[Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline Forum

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inter-associate

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Re: BigLaw firms that are progressive about working remote

Post by inter-associate » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:32 pm

Your en
totesTheGoat wrote:Care to explain what issues and risks Word's track changes functionality brings? "The juniors are lazy and make mistakes" isn't a responsive answer, "it takes longer" isn't really true, and "the juniors won't learn from it" is laughable for a number of reasons.
Your posts so far show that you don't have any experience working with legal documents, especially the process of producing them. I don't work in a corporate setting, but my experience in working with corporate folks is that that their idea of a perfect document is a much lower standard than mine given the legal ramifications of our documents. We have defined terms and internal and external cross references as well as complex mathematical functions reduced to words, any of which if even a little off can have a dramatic impact on legal outcomes. There are many moving pieces in complex corporate transactions and quality control at every step of the drafting process is essential. Even with three or four layers of internal review, client feedback and other law firms also doing three or four layers of internal review, docs get screwed up all the time. The consequences can range from mild embarrassment to major institutional client deciding to move work elsewhere.

To reduce this risk, while allowing partners to work on multiple projects at a time, the drafting process involves documents going up and down the line internally. Partners give general comments, senior associate give more specific comments, and junior folks run the changes while constantly scrubbing the doc for internal consistency and mistakes. If partners and senior folks were tasked with making changes themselves they would have no time to do anything else. So they make general comments as efficiently as possible and go back and forth with more junior lawyers to make sure they get implemented. There is no way it is more efficient for a partner to implement comments globally at their billing rates than it is to have the juniors do so.

So, the discussion in this thread is not on whether the senior folks should be inputting changes directly - I don't think anyone would argue that is how the system is supposed to work. It is about whether the senior folks make their comments electronically using Word review functions or just print out the doc and mark the changes directly on a hard copy. For me it is more efficient to hit print, mark my changes on the doc and then hand them over to a junior to incorporate. For example, if my only comment is to change "IPO" to "Qualified IPO" throughout the document, it is much faster for me to print the relevant page, write "Qualified" in front of IPO once and then add "global change" after it than it is for me to do the same in Word, save the doc to my desktop and then attach it to an email to the guy in the office next door. It is also much more efficient for me to print a document out and mark it while reviewing physically than it is to either review on a computer or have to keep looking up to make comments on the screen. But I know that folks who prefer to work in tracked changes feel the opposite is true, and I can't say that they are wrong. People are just wired differently.

From the junior's perspective, they should never just be accepting changes. I used to print out tracked changes markups and implement all changes manually just to make sure there were no typos or other snafus (spoiler alert - seniors have them all the time). So ultimately tracked changes put me in the same place as if I had just received hand markups, which I think is also true for quality junior associates generally. The time saved transcribing is just replaced with another process to make sure the document is perfect.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by spyke123 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:10 pm

it just boggles my mind that anyone who isnt old thinks in this age and day that marking up a doc by hand (especially docs that are 100 pg +) is the way to go. why dont we just go back to using typewriters and running redlines by hand? those were the best times right? there are so many inefficiencies in biglaw and hand markups is one of them (the other major one being sig pages). it takes hours and hours to transcribe hand markups into ms word (probably 20%-30% of that time spent trying to figure out wtf each comment is supposed to go because there are just way too many damn lines and another 30% spent going through the markup again to make sure nothing was missed) and with seniors who have to review/sign off on everything, that process will probably have to repeat three more times before the doc is out the door. and yes, I am in biglaw and I am not a junior.

What shocks me even more is that I've seen my classmates suddenly go from hating hand markups as juniors to thinking hard markups are the best things ever as they become more senior. I really think part of the reason is arrogance and "hierarchy of work" thats deeply rooted in biglaw. There is just something about hand marking up a doc and handing it over to a junior and telling them to "run these changes for my review" - sending the same markup in track changes to a junior does not feel the same. The senior/mid/partner who made their comments in track changes probably feel like they did all the work only to have junior perfect the doc with one click. They try to justify hand markups by saying "juniors learn the best this way" (this is the biggest bs I've heard in biglaw - if anything, with so many hand markups to process with no room for error, there is no time to really think thru the comments and learn from them). Of course with the biglaw model dependent on hours billed, incentives are not there to change this practice anytime soon.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by dabigchina » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:22 pm

What shocks me even more is that I've seen my classmates suddenly go from hating hand markups as juniors to thinking hard markups are the best things ever as they become more senior. I really think part of the reason is arrogance and "hierarchy of work" thats deeply rooted in biglaw. There is just something about hand marking up a doc and handing it over to a junior and telling them to "run these changes for my review" - sending the same markup in track changes to a junior does not feel the same.
I'm just a junior, but part of this might just be survivorship bias. The only way someone can become senior and stay (relatively) sane is by internalizing all the BS that is market practice at law firms, but are insane by regular person standards. The people who fail to do so are weeded out, either by by self selection or otherwise.
Last edited by dabigchina on Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by inter-associate » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:28 pm

spyke123 wrote:it just boggles my mind that anyone who isnt old thinks in this age and day that marking up a doc by hand (especially docs that are 100 pg +) is the way to go. why dont we just go back to using typewriters and running redlines by hand? those were the best times right? there are so many inefficiencies in biglaw and hand markups is one of them (the other major one being sig pages). it takes hours and hours to transcribe hand markups into ms word (probably 20%-30% of that time spent trying to figure out wtf each comment is supposed to go because there are just way too many damn lines and another 30% spent going through the markup again to make sure nothing was missed) and with seniors who have to review/sign off on everything, that process will probably have to repeat three more times before the doc is out the door. and yes, I am in biglaw and I am not a junior.

What shocks me even more is that I've seen my classmates suddenly go from hating hand markups as juniors to thinking hard markups are the best things ever as they become more senior. I really think part of the reason is arrogance and "hierarchy of work" thats deeply rooted in biglaw. There is just something about hand marking up a doc and handing it over to a junior and telling them to "run these changes for my review" - sending the same markup in track changes to a junior does not feel the same. The senior/mid/partner who made their comments in track changes probably feel like they did all the work only to have junior perfect the doc with one click. They try to justify hand markups by saying "juniors learn the best this way" (this is the biggest bs I've heard in biglaw - if anything, with so many hand markups to process with no room for error, there is no time to really think thru the comments and learn from them). Of course with the biglaw model dependent on hours billed, incentives are not there to change this practice anytime soon.
Did you ever consider that once your classmates got more senior they realized it actually is more efficient for them to do hand markups? The camps will argue to the end of the earth, but there is no way you are going to convince me that doing tracked changes is faster than just marking on the documents for me. It is not about intentional inefficiency, it is about getting well marked docs into someone else's hands as quickly as possible so I can deal with everything else I have going on. I don't care about junior time, I care about mine.

Question for you - is the process really that different when you receive comments in tracked changes? Is it really faster to receive comments in tracked changes and then double check that everything got in perfectly and the document was fully conformed? That was not the case when I was junior, because I was even more worried that stuff got missed, but I guess YMMV.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by LaLiLuLeLo » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:36 pm

inter-associate wrote:
spyke123 wrote:it just boggles my mind that anyone who isnt old thinks in this age and day that marking up a doc by hand (especially docs that are 100 pg +) is the way to go. why dont we just go back to using typewriters and running redlines by hand? those were the best times right? there are so many inefficiencies in biglaw and hand markups is one of them (the other major one being sig pages). it takes hours and hours to transcribe hand markups into ms word (probably 20%-30% of that time spent trying to figure out wtf each comment is supposed to go because there are just way too many damn lines and another 30% spent going through the markup again to make sure nothing was missed) and with seniors who have to review/sign off on everything, that process will probably have to repeat three more times before the doc is out the door. and yes, I am in biglaw and I am not a junior.

What shocks me even more is that I've seen my classmates suddenly go from hating hand markups as juniors to thinking hard markups are the best things ever as they become more senior. I really think part of the reason is arrogance and "hierarchy of work" thats deeply rooted in biglaw. There is just something about hand marking up a doc and handing it over to a junior and telling them to "run these changes for my review" - sending the same markup in track changes to a junior does not feel the same. The senior/mid/partner who made their comments in track changes probably feel like they did all the work only to have junior perfect the doc with one click. They try to justify hand markups by saying "juniors learn the best this way" (this is the biggest bs I've heard in biglaw - if anything, with so many hand markups to process with no room for error, there is no time to really think thru the comments and learn from them). Of course with the biglaw model dependent on hours billed, incentives are not there to change this practice anytime soon.
I don't care about junior time, I care about mine.
Woomp there it is.

I guess there’s no nice way to say this - that’s just the attitude of a prick. I actively try to avoid giving juniors extra work, late work, weekend work, bullshit work, etc. I even apologize when it can’t be avoided. I don’t even think I’m a good person - just someone who didn’t accept some of the bullshit I went through as a junior.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by inter-associate » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:13 pm

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:I guess there’s no nice way to say this - that’s just the attitude of a prick. I actively try to avoid giving juniors extra work, late work, weekend work, bullshit work, etc. I even apologize when it can’t be avoided. I don’t even think I’m a good person - just someone who didn’t accept some of the bullshit I went through as a junior.
That's a pretty strong comment based on the context of this thread. I have worked over 200 hours per month for as long as I can remember and often go over 300. My sole focus is on getting stuff into the right person's hand in the right form as efficiently as possible so I can get everything else done. I do all of things you mentioned above when communicating with juniors and get along well with those who work for me. But I am not willing to spend an extra 15 minutes to save a junior 30 minutes, because I don't have that 15 minutes (today being a rare exception given my number of posts).

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by GeneralFile(s) » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:15 pm

Is it really faster to receive comments in tracked changes and then double check that everything got in perfectly and the document was fully conformed? That was not the case when I was junior, because I was even more worried that stuff got missed, but I guess YMMV.
I am a second year that has input comments from physical hand mark-ups, scanned hand mark-ups and tracked changes many times. There is nothing worse from my perspective than receiving both scanned and physical hand mark-ups. I would estimate they take 3-4x on average as long for me to make the same comments. Sometimes it may take 5-10 minutes to interpret a single word. The senior associate/partner never knows this because I don't go asking for them to re-write the comments or call them if they are remote to explain which ones I can't read. It may take them hours to respond if they are out of office or on a call, etc., so I just arduously figure it out myself. I have even used online scrabble solver websites to try and figure out what words may be. Sometimes other associates come to my office and we will try and read handwritten comments together. There are often jumbles of lines and cross-outs that take 15-20 minutes to decode per page.

I understand that some partners are older and have been doing hand mark-ups for decades and don't expect them to change and I just deal with it. I also understand that sometimes in "crunch time" scenarios there will simply not be enough time but anything except a hand mark-up and that is fine. But I think that younger attorneys doing hand mark-ups as regular practice should realize that it may take up to 3 hours to do comments on a mark-up that would have taken 20 minutes in tracked changes. It's demoralizing for juniors to receive hand-mark ups as well compared to track changed documents. I also consider myself a good junior and would never click "accept all" on a tracked changes mark-up and any good junior will look at each comment individually and consider it.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:17 pm

inter-associate wrote:I don't care about junior time, I care about mine.
Hey, can you seniors tell me what other pointless make-work you cram down juniors' throats because you're "old-fashioned" and you don't give a fuck about anyone besides yourselves? I'm looking to get a little more detailed in my suicide note.

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Re: BigLaw firms that are progressive about working remote

Post by gregfootball2001 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:36 pm

inter-associate wrote:For me it is more efficient to hit print, mark my changes on the doc and then hand them over to a junior to incorporate. For example, if my only comment is to change "IPO" to "Qualified IPO" throughout the document, it is much faster for me to print the relevant page, write "Qualified" in front of IPO once and then add "global change" after it than it is for me to do the same in Word, save the doc to my desktop and then attach it to an email to the guy in the office next door.
Two things. First, I don't actually believe that it's faster to print an entire document, make a change, and physically walk over to another office (or call someone and have them come to you) than it is to make the change in Word and email the document.

Second, even if your current electronic transmission speed is somehow slower, you can be more efficient by not saving the document to your desktop. If you don't want your changes saved as a new version (not sure why you wouldn't save them on the system as a new version so that you can know where changes came from down the line, but whatever) you can hit the "File" tab at the top of the Word document, then "Share" on the left column, and finally the "Send as Attachment" button. This will attach the file to an email that you can easily send. The document will stay in your sent box (or your inbox if you want to cc yourself) for future reference. If efficiency of transmission is truly the point, this should be much faster.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by yost » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:50 pm

You all are talking past each other. Senior Associate is saying it is more efficient for him to do hand markups. This is plausible. Everyone else is saying hand markups are way less efficient for downstream juniors. This is certaintly true. Senior Associate just doesn't care.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by yost » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:53 pm

You all are talking past each other. Senior Associate is saying it is more efficient for him to do hand markups. This is plausible. Everyone else is saying hand markups are way less efficient for downstream juniors. This is certaintly true. Senior Associate just doesn't care.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by GeneralFile(s) » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:07 pm

yost wrote:You all are talking past each other. Senior Associate is saying it is more efficient for him to do hand markups. This is plausible. Everyone else is saying hand markups are way less efficient for downstream juniors. This is certaintly true. Senior Associate just doesn't care.
I think (or rather hope) that senior associate does not realize just how less efficient it is, both in terms of processing the comments and maintaining morale for juniors that work for him.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by inter-associate » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:15 pm

GeneralFile(s) wrote:
yost wrote:You all are talking past each other. Senior Associate is saying it is more efficient for him to do hand markups. This is plausible. Everyone else is saying hand markups are way less efficient for downstream juniors. This is certaintly true. Senior Associate just doesn't care.
I think (or rather hope) that senior associate does not realize just how less efficient it is, both in terms of processing the comments and maintaining morale for juniors that work for him.
Believe it or not I was a junior not too long ago and am still alive to talk about it. I remember how frustrating it was to get illegible comments - including one time I spent thirty minutes trying to figure one out before asking the partner. He said it was just a scribble mark. My "improvement'' to the system has been to never never never give illegible comments.

I do realize it would be faster for my juniors if I gave them completed documents with comments in tracked changes. The problem is it would take me significantly longer to get comments out, and then the juniors would complain about getting hit with work at inconvenient times.

There are so many parts of this job that suck, and it doesn't really get better as you get more senior. I wish all work came in an orderly manner and at convenient times. I would love it if clients gave instant feedback so I can do the same for juniors. And I certainly wish I wouldn't get hit with random fire drills daily that made my previous deadlines for projects look manufactured. Juniors bear the brunt of all of this without any vision into why it happens. I understand the complaints, and I feel for them. I hate making people screw up their personal lives the way mine has been screwed up. But this really is how the industry works and it isn't getting any better given firms compete on presentation and speed, not on ability.

Some final food for thought. If this profession became more efficient, you would just be expected to use the extra time for more work. That may sound ridiculous, but the advent of technology has not done anything to reduce our workload. It has just increased unreasonable expectations to new heights, and made it possible for firms to take on more work than they otherwise would have. Not saying we shouldn't be more efficient, but if you think that is going to make quality of life better you are delusional.

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Re: BigLaw firms that are progressive about working remote

Post by totesTheGoat » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:21 pm

Your posts so far show that you don't have any experience working with legal documents, especially the process of producing them.
I draft and review documents on a daily basis.
I don't work in a corporate setting, but my experience in working with corporate folks is that that their idea of a perfect document is a much lower standard than mine given the legal ramifications of our documents.
That's probably true for me. A small mistake here or there isn't the end of the world for me. It's embarrassing and it's something that often has negative ramifications if it happens in the wrong place, so I target my review on the places where it counts. I don't have time to babysit my OC to make sure that every single word in the document is proofread.
We have defined terms and internal and external cross references as well as complex mathematical functions reduced to words, any of which if even a little off can have a dramatic impact on legal outcomes. There are many moving pieces in complex corporate transactions and quality control at every step of the drafting process is essential. Even with three or four layers of internal review, client feedback and other law firms also doing three or four layers of internal review, docs get screwed up all the time. The consequences can range from mild embarrassment to major institutional client deciding to move work elsewhere.
You're describing things that are done exceedingly well by computers and not very well by people. At the very least, the manual review can be augmented by using computers for what they're good at: not skimming.
For me it is more efficient to hit print, mark my changes on the doc and then hand them over to a junior to incorporate. For example, if my only comment is to change "IPO" to "Qualified IPO" throughout the document, it is much faster for me to print the relevant page, write "Qualified" in front of IPO once and then add "global change" after it than it is for me to do the same in Word, save the doc to my desktop and then attach it to an email to the guy in the office next door.
CTRL+h, type "IPO", TAB, type "Qualified IPO", click "Replace All"
Done. It took me 11 seconds when I tried it just now. Let's say you're amazingly fast at writing, and you can write your comment in 8 seconds. You just traded 3 seconds of your life for the peace of mind that this issue is resolved without requiring further action from another attorney.

I'm not gonna bother addressing the rest point by point, but I'll say that proper understanding of the role of track changes v. commenting can create a relatively efficient review workflow. Learn a couple shortcut key commands, and you don't even have to metaphorically reach for the pen. I'll finish by saying that I'm not trying to be some sort of Word evangelist. It's no skin off my back if you use track changes or a red pen or some AI software or a chisel. It just so completely contrary to my experience to see manual redlining as anything but a highly inefficient relic of the past. It's lumped together with reel lawn mowers and washboards in my mind. Heck, Word track changes isn't the cutting edge for us. It's the inefficient baseline. We're currently building automated checks into the workflow to catch some of the mistakes and typos before a reviewer has even picked it up.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by icansortofmath » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:29 pm

CTRL+h, type "IPO", TAB, type "Qualified IPO", click "Replace All"

I. ASSUMPTIONS OF Qualified IPO"

That somehow gets through. It's extremely annoying. IPO is a bad one but imagine a word like

Liposuction

Now it's LQualified IPOsuction.

I am sure I am not the only person to have seen that and stuff like that is extremely brutal to fix.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by inter-associate » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:41 pm

icansortofmath wrote:CTRL+h, type "IPO", TAB, type "Qualified IPO", click "Replace All"

I. ASSUMPTIONS OF Qualified IPO"

That somehow gets through. It's extremely annoying. IPO is a bad one but imagine a word like

Liposuction

Now it's LQualified IPOsuction.

I am sure I am not the only person to have seen that and stuff like that is extremely brutal to fix.
Or the number of times I've seen something like "Qualified Qualified IPO"

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by Excellent117 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:43 pm

If only there were options in find and replace like "match case" and "find whole words only"...

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by yost » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:44 pm

icansortofmath wrote:CTRL+h, type "IPO", TAB, type "Qualified IPO", click "Replace All"

I. ASSUMPTIONS OF Qualified IPO"

That somehow gets through. It's extremely annoying. IPO is a bad one but imagine a word like

Liposuction

Now it's LQualified IPOsuction.

I am sure I am not the only person to have seen that and stuff like that is extremely brutal to fix.
There is literally a "Find whole words only" option in the Find and Replace tool.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by UnfrozenCaveman » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:52 pm

Never do replace all.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by inter-associate » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:56 pm

yost wrote:CTRL+h, type "IPO", TAB, type "Qualified IPO", click "Replace All"
Done. It took me 11 seconds when I tried it just now. Let's say you're amazingly fast at writing, and you can write your comment in 8 seconds. You just traded 3 seconds of your life for the peace of mind that this issue is resolved without requiring further action from another attorney.
And if that was the only change in the document I would be in heaven. My comments are most often a combination of things like "global change," "insert rider [x]," "move [bracketed language] to where indicated on page [x]," and "stet [circled language in a PDF redline]". The longer the doc and more the variety and the more a hand markup makes perfect sense. When it is a bunch of short docs there are less changes but more saving and attaching (or complaining by juniors that I send everything one-off), so still easier to just have secretary print them off for me to mark by hand.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by icansortofmath » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:35 pm

Excellent117 wrote:If only there were options in find and replace like "match case" and "find whole words only"...
You still get "Qualified Qualified IPO"

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by oblig.lawl.ref » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:50 pm

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:
inter-associate wrote:
spyke123 wrote:it just boggles my mind that anyone who isnt old thinks in this age and day that marking up a doc by hand (especially docs that are 100 pg +) is the way to go. why dont we just go back to using typewriters and running redlines by hand? those were the best times right? there are so many inefficiencies in biglaw and hand markups is one of them (the other major one being sig pages). it takes hours and hours to transcribe hand markups into ms word (probably 20%-30% of that time spent trying to figure out wtf each comment is supposed to go because there are just way too many damn lines and another 30% spent going through the markup again to make sure nothing was missed) and with seniors who have to review/sign off on everything, that process will probably have to repeat three more times before the doc is out the door. and yes, I am in biglaw and I am not a junior.

What shocks me even more is that I've seen my classmates suddenly go from hating hand markups as juniors to thinking hard markups are the best things ever as they become more senior. I really think part of the reason is arrogance and "hierarchy of work" thats deeply rooted in biglaw. There is just something about hand marking up a doc and handing it over to a junior and telling them to "run these changes for my review" - sending the same markup in track changes to a junior does not feel the same. The senior/mid/partner who made their comments in track changes probably feel like they did all the work only to have junior perfect the doc with one click. They try to justify hand markups by saying "juniors learn the best this way" (this is the biggest bs I've heard in biglaw - if anything, with so many hand markups to process with no room for error, there is no time to really think thru the comments and learn from them). Of course with the biglaw model dependent on hours billed, incentives are not there to change this practice anytime soon.
I don't care about junior time, I care about mine.
Woomp there it is.

I guess there’s no nice way to say this - that’s just the attitude of a prick. I actively try to avoid giving juniors extra work, late work, weekend work, bullshit work, etc. I even apologize when it can’t be avoided. I don’t even think I’m a good person - just someone who didn’t accept some of the bullshit I went through as a junior.
This is, of course, where this whole debate was going all along. This is why I left big law. IMO about 85% of people in BL past year 6 are low-grade sociopaths or just assholes. It's so weird being in house where people generally do not treat colleagues like this.

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by kaiser » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:51 pm

oblig.lawl.ref wrote:
LaLiLuLeLo wrote:
inter-associate wrote:
spyke123 wrote:it just boggles my mind that anyone who isnt old thinks in this age and day that marking up a doc by hand (especially docs that are 100 pg +) is the way to go. why dont we just go back to using typewriters and running redlines by hand? those were the best times right? there are so many inefficiencies in biglaw and hand markups is one of them (the other major one being sig pages). it takes hours and hours to transcribe hand markups into ms word (probably 20%-30% of that time spent trying to figure out wtf each comment is supposed to go because there are just way too many damn lines and another 30% spent going through the markup again to make sure nothing was missed) and with seniors who have to review/sign off on everything, that process will probably have to repeat three more times before the doc is out the door. and yes, I am in biglaw and I am not a junior.

What shocks me even more is that I've seen my classmates suddenly go from hating hand markups as juniors to thinking hard markups are the best things ever as they become more senior. I really think part of the reason is arrogance and "hierarchy of work" thats deeply rooted in biglaw. There is just something about hand marking up a doc and handing it over to a junior and telling them to "run these changes for my review" - sending the same markup in track changes to a junior does not feel the same. The senior/mid/partner who made their comments in track changes probably feel like they did all the work only to have junior perfect the doc with one click. They try to justify hand markups by saying "juniors learn the best this way" (this is the biggest bs I've heard in biglaw - if anything, with so many hand markups to process with no room for error, there is no time to really think thru the comments and learn from them). Of course with the biglaw model dependent on hours billed, incentives are not there to change this practice anytime soon.
I don't care about junior time, I care about mine.
Woomp there it is.

I guess there’s no nice way to say this - that’s just the attitude of a prick. I actively try to avoid giving juniors extra work, late work, weekend work, bullshit work, etc. I even apologize when it can’t be avoided. I don’t even think I’m a good person - just someone who didn’t accept some of the bullshit I went through as a junior.
This is, of course, where this whole debate was going all along. This is why I left big law. IMO about 85% of people in BL past year 6 are low-grade sociopaths or just assholes. It's so weird being in house where people generally do not treat colleagues like this.

bob311

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by bob311 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:10 pm

This thread clearly shows the cycle of hazing that is biglaw continues. It is the classic formulation of hazing: I got treated awful/I had do to it, so you now have to do it as the new person.

It was this exact bs why I left biglaw. Hazing is never acceptable.

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jkpolk

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Re: [Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline

Post by jkpolk » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:00 pm

1. Although I thought TC was the way to go when I started, over time I realized I'm personally more accurate/read more closely when I'm hand marking.
2. After I hand mark I'm not going to then run those comments electronically, I'm going to give them to my secretary, a paralegal or a junior because they have a lower billing rate.
3. I have no problem with my secretary scanning comments to people - I appreciate/appreciated having comments scanned to me.
4. More generally, there is no question that many biglaw business practices would be dumb and bad if biglaw were a meritocratic/market driven industry. Prime example getting raised here: the failure to adopt an employee-centric model (and instead cling to a partner/owner-centric model) in the day-to-day operation of the law firm is certainly penny-wise and pound-foolish and could certainly, in theory, be disrupted by a bottom-up happyland that attracts superstars. However, law is not a meritocracy, the market is driven by 30+ year partners and risk adverse GCs, and there aren't 25 year old legal superstars unless you're a Kennedy, etc. (read: you wont be a superstar who has the leverage to flip the script because of your big brain).

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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