What are the personality traits that allow someone to do biglaw without being miserable? Forum

[lolwutpar]

Self-worth: Now that I do interviews/recruiting - I can see that so many of these kids entire self-worth is tied into their careers/prestige. This forum doesn't help. First, let me say this - if you're a biglaw transactional attorney, you'll never impress me. All that means is you took the absolute safest route in life with a very well trodden path laid out for you. You were either not talented or brave enough to try and go after what you truly wanted in life.

So, working at Cravath over DLA Piper doesn't make you a better or sexier person. I'd rather work 2000 hours at DLA Piper than 3000 hours at Cravath any day, and I really don't give a fuck what some random lawyer thinks of me for it. Most of my self-worth is derived from my hobbies, my family and my network of friends. I've never gone on a date or met a friend and talked about my job beyond a quick sentence when asked what I do. I really think that when people tie their entire being down to their job, they get very miserable when things don't go their way or they mess up at work.

I'll end my soapbox by saying that many of the negative traits I've portrayed about myself (no talent, lack of risk appetite, not giving a shit etc.) are probably traits that you don't want to lean into if you want to be uber successful.

Great post and fuck the bolded part stung a bit because it couldn't be any more true and i'm slowly coming to that realization. Now time to accept it.

Oh no, you have job that pays gobs of money that will allow you to be debt free, buy a house, etc. in short order.

I disagree with the bolded if you're a minority, I don't think it's the safest route for them. Biglaw is hard to get into it and harder to stay in for minorities, and there's a lot of mental toll involved with getting into law school, going through law school, and then working in biglaw that I think is different for minorities. Still agree with the rest of your comments though

I think the bolded part is uniquely true for me, but I also think there are a lot more people out there like me in BigLaw than many realize. My family falls into the category of “truly wealthy” that is apparently unattainable through the law. I went to law school with millions already to my name, but I was 21, and quite frankly to embarrassed to touch it for anything other than eduction. I ended up in big law because for me it was a way to justify my inheritance. It is banal, but at least I earn a big salary and grind hard at work instead of sitting on a beach all day. That being said, I am fortunate enough to have a big enough backstop that once I gain a little more experience I plan on leaving and starting my own business. Maybe I just use it as a crutch to justify an unjustifiable inheritance, but for me BigLaw gives me a sense that I have put in a genuine effort to work for some of what I have. Sorry if I come off as an entitled ass in this post. Maybe I am.

I always told myself if I were in your position (independently wealthy), I would work in public interest or something like that. I wonder if I actually would, though...anyway, I know a lot of people like you as well. Became lawyers for family/personal cred, etc. Not super uncommon in L.A. or NYC I would imagine.

[CovidLurker]

Self-worth: Now that I do interviews/recruiting - I can see that so many of these kids entire self-worth is tied into their careers/prestige. This forum doesn't help. First, let me say this - if you're a biglaw transactional attorney, you'll never impress me. All that means is you took the absolute safest route in life with a very well trodden path laid out for you. You were either not talented or brave enough to try and go after what you truly wanted in life.

So, working at Cravath over DLA Piper doesn't make you a better or sexier person. I'd rather work 2000 hours at DLA Piper than 3000 hours at Cravath any day, and I really don't give a fuck what some random lawyer thinks of me for it. Most of my self-worth is derived from my hobbies, my family and my network of friends. I've never gone on a date or met a friend and talked about my job beyond a quick sentence when asked what I do. I really think that when people tie their entire being down to their job, they get very miserable when things don't go their way or they mess up at work.

I'll end my soapbox by saying that many of the negative traits I've portrayed about myself (no talent, lack of risk appetite, not giving a shit etc.) are probably traits that you don't want to lean into if you want to be uber successful.

Great post and fuck the bolded part stung a bit because it couldn't be any more true and i'm slowly coming to that realization. Now time to accept it.

Oh no, you have job that pays gobs of money that will allow you to be debt free, buy a house, etc. in short order.

I disagree with the bolded if you're a minority, I don't think it's the safest route for them. Biglaw is hard to get into it and harder to stay in for minorities, and there's a lot of mental toll involved with getting into law school, going through law school, and then working in biglaw that I think is different for minorities. Still agree with the rest of your comments though

OP of the bolded language here - I'm a minority. Obviously, I can't speak for all minorities, but I stand by what I said.

However, I want to make it clear that there's nothing wrong with that. I know minority associates that are using their biglaw salaries to support their families by paying their mom's rent, sending their younger siblings to college, etc. Those are all fantastic uses of your biglaw salary, and if I was in the same situation, I too would want to take the safest route to a high paying job . No one should feel shame for working in biglaw because they aren't "doing more". You're doing plenty and it's okay if you're not living your wildest dreams or up to whatever potential you believe you have.

In my experience, those associates aren't the ones that complain/bitch about biglaw. Usually the biggest complainers, are associates who grew up with a certain level of comfort and now have to either (A) work hard to maintain that lifestyle for the first time in their life or (B) downsize their lifestyle. My post was mainly addressed to this second group of associates.

With that being said, if you'll allow me to be controversial, I think biglaw is relatively minority friendly. We have miles to go in creating a truly inclusive community for all, but I think we're much farther along than a lot of other industries. Banking/finance is terrible for minorities, tech is terrible for women, getting a business loan as a minority is tough, etc. Due to most biglaw associates being very liberal and the efforts to recruit and retain minority associates by law firms, I actually believe minorities fare better in biglaw than many other white-collar settings. I want to reiterate that we have miles to go, and I have several ideas on how we can make biglaw more minority friendly that I hope I can one day express/implement at my own firm. But, that a completely different discussion.

[Anonymous User]

Self-worth: Now that I do interviews/recruiting - I can see that so many of these kids entire self-worth is tied into their careers/prestige. This forum doesn't help. First, let me say this - if you're a biglaw transactional attorney, you'll never impress me. All that means is you took the absolute safest route in life with a very well trodden path laid out for you. You were either not talented or brave enough to try and go after what you truly wanted in life.

So, working at Cravath over DLA Piper doesn't make you a better or sexier person. I'd rather work 2000 hours at DLA Piper than 3000 hours at Cravath any day, and I really don't give a fuck what some random lawyer thinks of me for it. Most of my self-worth is derived from my hobbies, my family and my network of friends. I've never gone on a date or met a friend and talked about my job beyond a quick sentence when asked what I do. I really think that when people tie their entire being down to their job, they get very miserable when things don't go their way or they mess up at work.

I'll end my soapbox by saying that many of the negative traits I've portrayed about myself (no talent, lack of risk appetite, not giving a shit etc.) are probably traits that you don't want to lean into if you want to be uber successful.

Great post and fuck the bolded part stung a bit because it couldn't be any more true and i'm slowly coming to that realization. Now time to accept it.

Oh no, you have job that pays gobs of money that will allow you to be debt free, buy a house, etc. in short order.

I disagree with the bolded if you're a minority, I don't think it's the safest route for them. Biglaw is hard to get into it and harder to stay in for minorities, and there's a lot of mental toll involved with getting into law school, going through law school, and then working in biglaw that I think is different for minorities. Still agree with the rest of your comments though

I think the bolded part is uniquely true for me, but I also think there are a lot more people out there like me in BigLaw than many realize. My family falls into the category of “truly wealthy” that is apparently unattainable through the law. I went to law school with millions already to my name, but I was 21, and quite frankly to embarrassed to touch it for anything other than eduction. I ended up in big law because for me it was a way to justify my inheritance. It is banal, but at least I earn a big salary and grind hard at work instead of sitting on a beach all day. That being said, I am fortunate enough to have a big enough backstop that once I gain a little more experience I plan on leaving and starting my own business. Maybe I just use it as a crutch to justify an unjustifiable inheritance, but for me BigLaw gives me a sense that I have put in a genuine effort to work for some of what I have. Sorry if I come off as an entitled ass in this post. Maybe I am.

I always told myself if I were in your position (independently wealthy), I would work in public interest or something like that. I wonder if I actually would, though...anyway, I know a lot of people like you as well. Became lawyers for family/personal cred, etc. Not super uncommon in L.A. or NYC I would imagine.

Indeed I am in LA. I thought about public interest, and if I were a better person maybe I would have gone that route. But I can’t deny that I enjoy many of the lifestyle perks that come with having money. And enjoying those perks becomes even less justifiable doing public interest when you and your peers are making $60k a year and they will probably always have some student debt.

[lolwutpar]

Self-worth: Now that I do interviews/recruiting - I can see that so many of these kids entire self-worth is tied into their careers/prestige. This forum doesn't help. First, let me say this - if you're a biglaw transactional attorney, you'll never impress me. All that means is you took the absolute safest route in life with a very well trodden path laid out for you. You were either not talented or brave enough to try and go after what you truly wanted in life.

So, working at Cravath over DLA Piper doesn't make you a better or sexier person. I'd rather work 2000 hours at DLA Piper than 3000 hours at Cravath any day, and I really don't give a fuck what some random lawyer thinks of me for it. Most of my self-worth is derived from my hobbies, my family and my network of friends. I've never gone on a date or met a friend and talked about my job beyond a quick sentence when asked what I do. I really think that when people tie their entire being down to their job, they get very miserable when things don't go their way or they mess up at work.

I'll end my soapbox by saying that many of the negative traits I've portrayed about myself (no talent, lack of risk appetite, not giving a shit etc.) are probably traits that you don't want to lean into if you want to be uber successful.

Great post and fuck the bolded part stung a bit because it couldn't be any more true and i'm slowly coming to that realization. Now time to accept it.

Oh no, you have job that pays gobs of money that will allow you to be debt free, buy a house, etc. in short order.

I disagree with the bolded if you're a minority, I don't think it's the safest route for them. Biglaw is hard to get into it and harder to stay in for minorities, and there's a lot of mental toll involved with getting into law school, going through law school, and then working in biglaw that I think is different for minorities. Still agree with the rest of your comments though

I think the bolded part is uniquely true for me, but I also think there are a lot more people out there like me in BigLaw than many realize. My family falls into the category of “truly wealthy” that is apparently unattainable through the law. I went to law school with millions already to my name, but I was 21, and quite frankly to embarrassed to touch it for anything other than eduction. I ended up in big law because for me it was a way to justify my inheritance. It is banal, but at least I earn a big salary and grind hard at work instead of sitting on a beach all day. That being said, I am fortunate enough to have a big enough backstop that once I gain a little more experience I plan on leaving and starting my own business. Maybe I just use it as a crutch to justify an unjustifiable inheritance, but for me BigLaw gives me a sense that I have put in a genuine effort to work for some of what I have. Sorry if I come off as an entitled ass in this post. Maybe I am.

I always told myself if I were in your position (independently wealthy), I would work in public interest or something like that. I wonder if I actually would, though...anyway, I know a lot of people like you as well. Became lawyers for family/personal cred, etc. Not super uncommon in L.A. or NYC I would imagine.

Indeed I am in LA. I thought about public interest, and if I were a better person maybe I would have gone that route. But I can’t deny that I enjoy many of the lifestyle perks that come with having money. And enjoying those perks becomes even less justifiable doing public interest when you and your peers are making $60k a year and they will probably always have some student debt.

You'd be surprised - a lot of PI attorneys have a partner who is a high earner (doctor, biglaw attorney or what have you). Still, a big sacrifice. Other wealthy attorneys I've worked with use their salary purely for vacation/nice things (often because their family bought them a house). That's a lot of nice things!

[target_corp]

I don't understand TLS's "new wave" thinking that BigLaw's misery is merely a matter of perspective or that there are no better jobs outside of law. It always smacks of deep denial to me, especially given the mental health stats of lawyers. Virtually every lawyer I've met is worse off mentally for being in law relative to their non-lawyer counterparts, and it's not close. Also, if you're on anxiety/depression medication or are a heavy drinker and are "happy" in BigLaw, well...

To the prompt, though, the happiest people I see have both an ability to manage people well enough to enable themselves to set reasonable (in the context of BigLaw) work/life boundaries and good judgment to scale how much detail and effort goes into things based on importance. The people with those two traits work the least for the most success relative to their peers, though they still ended up working a lot.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Self-worth: Now that I do interviews/recruiting - I can see that so many of these kids entire self-worth is tied into their careers/prestige. This forum doesn't help. First, let me say this - if you're a biglaw transactional attorney, you'll never impress me. All that means is you took the absolute safest route in life with a very well trodden path laid out for you. You were either not talented or brave enough to try and go after what you truly wanted in life.

A certain segment of people, including many self-hating Biglawyers, has this weird fetishization with a blaze-your-own-trail/"follow your passion" mindset. I presume it's most of them haven't actually watched anyone attempt the things they fantasize about.

An appetite for risk isn't a good thing if there's not a concurrent reward. Have you ever watched anyone attempt a "cool" career path or even just get a job that they thought would be vaguely rewarding? Did you think you were gonna be a creative director at some video or fashion or advertising spot? Most people just wind up churning out someone else's crappy ideas. Want to be teacher because you love inspiring the minds of the next generation? Welcome to budgets, administrations, parents and learning disabilities. Ready to design video games? You're now responsible for exactly contouring Samus Aran's left asscheek and you wouldn't believe how many weeks that takes. Gonna cure cancer? You've got 15 years of research to do on the SGLT1 protein before you can even attempt something (sorry, they did everything even remotely easy 40 years ago). Are you starting to get the picture yet? The aspiring chef is making the same broccoli rabe 82 consecutive times for tonight's Cheesecake Factory shift, the filmmaker and the charity worker who wants to give every diseased orphan a rescued pit bull are both spending most of them time sucking rich dick for funding, the future novelist fought through 18 months of writers' block just to get absolutely no one to pick up their draft of Fahrenheit 452: Electric Boogaloo, the president of the college politico club ready to take Congress by storm is now the legislative assistant for Congressman Who-Gives-A-Fuck writing a memo about a bill that changes some acronym's authority to regulate soybeans in flood zones. Or hey, go out on your own, find out how you know nothing about starting a business, Google the immense failure rate and desperately talk a bank into giving you anything close to what you need at an interest rate not outlawed by the Geneva Convention.

Talk to some people who actually do whatever it is you think is cool or entrepreneurial or "alpha" (no really, they say that) and the ones who are candid will tell you why it isn't what you, and probably they, thought it was. I find late twenties to be the best age for realizing that there are many more people who want to do cool things than actually will get to do them, and that everything else is a marketing gimmick (remember kids, not everyone can be an astronaut). All of those industries have their own 22-year-old versions of the 0L who think he's gonna "prosecute war crimes at the Hague" or whatever they have that's only done by 12 guys who all went to Yale in the '70s. It's a shitty eye-opening moment and the people who can say "Well, that didn't work out but I'm glad I tried it for X years, I'm sure being a highly-paid lawyer/doctor/I-banker would've been even worse, no regrets" are a distinct minority. And yeah, the grass is always greener no matter what you do, but to them, people who want to jump in to their actually-not-that-glamorous industry sound like what we hear when your friend goes "Actually the Greenberg Traurig interview went well; they seem so chill." And by the way, those are outcomes for people who *actually had an idea of what they wanted to do.* Law school is absolutely full of people who had no other identifiable passion. And yeah, it's a draw for those prioritizing money and status, but it's absolutely a default/fallback for most people (I know like...seven classmates/coworkers who actually, genuinely wanted to be lawyers).

Basic facts: most people don't like their jobs and it's not because they lack the "grit" (please stop putting this word in your Instagram captions) or whatever to get good ones; there's really just not enough jobs where people actually get to do whatever they want without a healthy dose of qualifications, luck and fallback money. The truth is, what most people want to do doesn't make money--not "have to live in Queens now" money, actually zero dollars--because most people would love to just sit around watching Netflix or browsing Reddit or rolling in the park with their dog and listening to a podcast and fucking a little and maybe eating some chicken wings. To that end, stacking cash for an eventual earlier retirement, or at least the flexibility for something easier while not having to worry about being genuinely poor is not a lack of "talent" or "bravery." It's doing some basic math and realizing that having a genuinely good chance at big money (provided you go to certain schools) is a huge advantage. There are a million ways to be sub-optimal in going through your Biglaw career, but that's not one of them. I'm not trying to tell anyone this job doesn't suck (it regularly does) or that you shouldn't leave as soon as thing it's having a seriously negative impact on your life (you should); I'm just trying that merely doing it isn't necessarily some kind of personal failure.

[CovidLurker]

Self-worth: Now that I do interviews/recruiting - I can see that so many of these kids entire self-worth is tied into their careers/prestige. This forum doesn't help. First, let me say this - if you're a biglaw transactional attorney, you'll never impress me. All that means is you took the absolute safest route in life with a very well trodden path laid out for you. You were either not talented or brave enough to try and go after what you truly wanted in life.

A certain segment of people, including many self-hating Biglawyers, has this weird fetishization with a blaze-your-own-trail/"follow your passion" mindset. I presume it's most of them haven't actually watched anyone attempt the things they fantasize about.

An appetite for risk isn't a good thing if there's not a concurrent reward. Have you ever watched anyone attempt a "cool" career path or even just get a job that they thought would be vaguely rewarding? Did you think you were gonna be a creative director at some video or fashion or advertising spot? Most people just wind up churning out someone else's crappy ideas. Want to be teacher because you love inspiring the minds of the next generation? Welcome to budgets, administrations, parents and learning disabilities. Ready to design video games? You're now responsible for exactly contouring Samus Aran's left asscheek and you wouldn't believe how many weeks that takes. Gonna cure cancer? You've got 15 years of research to do on the SGLT1 protein before you can even attempt something (sorry, they did everything even remotely easy 40 years ago). Are you starting to get the picture yet? The aspiring chef is making the same broccoli rabe 82 consecutive times for tonight's Cheesecake Factory shift, the filmmaker and the charity worker who wants to give every diseased orphan a rescued pit bull are both spending most of them time sucking rich dick for funding, the future novelist fought through 18 months of writers' block just to get absolutely no one to pick up their draft of Fahrenheit 452: Electric Boogaloo, the president of the college politico club ready to take Congress by storm is now the legislative assistant for Congressman Who-Gives-A-Fuck writing a memo about a bill that changes some acronym's authority to regulate soybeans in flood zones. Or hey, go out on your own, find out how you know nothing about starting a business, Google the immense failure rate and desperately talk a bank into giving you anything close to what you need at an interest rate not outlawed by the Geneva Convention.

Talk to some people who actually do whatever it is you think is cool or entrepreneurial or "alpha" (no really, they say that) and the ones who are candid will tell you why it isn't what you, and probably they, thought it was. I find late twenties to be the best age for realizing that there are many more people who want to do cool things than actually will get to do them, and that everything else is a marketing gimmick (remember kids, not everyone can be an astronaut). All of those industries have their own 22-year-old versions of the 0L who think he's gonna "prosecute war crimes at the Hague" or whatever they have that's only done by 12 guys who all went to Yale in the '70s. It's a shitty eye-opening moment and the people who can say "Well, that didn't work out but I'm glad I tried it for X years, I'm sure being a highly-paid lawyer/doctor/I-banker would've been even worse, no regrets" are a distinct minority. And yeah, the grass is always greener no matter what you do, but to them, people who want to jump in to their actually-not-that-glamorous industry sound like what we hear when your friend goes "Actually the Greenberg Traurig interview went well; they seem so chill." And by the way, those are outcomes for people who *actually had an idea of what they wanted to do.* Law school is absolutely full of people who had no other identifiable passion. And yeah, it's a draw for those prioritizing money and status, but it's absolutely a default/fallback for most people (I know like...seven classmates/coworkers who actually, genuinely wanted to be lawyers).

Basic facts: most people don't like their jobs and it's not because they lack the "grit" (please stop putting this word in your Instagram captions) or whatever to get good ones; there's really just not enough jobs where people actually get to do whatever they want without a healthy dose of qualifications, luck and fallback money. The truth is, what most people want to do doesn't make money--not "have to live in Queens now" money, actually zero dollars--because most people would love to just sit around watching Netflix or browsing Reddit or rolling in the park with their dog and listening to a podcast and fucking a little and maybe eating some chicken wings. To that end, stacking cash for an eventual earlier retirement, or at least the flexibility for something easier while not having to worry about being genuinely poor is not a lack of "talent" or "bravery." It's doing some basic math and realizing that having a genuinely good chance at big money (provided you go to certain schools) is a huge advantage. There are a million ways to be sub-optimal in going through your Biglaw career, but that's not one of them. I'm not trying to tell anyone this job doesn't suck (it regularly does) or that you shouldn't leave as soon as thing it's having a seriously negative impact on your life (you should); I'm just trying that merely doing it isn't necessarily some kind of personal failure.

Not sure if this was addressed to me, or if you're just venting personal frustrations here, but I agree that it's okay to work in biglaw and make money? Never said that was a bad thing.

My point was that you shouldn't wrap up your self-image/ego with your law firm . You work in biglaw. It's a good job - you make a lot of money. Nothing more; nothing less. Once you start obsessing about prestige and tie your ego up in this or start to believe you're doing something really special/noteworthy - you're more likely to be unhappy when things don't go your way. Chances are, things won't go your way in the end.

[a male human]

A few traits:

Introversion: I don't mean being socially awkward, but the type of person who is content to spend a day alone with their thoughts. Especially as a junior associate, you will spend a lot of time alone going through documents.

Ambition: Most people who are too cynical going in burn out pretty quick. Even if the odds are stacked against you to make partner, those who excel tend to at least have that ambition.

Genuine interest in the work: The vast majority of folks are going to have a tough time getting excited about most biglaw work, but those who do best find something about them that interest them. They get invested in the case even if their piece may be just mind numbing small details.

I like this answer

[Madden_Arps]

Prior work experience. It's already hard enough to work biglaw hours / acclimate to the professional services client -- if you're also acclimating to working a basic office job it's that much worse. The happiest biglawyers I know are people who came from paths like Big 4 audit where they worked 80% of the hours of biglaw for 30% of the pay while working on even more mind-numbing material.