2020 End of Year Bonuses Forum

[rokiv]

Question - if you give notice before bonuses are officially paid out, but it gets paid out during your notice period and before your last day, you still get it, right?

If it gets paid out after you leave, but you leave after it gets announced, you get nada?

Does this depend on firm practice?

Probably firm-dependent, but in the traditional sense it’s how you described it. Got to be at the firm to get your bonus.

[Anonymous User]

Question - if you give notice before bonuses are officially paid out, but it gets paid out during your notice period and before your last day, you still get it, right?

If it gets paid out after you leave, but you leave after it gets announced, you get nada?

Does this depend on firm practice?

Probably firm-dependent, but in the traditional sense it’s how you described it. Got to be at the firm to get your bonus.

Same -- would assume it's firm-dependent, but general rule is it's safer not to give notice until the money is in your account. I gave notice at my old firm the day my bonus hit. Someone else who left around the same time gave notice after bonus announcements but before payout and left shortly after bonuses were paid and apparently still got the bonus. Risky move though.

[NoLongerALurker]

I always love when people give notice the day bonuses hit. It's such a "Ugh, when I go out, I want to go out *that* way" move.

[Anonymous User]

I always love when people give notice the day bonuses hit. It's such a "Ugh, when I go out, I want to go out *that* way" move.

Or it's a move like in my case where we're in the middle of year-end holidays, I'm already working all day instead of spending time with my family, another deal is picking up in earnest and about to require a couple all-nighters, conflicts just cleared at the new firm, and there's no reason not to just call it (i.e., there is a reason why I'm lateraling out, and not continuing on with this BS is the top reason).

[Anonymous User]

I always love when people give notice the day bonuses hit. It's such a "Ugh, when I go out, I want to go out *that* way" move.

Or it's a move like in my case where we're in the middle of year-end holidays, I'm already working all day instead of spending time with my family, another deal is picking up in earnest and about to require a couple all-nighters, conflicts just cleared at the new firm, and there's no reason not to just call it (i.e., there is a reason why I'm lateraling out, and not continuing on with this BS is the top reason).

This seems incredibly short-sighted. If you're a mid-level or higher you'd be leaving an insane amount of money on the table if your firm tries to fuck you over. No way that you can know for sure they won't. And they very clearly could. I've seen people fired the day they give notice for giving notice the day they got paid, so to think you wouldn't for doing it in the interim period seems very risky.

You also almost definitely aren't going to get yourself fired for slacking between now and bonus pay-out, so just push back. Blow deadlines. Don't just give notice now or as soon as they're announced.

[Lestersandy]

we're in the middle of year-end holidays, I'm already working all day instead of spending time with my family, another deal is picking up in earnest and about to require a couple all-nighters

Ah, yes. the yearly holiday tradition.

[NoLongerALurker]

So is the whole world just waiting to see how Cravath deals with synthesizing fall and year end bonuses before anyone else announces?

[rokiv]

So is the whole world just waiting to see how Cravath deals with synthesizing fall and year end bonuses before anyone else announces?

My sense is that it’s not Cravath specific, but I do think most firms in the top-tier are waiting to see how it’s handled by those firms that didn’t do special covid bonuses. It also seems like at least some partners are concerned about the optics of giving larger bonuses (rightfully or no), so maybe they’re just waiting for someone else to take the heat for being the first mover.

[Anonymous User]

So is the whole world just waiting to see how Cravath deals with synthesizing fall and year end bonuses before anyone else announces?

My sense is that it’s not Cravath specific, but I do think most firms in the top-tier are waiting to see how it’s handled by those firms that didn’t do special covid bonuses. It also seems like at least some partners are concerned about the optics of giving larger bonuses (rightfully or no), so maybe they’re just waiting for someone else to take the heat for being the first mover.

It’s a foregone conclusion the large firms will match at least 2019 plus 2020 fall. There is no world where Cravath, Cleary, PW etc don’t match. Especially when every firm is up up up in profits.

EDIT SORRY FOR ANON. Fat fingers.

[rokiv]

So is the whole world just waiting to see how Cravath deals with synthesizing fall and year end bonuses before anyone else announces?

My sense is that it’s not Cravath specific, but I do think most firms in the top-tier are waiting to see how it’s handled by those firms that didn’t do special covid bonuses. It also seems like at least some partners are concerned about the optics of giving larger bonuses (rightfully or no), so maybe they’re just waiting for someone else to take the heat for being the first mover.

It’s a foregone conclusion the large firms will match at least 2019 plus 2020 fall. There is no world where Cravath, Cleary, PW etc don’t match. Especially when every firm is up up up in profits.

EDIT SORRY FOR ANON. Fat fingers.

Oh completely agree, my point was that there might be some unease with being the first mover this year given the lack of a clear precedent.

[PrinterInk]

Kirkland peeps, from someone thinking about lateraling: do the bigger bonuses make up for the 350-hour months? It strikes me that it would take Wachtell money for 350 hours not to be absolutely painful.

no

no

Imagine trading your mental and physical health to make 400k per year instead of 300k per year. It’s not worth it even for wachtell money.

[Dcc617]

So is the whole world just waiting to see how Cravath deals with synthesizing fall and year end bonuses before anyone else announces?

My sense is that it’s not Cravath specific, but I do think most firms in the top-tier are waiting to see how it’s handled by those firms that didn’t do special covid bonuses. It also seems like at least some partners are concerned about the optics of giving larger bonuses (rightfully or no), so maybe they’re just waiting for someone else to take the heat for being the first mover.

It’s a foregone conclusion the large firms will match at least 2019 plus 2020 fall. There is no world where Cravath, Cleary, PW etc don’t match. Especially when every firm is up up up in profits.

EDIT SORRY FOR ANON. Fat fingers.

Is it a foregone conclusion?

[Popopo2019]

I am the one with the fattest fingers above. For name brand nyc firms and their peers yes it is. These firms are having record year and make record profits. Even Kirkland, who would sell its brand to Costco if it meant 1% additional PPP, will do the right thing to retain associates and attract laterals/law students. The markets are doing well, so clients are doing well generally (or are in BK and will pay their bills eventually) and many of the firms who haven’t paid have all but said they’ll make good at EOY (“take into account” is some legal doublespeak bs that gives them some wiggle room, but what 3rd year billing 2200 hours at Cleary won’t move to DPW or KE if Cleary is no longer market paying by 5 figures?). I don’t know where the cutoff will be but I’d bet my bonus that Cravath/Cleary/PW/KE peers will pay up.

PM me if you want to take the bet. Happy to take your money.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland peeps, from someone thinking about lateraling: do the bigger bonuses make up for the 350-hour months? It strikes me that it would take Wachtell money for 350 hours not to be absolutely painful.

no

no

no

To flesh this out, an average quality associate billing 2000 hours here gets somewhere around a 1.2x market bonus (maybe 1.3x some years, 1.15x others). An average quality associate billing 2500 is probably getting 1.6x or so. So take 40% of your market bonus and divide by 500 for the hourly rate of those extra, very painful hours.

If you get a better merit rating and are a high biller, you can approach 2x with the bonus. Still probably not worth it considering you won’t know your rating until the bonus billing year is over.

[Anonymous User]

All those dollars are also in a 40%+ marginal tax bracket in most places (once you add on state/local). More work for more money is an increasingly crappy trade after 2000 hours.

Also as a KE associate I have no faith they will do right by us, even though I understand intellectually that the incentives say they should.

[Definitely Not North]

love that tls these days is basically just the Kirkland break room

[Anonymous User]

So is the whole world just waiting to see how Cravath deals with synthesizing fall and year end bonuses before anyone else announces?

My sense is that it’s not Cravath specific, but I do think most firms in the top-tier are waiting to see how it’s handled by those firms that didn’t do special covid bonuses. It also seems like at least some partners are concerned about the optics of giving larger bonuses (rightfully or no), so maybe they’re just waiting for someone else to take the heat for being the first mover.

It’s a foregone conclusion the large firms will match at least 2019 plus 2020 fall. There is no world where Cravath, Cleary, PW etc don’t match. Especially when every firm is up up up in profits.

EDIT SORRY FOR ANON. Fat fingers.

Is it a foregone conclusion?

I’d say yes. If you recall, GDC a while back made a vague announcement about paying regular and “special” bonuses in December. The firm is now telling associates (e.g., at town hall meetings) that means a Covid bonus will be paid on top of the regular year-end bonus to associates “in good standing.” I think the only question at this point for V20 firms is whether “market” for regular bonuses will be at 2019 levels, and maybe what criteria will be used to determine who gets a covid bonus (at the DPW scale) at year end.

[Anonymous User]

Can we please keep this thread to actual bonus announcements and not have a repeat of the COVID bonus thread

[Anonymous User]

At a town hall this week Davis Polk confirmed existing guidance re: bonuses but didn’t say anything around timing.

[Usernameavailable]

At a town hall this week Davis Polk confirmed existing guidance re: bonuses but didn’t say anything around timing.

Not really relevant to most of us here, but this has to be the worst bonus structure I've ever heard of. You only get credit for hours that were collected by the firm and your bonus is spread out all the way till July of the next year. That is crazy.
https://abovethelaw.com/2020/11/goldberg-bonus/

[Anonymous User]

At a town hall this week Davis Polk confirmed existing guidance re: bonuses but didn’t say anything around timing.

Not really relevant to most of us here, but this has to be the worst bonus structure I've ever heard of. You only get credit for hours that were collected by the firm and your bonus is spread out all the way till July of the next year. That is crazy.
https://abovethelaw.com/2020/11/goldberg-bonus/

That's messed up. Associates have no control over what hours actually get collected.

[rokiv]

Anybody got any news?

[cisscum]

Do w ethink well hear before the holidays?

[rokiv]

Do w ethink well hear before the holidays?

If I had to put money on it I’d say today or tomorrow, but who knows at this point.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath sent email. Last year's bonus + typical DPW scale for fall bonus layered on top.