Stub Year Confusion Forum

[Anonymous User]

Stub here; found out today that I was one of the busiest juniors. Is there a way that I can turn down work this early in the game?

[Pneumonia]

Stub here; found out today that I was one of the busiest juniors. Is there a way that I can turn down work this early in the game?

Nope. Not unless you're actually too busy for it.

[Dcc617]

Stub here; found out today that I was one of the busiest juniors. Is there a way that I can turn down work this early in the game?

Nope. Not unless you're actually too busy for it.

But, depending on firm culture, you should turn it down if you're too busy for it. People won't remember you saying no on a deal one time, but they will remember if you're too slammed to do it and are terrible on a deal they're staffed with you on. Again, depending on firm culture re saying no.

[Pneumonia]

Stub here; found out today that I was one of the busiest juniors. Is there a way that I can turn down work this early in the game?

Nope. Not unless you're actually too busy for it.

But, depending on firm culture, you should turn it down if you're too busy for it. People won't remember you saying no on a deal one time, but they will remember if you're too slammed to do it and are terrible on a deal they're staffed with you on. Again, depending on firm culture re saying no.

Totally agree. I meant only that there's no way to reclaim a slow stub year once you've actually got work.

[Anonymous User]

Is it normal to be one of the busiest juniors as a stub

[Dcc617]

Is it normal to be one of the busiest juniors as a stub

Luck of the draw.

[Anonymous User]

Is it normal to be one of the busiest juniors as a stub

Seems random. Another stub in my class has been slammed starting the day they gave us our first assignments. Had to work the weekend after orientation. I know for a fact he's busier than a lot of the first years (soon to be second years). Most of the stubs are nowhere near that busy, though.

[Anonymous User]

I guess I got the shorter end of the stick. Other stubs in the group have little to no work

[polareagle]

I guess I got the shorter end of the stick. Other stubs in the group have little to no work

(Lit perspective, no idea about transactional equivalent) If you're lucky and play things right, you can use this to your advantage. As people said above, only say no if it's culturally appropriate. (Ask a junior or midlevel about that.) If it's kosher, use that ability and the good reputation you're hopefully building to get on better matters and (more importantly) avoid crappy ones. Your colleagues who are super slow can't say no--they have to take whatever shit is sent their way. You at least maybe have more options and can credibly turn down that crappy MDL or whatever other bad case is just looking for bodies.

[Anonymous User]

What is a stub?

[TigerIsBack]

I guess I got the shorter end of the stick. Other stubs in the group have little to no work

But you also have to remember that the normal biglaw curve is that it takes 6, 12, 18 months and sometimes longer to feel any sense of competency and knowing what you're doing. And most stubs start very slow and have at least 3-6 months of being incredibly slow and enjoying a massive paycheck. You're effectively cutting your learning curve by a few months.

While you can't ever get your stub year back, there's also no substitution for getting reps, because it's the only way to learn. And being incredibly slow as a stub is still stressful no matter how much people on here tell you it's normal, so you probably wouldn't be enjoying your time that much anyway.

[avenuem]

This post by a first-year associate is disputed.

You know, reactions to your comments in one word are acceptable. Not every comment anyone ever makes has to be this super long-reasoned, eloquent response that meets your standards. This isn't court.

And assuming you're "miles ahead of him"? Both kind of a wild thing to do, given you don't know him/her, and because you were just ridiculing him/her for putting YOU down. Oh, and also wild because anyone who makes assumptions like that is arrogant in the worst way -- unfoundedly arrogant.

You've done well in life up to this point academically and professionally. But at the end of the day, how you treat people and how people remember you is what matters. You think people don't think of you as a dick outside of this forum...you must either be incredibly good at hiding this arrogance, condescension, and crazy need to be right, or you might wsnt to consider that maybe people (especially people who aren't super close to you, like your colleagues, etc.) don't feel about you the way you think they do.

I'll take "right" about being able to hide my dickness in person for 100, nerds.

There's a reason I got offers at a T14 and V5, as opposed to getting booted for being a dick, while you and the rest sit here whining. Sorry you aren't as accomplished.

[goldenflash19]

You know, reactions to your comments in one word are acceptable. Not every comment anyone ever makes has to be this super long-reasoned, eloquent response that meets your standards. This isn't court.

And assuming you're "miles ahead of him"? Both kind of a wild thing to do, given you don't know him/her, and because you were just ridiculing him/her for putting YOU down. Oh, and also wild because anyone who makes assumptions like that is arrogant in the worst way -- unfoundedly arrogant.

You've done well in life up to this point academically and professionally. But at the end of the day, how you treat people and how people remember you is what matters. You think people don't think of you as a dick outside of this forum...you must either be incredibly good at hiding this arrogance, condescension, and crazy need to be right, or you might wsnt to consider that maybe people (especially people who aren't super close to you, like your colleagues, etc.) don't feel about you the way you think they do.

I'll take "right" about being able to hide my dickness in person for 100, nerds.

There's a reason I got offers at a T14 and V5, as opposed to getting booted for being a dick, while you and the rest sit here whining. Sorry you aren't as accomplished.

Your posts are obnoxious and scream troll. You may have done “perfect work” on your first few projects, but a time will come when you mess something up. Regardless if you went to a T14 (I note you didn’t say YSH...) or work at a V5 (no Watchell?), you will botch something one day. And in all likelihood, you will either (1) not be be able to handle it and/or (2) not have someone to back you up the way you would if you had an ounce of humility.

[Anonymous User]

avenuem, very seriously, I don’t know how you come off in person, but you should do some self-reflection to make sure you aren’t alienating your coworkers. You have every right to be proud of where you’ve gotten, and it’s great that you take pride in your work, but the way you fail in Biglaw is when nobody wants to work with you. Usually that happens because the person is incompetent, but if everyone thinks you have a bad attitude, that’s just as bad (and sometimes worse as a junior).

(Obvious dick who has no idea how people talk about him and apparently makes a habit out of regularly pissing off every single person he interacts with online for some reason, confused in six years about why no one liking you will disqualify you from partnership even if you nail every stub year comma)

I have a hard time thinking that if you're like this online, none of it shows through in real life.

I am an ASD poster from this other thread and this thread is really worrying me. Is biglaw really a popularity contest? What about good quality work? viewtopic.php?f=23&t=307870

I hope you three are fellow ASD-types who are LARPing as socially cool online. It's fine I used to do that. It made me feel better about my ASD to yell at someone online for not having social talents. Eventually, I got tested and realized that the reason I spend 2-4 hours a day online on forums, was because I had ASD and over time I've come to accept it. If you're not ASD LARPers, then biglaw isn't the career for me. I can win a detail-oriented skills contest, but not a popularity contest. I thought the popularity contest stuff didn't happen until you made partner and had to develop business but you all are saying it starts in your first year?

It seems really stupid to give work to a likable person over a more-competent person but if that's the way biglaw is I guess I better get my resume ready.

[Anonymous User]

You know, reactions to your comments in one word are acceptable. Not every comment anyone ever makes has to be this super long-reasoned, eloquent response that meets your standards. This isn't court.

And assuming you're "miles ahead of him"? Both kind of a wild thing to do, given you don't know him/her, and because you were just ridiculing him/her for putting YOU down. Oh, and also wild because anyone who makes assumptions like that is arrogant in the worst way -- unfoundedly arrogant.

You've done well in life up to this point academically and professionally. But at the end of the day, how you treat people and how people remember you is what matters. You think people don't think of you as a dick outside of this forum...you must either be incredibly good at hiding this arrogance, condescension, and crazy need to be right, or you might wsnt to consider that maybe people (especially people who aren't super close to you, like your colleagues, etc.) don't feel about you the way you think they do.

I'll take "right" about being able to hide my dickness in person for 100, nerds.

There's a reason I got offers at a T14 and V5, as opposed to getting booted for being a dick, while you and the rest sit here whining. Sorry you aren't as accomplished.

Sorry someone hurt you in your past

[MrTooToo]

avenuem, very seriously, I don’t know how you come off in person, but you should do some self-reflection to make sure you aren’t alienating your coworkers. You have every right to be proud of where you’ve gotten, and it’s great that you take pride in your work, but the way you fail in Biglaw is when nobody wants to work with you. Usually that happens because the person is incompetent, but if everyone thinks you have a bad attitude, that’s just as bad (and sometimes worse as a junior).

(Obvious dick who has no idea how people talk about him and apparently makes a habit out of regularly pissing off every single person he interacts with online for some reason, confused in six years about why no one liking you will disqualify you from partnership even if you nail every stub year comma)

I have a hard time thinking that if you're like this online, none of it shows through in real life.

I am an ASD poster from this other thread and this thread is really worrying me. Is biglaw really a popularity contest? What about good quality work? viewtopic.php?f=23&t=307870

I hope you three are fellow ASD-types who are LARPing as socially cool online. It's fine I used to do that. It made me feel better about my ASD to yell at someone online for not having social talents. Eventually, I got tested and realized that the reason I spend 2-4 hours a day online on forums, was because I had ASD and over time I've come to accept it. If you're not ASD LARPers, then biglaw isn't the career for me. I can win a detail-oriented skills contest, but not a popularity contest. I thought the popularity contest stuff didn't happen until you made partner and had to develop business but you all are saying it starts in your first year?

It seems really stupid to give work to a likable person over a more-competent person but if that's the way biglaw is I guess I better get my resume ready.

Biglaw is a popularity contest and it becomes more of one as you become more senior (as an associate; it doesn't just magically start mattering when you are a partner). Because--life insight incoming--life is a popularity contest. It doesn't matter how sharply you find commas in a document, you have to be someone that people enjoy spending time with, can have a beer with, want to build a professional relationship with in order to thrive both within the firm and with clients. You can get away with being an autistic perfect comma robot as a junior, but as you become more senior, and especially if you have any aim to become a partner, you need to be much more than that. No one cares if you can find the perfect precedent if you're unpleasant to be around or interact with. Emotional intelligence, social networking, and general affability matter in biglaw a lot if you want to last long term.

[nixy]

avenuem, very seriously, I don’t know how you come off in person, but you should do some self-reflection to make sure you aren’t alienating your coworkers. You have every right to be proud of where you’ve gotten, and it’s great that you take pride in your work, but the way you fail in Biglaw is when nobody wants to work with you. Usually that happens because the person is incompetent, but if everyone thinks you have a bad attitude, that’s just as bad (and sometimes worse as a junior).

(Obvious dick who has no idea how people talk about him and apparently makes a habit out of regularly pissing off every single person he interacts with online for some reason, confused in six years about why no one liking you will disqualify you from partnership even if you nail every stub year comma)

I have a hard time thinking that if you're like this online, none of it shows through in real life.

I am an ASD poster from this other thread and this thread is really worrying me. Is biglaw really a popularity contest? What about good quality work? viewtopic.php?f=23&t=307870

I hope you three are fellow ASD-types who are LARPing as socially cool online. It's fine I used to do that. It made me feel better about my ASD to yell at someone online for not having social talents. Eventually, I got tested and realized that the reason I spend 2-4 hours a day online on forums, was because I had ASD and over time I've come to accept it. If you're not ASD LARPers, then biglaw isn't the career for me. I can win a detail-oriented skills contest, but not a popularity contest. I thought the popularity contest stuff didn't happen until you made partner and had to develop business but you all are saying it starts in your first year?

It seems really stupid to give work to a likable person over a more-competent person but if that's the way biglaw is I guess I better get my resume ready.

So a bunch of reactions:

1) hanging out on forums online isn’t a symptom of ASD. There may be reasons why it especially works for people with ASD but that doesn’t mean everyone who participates in online forums is ASD. Nor am I LARPing as socially cool because I’m not making any claims that I am socially cool (I’m not).

2) Getting along with people (not necessarily being the most popular, but getting along) almost always matters, not just in biglaw, and no matter how good your work product is, but

3) being ASD and being an arrogant dick aren’t the same thing. I’m not trying to minimize the social effects of ASD (nor am I an expert on it), and realize that neurotypical people may not get you, but not getting all the standard social cues isn’t the same as thinking you’re better than other people. However,

4) keep in mind that you may well be competing with people who can do excellent work and excel at the social side. I mean we’re talking about lawyers so maybe not (jk), but it’s not an either/or proposition. Giving work to the more likable person may not require accepting lower quality work, especially depending on what kind of work is being asked for. Moreover, sometimes what’s excellent work is subjective.

5) In the end, you do you. All you can do is your best. Producing high quality work - especially in contexts where skill matters more - is absolutely important and makes you valued. Whether and how much the social side matters will depend on the culture of your specific firm, who you work for, and how strongly you differ socially. Biglaw is also an industry with a lot of turnover, it’s baked in to the model, so probably everyone should always have their resume ready. Lots of people get laid off or eased out regardless of social ability.

[Anonymous User]

avenuem, very seriously, I don’t know how you come off in person, but you should do some self-reflection to make sure you aren’t alienating your coworkers. You have every right to be proud of where you’ve gotten, and it’s great that you take pride in your work, but the way you fail in Biglaw is when nobody wants to work with you. Usually that happens because the person is incompetent, but if everyone thinks you have a bad attitude, that’s just as bad (and sometimes worse as a junior).

(Obvious dick who has no idea how people talk about him and apparently makes a habit out of regularly pissing off every single person he interacts with online for some reason, confused in six years about why no one liking you will disqualify you from partnership even if you nail every stub year comma)

I have a hard time thinking that if you're like this online, none of it shows through in real life.

I am an ASD poster from this other thread and this thread is really worrying me. Is biglaw really a popularity contest? What about good quality work? viewtopic.php?f=23&t=307870

I hope you three are fellow ASD-types who are LARPing as socially cool online. It's fine I used to do that. It made me feel better about my ASD to yell at someone online for not having social talents. Eventually, I got tested and realized that the reason I spend 2-4 hours a day online on forums, was because I had ASD and over time I've come to accept it. If you're not ASD LARPers, then biglaw isn't the career for me. I can win a detail-oriented skills contest, but not a popularity contest. I thought the popularity contest stuff didn't happen until you made partner and had to develop business but you all are saying it starts in your first year?

It seems really stupid to give work to a likable person over a more-competent person but if that's the way biglaw is I guess I better get my resume ready.

4) keep in mind that you may well be competing with people who can do excellent work and excel at the social side. I mean we’re talking about lawyers so maybe not (jk), but it’s not an either/or proposition. Giving work to the more likable person may not require accepting lower quality work, especially depending on what kind of work is being asked for. Moreover, sometimes what’s excellent work is subjective.

I'm the anon directly above. I think this is the key quote and it was a point I was going to make too but I didn't want to gild the lily. In almost every large law firm outside of very niche practice groups, people don't have to choose. Meaning, when we are staffing cases, there are enough excellent, meticulous, detailed-oriented associates who also are at least reasonably sociable, friendly, and someone who you want to grab lunch or a drink with when traveling on a case. It's not an either/or proposition.

Also, and this may be more controversial, even if there is a forced choice between the B+/A- grade work from someone you'd want to sit down with over lunch vs. the A+ grade work from someone you can't interact with, partners and clients both seem to gravitate toward the former rather than the latter.

I'm not trying to place a normative value on any of this I'm just reporting my observations from practicing at a V10 for 10 years.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

avenuem, very seriously, I don’t know how you come off in person, but you should do some self-reflection to make sure you aren’t alienating your coworkers. You have every right to be proud of where you’ve gotten, and it’s great that you take pride in your work, but the way you fail in Biglaw is when nobody wants to work with you. Usually that happens because the person is incompetent, but if everyone thinks you have a bad attitude, that’s just as bad (and sometimes worse as a junior).

(Obvious dick who has no idea how people talk about him and apparently makes a habit out of regularly pissing off every single person he interacts with online for some reason, confused in six years about why no one liking you will disqualify you from partnership even if you nail every stub year comma)

I have a hard time thinking that if you're like this online, none of it shows through in real life.

I am an ASD poster from this other thread and this thread is really worrying me. Is biglaw really a popularity contest? What about good quality work? viewtopic.php?f=23&t=307870

I hope you three are fellow ASD-types who are LARPing as socially cool online. It's fine I used to do that. It made me feel better about my ASD to yell at someone online for not having social talents. Eventually, I got tested and realized that the reason I spend 2-4 hours a day online on forums, was because I had ASD and over time I've come to accept it. If you're not ASD LARPers, then biglaw isn't the career for me. I can win a detail-oriented skills contest, but not a popularity contest. I thought the popularity contest stuff didn't happen until you made partner and had to develop business but you all are saying it starts in your first year?

It seems really stupid to give work to a likable person over a more-competent person but if that's the way biglaw is I guess I better get my resume ready.

Nixy sort of covered all of these, but:

-First of all, I'm just blown away at the thought that spending *any* time talking about law firm workplace conduct online, much less megaposting on an actual law forum like me, Elston, and nixy, could be described as "LARPing as socially cool."

-Second, although perception of others is an important part of broader social skills, it really doesn't take any amount of either to recognize that The Talented Mr. Stubley is being a dick, especially seeing as how he explicitly admitted it.

-Third, being well-liked isn't only relevant when you're up for partner. People who are better-liked get more opportunities to pick what kind of work they do and are more forgiven for mistakes/mediocre performance. These things aren't as relevant when you're a first-year, but (A) they'll become relevant long before you're up for partner and (B) first/early impressions do matter and do last.

-Fourth, as said below, everything in life is a popularity contest to varying extents, and people are always going to get an edge for being more charismatic, more attractive, more Insert-Favored-Trait-Here. Anyone who hasn't realized that by their twenties is behind the curve, and if for whatever reason it hasn't become obvious to you by observation, it would behoove you to spend some team reading about it. It's just a fact of life, and by itself, it's not a good reason to leave Biglaw, which is a career path that is significantly *less* reliant on social skills and niceties than average, and significantly more tolerant of neurodivergents and just general oddballs, so long as they hit their hours and italicize all the right commas.

General rule for life: Play to your strengths. Biglaw is full of partners who would crap their pants at a summer lunch who were promoted (and developed books of business) simply because they're really, really good lawyers. If you're better at checking cross-references than chatting at the Keurig, then just focus on doing that and not making any unforced errors (like, say, telling everyone else you're better than them). Being quiet, humble and eager to learn are not the only cornerstones of success, but they're pretty good ways to last as long as in this job as you're likely to want it. That said, social skills are just that--skills. Some people have more natural talent but anyone who wants to improve can do so with practice and study, ASD or not. Lots of guides out there for people who feel like they have trouble navigating the workplace.

[ClubberLang]

avenuem, very seriously, I don’t know how you come off in person, but you should do some self-reflection to make sure you aren’t alienating your coworkers. You have every right to be proud of where you’ve gotten, and it’s great that you take pride in your work, but the way you fail in Biglaw is when nobody wants to work with you. Usually that happens because the person is incompetent, but if everyone thinks you have a bad attitude, that’s just as bad (and sometimes worse as a junior).

(Obvious dick who has no idea how people talk about him and apparently makes a habit out of regularly pissing off every single person he interacts with online for some reason, confused in six years about why no one liking you will disqualify you from partnership even if you nail every stub year comma)

I have a hard time thinking that if you're like this online, none of it shows through in real life.

I am an ASD poster from this other thread and this thread is really worrying me. Is biglaw really a popularity contest? What about good quality work? viewtopic.php?f=23&t=307870

I hope you three are fellow ASD-types who are LARPing as socially cool online. It's fine I used to do that. It made me feel better about my ASD to yell at someone online for not having social talents. Eventually, I got tested and realized that the reason I spend 2-4 hours a day online on forums, was because I had ASD and over time I've come to accept it. If you're not ASD LARPers, then biglaw isn't the career for me. I can win a detail-oriented skills contest, but not a popularity contest. I thought the popularity contest stuff didn't happen until you made partner and had to develop business but you all are saying it starts in your first year?

It seems really stupid to give work to a likable person over a more-competent person but if that's the way biglaw is I guess I better get my resume ready.

Competence and likeability are not detached. As you get more senior, soft skills like the ability to talk with clients, manage associates, and deal with opposing counsel become more important. A person that partners can put in front of a client is nearly always going to get the better opportunities. That said, these soft skills can be learned, and there is certainly a place in biglaw for odd people who, for example, write meticulous briefs. My point here is that part of being competent is being able to go in front of a client, and at the very junior level, likeability may be a reasonable proxy for that.

[nixy]

I also just wanted to make clear that I define “getting along with people” pretty broadly. You don’t have to have the charisma of a Hollywood star or people skills of the born salesperson. I just don’t want you holding yourself to a standard most neurotypical types can’t meet, and then deeming yourself a failure on that end (so why even try).

[tlsguy2020]

I'm not trying to place a normative value on any of this I'm just reporting my observations from practicing at a V10 for 10 years.

avenuem's 3 months at a V5 > anon's 10 years at V10

[avenuem]

This post by a first-year associate is disputed.

I'm not trying to place a normative value on any of this I'm just reporting my observations from practicing at a V10 for 10 years.

avenuem's 3 months at a V5 > anon's 10 years at V10

Why yes, yes they are. I'm glad that in just one thread I made a reputation as the Hated Prince of TLS, Slayer of T2s, Father of T3s, First in Class, Last to Cry, King of the North, the One True Poster and Partner.

To the ASD poster, I like you. You get it. Monocromatic's response to you is mostly right. Being liked is important and the people here would be surprised to learn that I get that point and act on it in real. You can do that and still be so excellent that people are jealous online. I would tell you about the Writ of Mandamus that I'm drafting, but then we would have two more pages of tears.

[nixy]

Oh bless your heart. No one's jealous of you, honey.

[LawrenceGazebo]

I'm not trying to place a normative value on any of this I'm just reporting my observations from practicing at a V10 for 10 years.

avenuem's 3 months at a V5 > anon's 10 years at V10

Why yes, yes they are. I'm glad that in just one thread I made a reputation as the Hated Prince of TLS, Slayer of T2s, Father of T3s, First in Class, Last to Cry, King of the North, the One True Poster and Partner.

To the ASD poster, I like you. You get it. Monocromatic's response to you is mostly right. Being liked is important and the people here would be surprised to learn that I get that point and act on it in real. You can do that and still be so excellent that people are jealous online. I would tell you about the Writ of Mandamus that I'm drafting, but then we would have two more pages of tears.

Pitiful.