Low Cost of Living but 190K Payscale Forum

[crazywafflez]

Just throwing in a point for Wilmington. Friend just got an offer from a firm there- 180k; they plan on living elsewhere though and commuting in. Not sure what prices are like there but assuming cheaper than DC, Chitown, NYC etc.

[Sackboy]

The weirdest parts of the quality of life stuff to me is when people say things like, "If you live in houston, you will have to have a car!!!" as though having a car is some awful thing. Having a car in houston is not like having a car in new york. parking is generally easy, and your house will have parking. Its 100x more enjoyable to get into a car, go to the supermarket, buy a bunch of stuff, load up the car, go home, park in your garage, and take the bags to your kitchen than it is to schlep to a bodega and overpay for everything and then lug a bunch of bags back in the subway. And if you think you miss some character of a bodega, there are tons of local supermarkets (like la michoacana) that sell all kinds of interesting stuff, and even the big chains (Fiesta Mart, H-Mart, even HEB) have exotic stuff. So yes, you will probably need a car in Houston, but its actually enjoyable to have a car (provided you dont chose to live an hour away from where you work).

As someone who has lived in very VERY small American "cities," Chicago, and New York, this. I can't speak to Texas, but having a car, as a general rule, is 1000x better than relying on the El, the MTA, or even Uber. I feel like a lot of NYC folks must have never been inside a real grocery store. Bodega's are convenient, everywhere, and have some great qualities, but nothing beats rolling up to a grocery store the size of a warehouse, grabbing a cart, and having seemingly unlimited selection. With a car, you can also just go wherever you want whenever you want. Want to go to Philadelphia or Milwaukee? You don't need to look up train schedules. You don't need to get to the train station. You don't need to worry about delays, mass transit shenanigans, or anything. You just walk to your garage or parking space, hop in your car, and get going. You can bump your own music, take your own calls, make detours, etc.

[lawlo]

The weirdest parts of the quality of life stuff to me is when people say things like, "If you live in houston, you will have to have a car!!!" as though having a car is some awful thing. Having a car in houston is not like having a car in new york. parking is generally easy, and your house will have parking. Its 100x more enjoyable to get into a car, go to the supermarket, buy a bunch of stuff, load up the car, go home, park in your garage, and take the bags to your kitchen than it is to schlep to a bodega and overpay for everything and then lug a bunch of bags back in the subway. And if you think you miss some character of a bodega, there are tons of local supermarkets (like la michoacana) that sell all kinds of interesting stuff, and even the big chains (Fiesta Mart, H-Mart, even HEB) have exotic stuff. So yes, you will probably need a car in Houston, but its actually enjoyable to have a car (provided you dont chose to live an hour away from where you work).

As someone who has lived in very VERY small American "cities," Chicago, and New York, this. I can't speak to Texas, but having a car, as a general rule, is 1000x better than relying on the El, the MTA, or even Uber. I feel like a lot of NYC folks must have never been inside a real grocery store. Bodega's are convenient, everywhere, and have some great qualities, but nothing beats rolling up to a grocery store the size of a warehouse, grabbing a cart, and having seemingly unlimited selection. With a car, you can also just go wherever you want whenever you want. Want to go to Philadelphia or Milwaukee? You don't need to look up train schedules. You don't need to get to the train station. You don't need to worry about delays, mass transit shenanigans, or anything. You just walk to your garage or parking space, hop in your car, and get going. You can bump your own music, take your own calls, make detours, etc.

It's really insane that this has to be explained.

[nixy]

I mean, some people just don't like to drive, and/or love the NYC culture of walking, buying from bodegas or the like, and eating out/getting takeout instead of stocking up at Costco. Other people believe strongly in the value of public transport for environmental reasons. And so on. You don't have to agree with someone who feels that way (personally I like my car), but it doesn't make them an idiot.

[Lacepiece23]

The weirdest parts of the quality of life stuff to me is when people say things like, "If you live in houston, you will have to have a car!!!" as though having a car is some awful thing. Having a car in houston is not like having a car in new york. parking is generally easy, and your house will have parking. Its 100x more enjoyable to get into a car, go to the supermarket, buy a bunch of stuff, load up the car, go home, park in your garage, and take the bags to your kitchen than it is to schlep to a bodega and overpay for everything and then lug a bunch of bags back in the subway. And if you think you miss some character of a bodega, there are tons of local supermarkets (like la michoacana) that sell all kinds of interesting stuff, and even the big chains (Fiesta Mart, H-Mart, even HEB) have exotic stuff. So yes, you will probably need a car in Houston, but its actually enjoyable to have a car (provided you dont chose to live an hour away from where you work).

As someone who has lived in very VERY small American "cities," Chicago, and New York, this. I can't speak to Texas, but having a car, as a general rule, is 1000x better than relying on the El, the MTA, or even Uber. I feel like a lot of NYC folks must have never been inside a real grocery store. Bodega's are convenient, everywhere, and have some great qualities, but nothing beats rolling up to a grocery store the size of a warehouse, grabbing a cart, and having seemingly unlimited selection. With a car, you can also just go wherever you want whenever you want. Want to go to Philadelphia or Milwaukee? You don't need to look up train schedules. You don't need to get to the train station. You don't need to worry about delays, mass transit shenanigans, or anything. You just walk to your garage or parking space, hop in your car, and get going. You can bump your own music, take your own calls, make detours, etc.

It's really insane that this has to be explained.

I live in Philly. It's really he best of both worlds. I have a car. I shop at whole foods. I can actually walk or drive, but I prefer to drive. I'm a hour and a half train ride to NYC and DC. But, honestly, I rarely drive my car because I prefer walking. I drive it a mile to the grocery store, if that, and drive back. Sometimes I'll drive to South Philly or NE Philly if I'm not drinking at dinner. That hasn't really been a problem lately. I also have a three story row home with a rooftop deck. I pay like $1500 in mortgage right now.

Downside is that I don't make Cravath scale money. I could work at one of the two Biglaw firms that pay market. I choose not to for lifestyle reasons. But I'd much rather live here than Texas or any other LCOL city.

[Blessedassurance]

I mean, some people just don't like to drive, and/or love the NYC culture of walking, buying from bodegas or the like, and eating out/getting takeout instead of stocking up at Costco. Other people believe strongly in the value of public transport for environmental reasons. And so on. You don't have to agree with someone who feels that way (personally I like my car), but it doesn't make them an idiot.

True. But most remarks putting down other cities usually comes from the "NY culture crowd," who seem flabbergasted at the idea that different people could possibly like different things.

[lawlo]

I mean, some people just don't like to drive, and/or love the NYC culture of walking, buying from bodegas or the like, and eating out/getting takeout instead of stocking up at Costco. Other people believe strongly in the value of public transport for environmental reasons. And so on. You don't have to agree with someone who feels that way (personally I like my car), but it doesn't make them an idiot.

True. But most remarks putting down other cities usually comes from the "NY culture crowd," who seem flabbergasted at the idea that different people could possibly like different things.

Definitely don't think anyone is an idiot for liking the NYC lifestyle. But I do find it laughably ignorant when people have so much disdain for the way 95 percent of the country lives. Even funnier how they idolize dirty public transport and lame little convenience stores (bodegas). The truth is, many people just want to say they live in NYC or SF. It's a status symbol for status obsessed people. And they'll tell themselves anything to convince themselves it's the best place even if a homeless man is defecating in front of their $4k a month closet they share with 2 other geniuses.

[nixy]

I mean, some people just don't like to drive, and/or love the NYC culture of walking, buying from bodegas or the like, and eating out/getting takeout instead of stocking up at Costco. Other people believe strongly in the value of public transport for environmental reasons. And so on. You don't have to agree with someone who feels that way (personally I like my car), but it doesn't make them an idiot.

True. But most remarks putting down other cities usually comes from the "NY culture crowd," who seem flabbergasted at the idea that different people could possibly like different things.

Definitely don't think anyone is an idiot for liking the NYC lifestyle. But I do find it laughably ignorant when people have so much disdain for the way 95 percent of the country lives. Even funnier how they idolize dirty public transport and lame little convenience stores (bodegas). The truth is, many people just want to say they live in NYC or SF. It's a status symbol for status obsessed people. And they'll tell themselves anything to convince themselves it's the best place even if a homeless man is defecating in front of their $4k a month closet they share with 2 other geniuses.

What a helpful comment!!

[cisscum]

I live in new york but I don't understand the appeal of bodegas. They are overpriced and usually don't have what you need.

[Anonymous User]

Just throwing in a point for Wilmington. Friend just got an offer from a firm there- 180k; they plan on living elsewhere though and commuting in. Not sure what prices are like there but assuming cheaper than DC, Chitown, NYC etc.

As someone who lived in one of the listed places and then worked at a Wilmington firm paying 190k + market bonuses, can confirm that commuting in is very common, and incredibly worth the savings. And I definitely felt like I had plenty of training and was perfectly qualified to jump to another job that would generally require "national biglaw" experience.

Also, to the point below about starting at 160k and having "pathetic" bonuses, that is simply wrong. The Big 4 in Wilmington start at 175k, and admittedly don't have the most incredible bonus structure. But there are many shops in town, both local and national outposts, that start at 175-190k, and have market bonuses if not higher. As an aside, for the more local firms, partnership prospects are pretty high, and it's easy to rake in 700-800k as a local partner after 7-8 years of experience.

[Anonymous User]

A number of Wilmington, Delaware firms pay market scale with no compression, including some of the litigation boutiques. One shop, Abrams & Bayliss, pays at or above above market salary and bonus compensation at all levels.

TBF, you also work above market hours at A&B and there is incredibly small prospect of advancement.

Agree with the first half of your comment. I find it hard to believe that "market" hours at, say, Skadden--which pays less--would result in either fewer hours billed, greater advancement opportunities, more sophisticated matters or higher level of responsibility as an associate.

[Anonymous User]

A number of Wilmington, Delaware firms pay market scale with no compression, including some of the litigation boutiques. One shop, Abrams & Bayliss, pays at or above above market salary and bonus compensation at all levels.

TBF, you also work above market hours at A&B and there is incredibly small prospect of advancement.

Agree with the first half of your comment. I find it hard to believe that "market" hours at, say, Skadden--which pays less--would result in either fewer hours billed, greater advancement opportunities, more sophisticated matters or higher level of responsibility as an associate.

You are partially correct. Skadden associates in DE bill materially fewer hours than A&B associates, and have somewhat of a greater advancement opportunity based on the past five years (before the past five years I would agree that that there was no difference). Sophistication level is essentially equal. A&B you actually generally would get more responsibility sooner as an associate, due mostly to size.

[Anonymous User]

Just throwing in a point for Wilmington. Friend just got an offer from a firm there- 180k; they plan on living elsewhere though and commuting in. Not sure what prices are like there but assuming cheaper than DC, Chitown, NYC etc.

For me it would depend on how far of a commute. I worked a few shorter term gigs where I knew that it wasn't worth relocating over the years, and I can tell you from first hand experience that it's not the distance but the time in traffic that gets old. If working 100 hour weeks, then even a single hour in traffic can be hell. Just my two cents. Sometimes it isn't a real choice though, so it is what it is.