Biglaw Associates - How do you keep doing this? Forum

[Anonymous User]

OP - I'm sorry you're having this experience. You would not be the first person I've seen to quit abruptly, but I'd urge you to see if you could stick it out at least until you find a new job. Is there a way you can reserve some vacation time now in the next month or two, even if you are just taking a few days and clear your head?

[Anonymous User]

If anyone in my group tried this strategy (Private Equity M&A) they’d probably get fired in two weeks. Our clients work until 2 am every night and expect the lawyers they pay to do the same.

As another Private Equity M&A associate...I think the answer to the question "How do you keep doing this" is "don't do anything related to Private Equity".

[Anonymous User]

If anyone in my group tried this strategy (Private Equity M&A) they’d probably get fired in two weeks. Our clients work until 2 am every night and expect the lawyers they pay to do the same.

As another Private Equity M&A associate...I think the answer to the question "How do you keep doing this" is "don't do anything related to Private Equity".

Seriously. I'm a 5th-year lit associate billing 2,400+ hours a year for several years now, and I am legitimately scared of the hours that private equity associates keep.

[Anonymous User]

I just finished my first year and have about 200k in retirement/savings with no debt. Wondering if I should keep chugging away here and for how long. Would take another non-biglaw job in a heart beat but no one wants to hire someone with my experience for a $150k+ paying job. I am thinking of leaving the law altogether and going back to my quant type pre-lawschool job but I have a 4+ year gap now in work experience in that field and would have to start at a low level that probably is at 100k or below. It's depressing to see that everyone I went to undergrad with is now a VP or in managerial level position. I did the math, and assuming very modest raises at my original job (less than 5% raises/year), I would need to stay in big law through 2019 to break even for the opportunity cost of lost income if I never went to law school at all. AND I WENT TO SCHOOL FOR FREE WITHOUT ANY TUITION, so I can't imagine the type of regret I'd feel if I took on 200k+ of debt to go too.

What i find the worst about big law is not just the unpredictability of my schedule and lack of ownership over my time, but the fact that it is coupled with excruciatingly boring work. Wondering if it''s worth the money to slosh through another year if I ultimately don't want to exit into a similar line of work. Problem is I just don't know what to do.

[Anonymous User]

If anyone in my group tried this strategy (Private Equity M&A) they’d probably get fired in two weeks. Our clients work until 2 am every night and expect the lawyers they pay to do the same.

As another Private Equity M&A associate...I think the answer to the question "How do you keep doing this" is "don't do anything related to Private Equity".

Seriously. I'm a 5th-year lit associate billing 2,400+ hours a year for several years now, and I am legitimately scared of the hours that private equity associates keep.

This. 1 billion percent. Why the hell am I in this practice when I could be making the same money and going home at 7 every night doing IP or some shit.

[Anonymous User]

I absolutely do some of the things that the guy above mentioned. I try to keep my pipeline full of upcoming projects for people who are good and easy to work with, and then use those plans to tell people I don't want to deal with that I'm not available. It works even though the potential projects may or may not come through, and could float around doing nothing for weeks or months. I manage "up" a lot. Take action on how and when to approach things that works best for my plans and schedule, and follow-up after the fact with a "let me know if you feel differently." Don't pick up the phone for people who are needy and spend their day bugging people about one-off, minor things while you're in the middle of something else -- wait and call them once when you're not preoccupied. Arranging for juniors to take over workstreams more directly, even if the partner came to me. I definitely still review and fix-up their work when it's my responsibility, but I have them look at the changes and then send it directly to the partner / client, so that the e-mail chains and follow-up phone calls are directed toward them, they know what's going on in case there are follow-up assignments, there is a good chance that the partner just hits reply and sends follow-up work right to them, etc. Finishing assignments but waiting to submit them a bit later so that comments won't come back the same night.

I do one thing opposite of the other guy. I stay active with multiple partners on a regular basis. They don't all keep track of what's going on with every partner and every assignment. You can get a lot of pressure relieved by saying "Sure, Bob, I'd be glad to help you with that. I'm also juggling something for Joe, so I may not be immediately available when stuff pops up." The partners don't want to disrespect or undermine each other, they give some deference to that.

I'm not coasting and enjoying life as much as the other guy. Certainly not dropping off of e-mails for hours at a time at 4:30PM, and not joining a call for one of my matters would definitely not fly at all, but I have learned to make my life 10% more livable by learning a few tricks. Once you have a few years of experience and become a go-to associate for certain partners or certain types of assignments, you are pretty valuable. Replacing you is expensive and time consuming, interrupts the partner's golf schedule if he has to start doing more work himself, and might not turn out well if the new associate isn't as good. You have some leverage after proving yourself to a few partners. My experience is that if you save a partner's weekend plans by jumping on a firedrill assignment every once in a while, you build up a whole lot of goodwill, even if your hours are a little low most months. I realize this stuff won't work in every group within every firm, but many of you can probably make some use of this method.

[Anonymous User]

I absolutely do some of the things that the guy above mentioned. I try to keep my pipeline full of upcoming projects for people who are good and easy to work with, and then use those plans to tell people I don't want to deal with that I'm not available. It works even though the potential projects may or may not come through, and could float around doing nothing for weeks or months. I manage "up" a lot. Take action on how and when to approach things that works best for my plans and schedule, and follow-up after the fact with a "let me know if you feel differently." Don't pick up the phone for people who are needy and spend their day bugging people about one-off, minor things while you're in the middle of something else -- wait and call them once when you're not preoccupied. Arranging for juniors to take over workstreams more directly, even if the partner came to me. I definitely still review and fix-up their work when it's my responsibility, but I have them look at the changes and then send it directly to the partner / client, so that the e-mail chains and follow-up phone calls are directed toward them, they know what's going on in case there are follow-up assignments, there is a good chance that the partner just hits reply and sends follow-up work right to them, etc. Finishing assignments but waiting to submit them a bit later so that comments won't come back the same night.

I do one thing opposite of the other guy. I stay active with multiple partners on a regular basis. They don't all keep track of what's going on with every partner and every assignment. You can get a lot of pressure relieved by saying "Sure, Bob, I'd be glad to help you with that. I'm also juggling something for Joe, so I may not be immediately available when stuff pops up." The partners don't want to disrespect or undermine each other, they give some deference to that.

I'm not coasting and enjoying life as much as the other guy. Certainly not dropping off of e-mails for hours at a time at 4:30PM, and not joining a call for one of my matters would definitely not fly at all, but I have learned to make my life 10% more livable by learning a few tricks. Once you have a few years of experience and become a go-to associate for certain partners or certain types of assignments, you are pretty valuable. Replacing you is expensive and time consuming, interrupts the partner's golf schedule if he has to start doing more work himself, and might not turn out well if the new associate isn't as good. You have some leverage after proving yourself to a few partners. My experience is that if you save a partner's weekend plans by jumping on a firedrill assignment every once in a while, you build up a whole lot of goodwill, even if your hours are a little low most months. I realize this stuff won't work in every group within every firm, but many of you can probably make some use of this method.

Good advice. Whats been your hours like?

[Anonymous User]

If anyone in my group tried this strategy (Private Equity M&A) they’d probably get fired in two weeks. Our clients work until 2 am every night and expect the lawyers they pay to do the same.

As another Private Equity M&A associate...I think the answer to the question "How do you keep doing this" is "don't do anything related to Private Equity".

Yeah, a big LOL at the 2Ls and 3Ls wanting to do private equity M&A.

[Anonymous User]

Good advice. Whats been your hours like?

Very grueling for long periods within previous years, which bought me a lot of respect / goodwill within my group. Not on-track for my requirement this year at all, but I'll be just fine. Conventional TLS wisdom is that firms don't care about your past contributions long-term, but I don't think that's true of all groups. Maybe in places where every class is like 100 new bodies they don't care about each individual person much, but that is not the case in my situation.

[Anonymous User]

Good advice. Whats been your hours like?

Very grueling for long periods within previous years, which bought me a lot of respect / goodwill within my group. Not on-track for my requirement this year at all, but I'll be just fine. Conventional TLS wisdom is that firms don't care about your past contributions long-term, but I don't think that's true of all groups. Maybe in places where every class is like 100 new bodies they don't care about each individual person much, but that is not the case in my situation.

I see. So you’ve been hitting hours in the past. I’m curious how long you can survive with low hours before you are shown the door. Guess conventional tls wisdom at least a year or so.

[Anonymous User]

Good advice. Whats been your hours like?

Very grueling for long periods within previous years, which bought me a lot of respect / goodwill within my group. Not on-track for my requirement this year at all, but I'll be just fine. Conventional TLS wisdom is that firms don't care about your past contributions long-term, but I don't think that's true of all groups. Maybe in places where every class is like 100 new bodies they don't care about each individual person much, but that is not the case in my situation.

I see. So you’ve been hitting hours in the past. I’m curious how long you can survive with low hours before you are shown the door. Guess conventional tls wisdom at least a year or so.

I'm not just sneaking by and trying to survive. I am still profitable and doing good work. I have just learned to tone it down a little bit, to a lifestyle that makes biglaw somewhat bearable for a while longer, so that I can stack cash and wait for the right exit opportunity. I don't want to get pushed out and forced to find a landing spot within 3 months, and when I go, I plan to have a good reputation and references.

[Anonymous User]

OP Here - Interesting bit of comments here. Definitely agree with many of the people saying to leave early and push work down. Unfortunately, my group is pretty small and I'm one of a handful of midlevels/seniors and you can't really ghost when work is just piled on you like it is for me right now. I actually don't think I've had a relaxing day off in about 1.5 months at this point.

I'm pretty close to just paying off the rest of my debt and quitting. Or just keeping my savings above $100K, refinancing my debt to pay less and just figuring it out from there. The ability to have time off to take care of things around my house, start cooking again, getting in better shape and getting sleep seems like its worth it. Wish I never went to law school, and especially wish I never took on the debt amount that I did but I was a desperate 21 year old trying to figure out how to navigate the crisis. I knew biglaw would be bad, but honestly, after a few years of this I feel like I've really neglected my mental and physical health, on top of the fact that I have let all my other skill sets fall away. I used to be super personable and confident, a good manager, had quantitative skills that were good enough to land a finance job. Now I just sort of feel like a shell of what I used to be. Like I am a more jaded, cynical person and I definitely have lost a ton of my confidence. I used to love playing sports and its been over a year since I've done anything remotely like that. I know I'll miss the money a lot, but the thought of doing this another year just makes me really sad.

I can see other people that seem to at least get some enjoyment out of the work but I've never had that experience, its been more or less me just trying to get by to the next paycheck for a few years now. I have about $75,000 in student loans and about $125,000 in savings (not including retirement) so just trying to figure out what the best move is at the moment.

A few months ago my loans and savings amount was about the same as yours (also a midlevel). I paid the loans off completely and felt a huge weight off my shoulders...I’ve been able to survive biglaw the past few months with the knowledge that I’m in some sense free...it’s almost the same financially but theres a surprising psychological benefit to it (or at least there was to me)