Munger vs Williams & Connolly for General Lit Forum

[rpupkin]

This thread has improved considerably. Which I attribute to rpupkin appearing. For the record, I stand by MTO being more laid back culturally than W&C, from the availability of working remotely if necessary to the fact that California shops are generally much more chill than DC shops.

While I won't dispute the overall point, you can work remotely at W&C. No one notices if you're out of the office, as long as you aren't missing meetings.

The bolded is way too general to be accurate. The notion that "no one notices if you're out of the office" is the kind of thing that junior associates think is true when even when it's really not. (Hint: just because no one says anything to you about your absence doesn't mean that no one notices that you're gone.) That's particularly true at lower-leverage shops like W&C and MTO.

[KBJ2011]

It's amazing to me that people might be smart enough to work at one of these firms but not competent enough to use the forum search button.

I did, actually. I didn't find a thread that compared these two -- care to provide a link to one that does? If not, please get lost.

I'm not your RA, you can't afford my billing rate, and I found the thread in less than 30 seconds. Get lost.

I'm trying to imagine what it must be like to be this much of a dick when you could just link the thread.

Smokey is definitely a dick, but that's not why he didn't post a link. He didn't post a link because there isn't one to post. Like someone else mentioned, no other thread addresses this directly. You'd think someone who whines about incompetency would check the forum search button himself before criticizing others for failing to do so.

Thanks again to everyone who constructively added to the convo. Much appreciated!

[Anonymous User]

This thread has improved considerably. Which I attribute to rpupkin appearing. For the record, I stand by MTO being more laid back culturally than W&C, from the availability of working remotely if necessary to the fact that California shops are generally much more chill than DC shops.

You "stand by" this on what basis?

[Anonymous User]

I just wanted to chime in on one point as a former W&C summer. People on this forum frequently write or observe that W&C likes military experience. It's usually not clear what people mean by this, but in any case, I'd venture to say that the frequency with which you see it repeated creates for some law students a misconception that W&C is like some offshoot of an army base. There are certainly a fair share of lawyers at W&C who have military experience, including some fairly senior people. I would also accept that military experience counts for more if you're interviewing at W&C than if you're interviewing at Munger or a big New York firm; I have no way to know if that is true, but based on my observations I would not be surprised. But W&C has pretty large summer classes these days, and in any given year, very few (if any) summers will have military backgrounds. And as far as recent hires go, their backgrounds are, for the most part, public on the website -- and again, very few have military backgrounds.

[Nebby]

It's amazing to me that people might be smart enough to work at one of these firms but not competent enough to use the forum search button.

Putting the cart way before the horse. OP has offers at neither

[Anonymous User]

It's amazing to me that people might be smart enough to work at one of these firms but not competent enough to use the forum search button.

I did, actually. I didn't find a thread that compared these two -- care to provide a link to one that does? If not, please get lost.

As a rising 2L, you should first try to receive an offer from both places. Once you have both offers in hand, you should ask to split. If you receive an offer at both places and for some reason cannot split the summer, tell both firms you're trying to do decide which one to go to. You'll likely be placed in contact with someone who has worked at both places (at least as a summer associate). At the very least, you'll receive more nuanced answers than you'll find from this board.

I think this is generally right. But a word of warning: I tried this when I was choosing between two comparable firms and found that both tended to undersell the other firm, one more-so than the other. These firms are trying to recruit you, after all, so they're not exactly impartial. If these are ultimately your options, you really can't go wrong with either, and I would trust your gut in the interactions you have and give the most weight to the differences in cities, which you're familiar with. Good luck

[wisdom]

I realize I am late to this conversation, but OCIs are still going on so wanted to chime in. One noticeable difference will be pay. Munger matched the Cravath scale. With the current bonuses factored in, that means their associates make significantly more than W&C associates starting as third-years. The difference is tens of thousands per year, so seems like a material consideration. I'm not sure if LA or DC cost of living is higher, which would either ameliorate or exacerbate that difference.

[Anonymous User]

I realize I am late to this conversation, but OCIs are still going on so wanted to chime in. One noticeable difference will be pay. Munger matched the Cravath scale. With the current bonuses factored in, that means their associates make significantly more than W&C associates starting as third-years. The difference is tens of thousands per year, so seems like a material consideration. I'm not sure if LA or DC cost of living is higher, which would either ameliorate or exacerbate that difference.

LA cost of living is lower. So this is a fair point. Munger also does a 401k match which makes its third and fourth year pay $5-6k above the NY market. Munger does have a variable bonus structure though, so while most associates are making about market bonus, a few are higher and a hanful are below. Regardless its more than W&C by a considerable amount for mid levels.

[KBJ2011]

I realize I am late to this conversation, but OCIs are still going on so wanted to chime in. One noticeable difference will be pay. Munger matched the Cravath scale. With the current bonuses factored in, that means their associates make significantly more than W&C associates starting as third-years. The difference is tens of thousands per year, so seems like a material consideration. I'm not sure if LA or DC cost of living is higher, which would either ameliorate or exacerbate that difference.

LA cost of living is lower. So this is a fair point. Munger also does a 401k match which makes its third and fourth year pay $5-6k above the NY market. Munger does have a variable bonus structure though, so while most associates are making about market bonus, a few are higher and a hanful are below. Regardless its more than W&C by a considerable amount for mid levels.

Appreciate both of these comments; this is the kind of insight I was hoping for.

[SmokeytheBear]

I realize I am late to this conversation, but OCIs are still going on so wanted to chime in. One noticeable difference will be pay. Munger matched the Cravath scale. With the current bonuses factored in, that means their associates make significantly more than W&C associates starting as third-years. The difference is tens of thousands per year, so seems like a material consideration. I'm not sure if LA or DC cost of living is higher, which would either ameliorate or exacerbate that difference.

LA cost of living is lower. So this is a fair point. Munger also does a 401k match which makes its third and fourth year pay $5-6k above the NY market. Munger does have a variable bonus structure though, so while most associates are making about market bonus, a few are higher and a hanful are below. Regardless its more than W&C by a considerable amount for mid levels.

Appreciate both of these comments; this is the kind of insight I was hoping for.

Just for the record, I don't think a blanket statement of "LA cost of living is lower" is wholly accurate. Sure, living in West Adams is cheaper than living in Georgetown. But most of the west side of LA and parts of Echo Park/Silver Lake/Los Feliz and now most of DTLA are going to be on par with DC. And, having spent a summer in DC recently, I can promise you that there are parts of DC that are far, far cheaper than most of LA.

[rpupkin]

I realize I am late to this conversation, but OCIs are still going on so wanted to chime in. One noticeable difference will be pay. Munger matched the Cravath scale.

Munger may have matched the Cravath bonus scale last year, but they usually don't. Munger has typically paid below market bonuses for midlevels and senior associates. (This isn't a knock on Munger. With the exception of the firms that do significant plaintiff-side work, all of the top litigation firms/boutiques have generally paid at least a bit below market.)

[gchatbrah]

Would consider adding Covington LA to the mix -- pretty aggressive lateral activity recently. Firm is definitely committed to growing that office.

[rpupkin]

Would consider adding Covington LA to the mix -- pretty aggressive lateral activity recently. Firm is definitely committed to growing that office.

What is the deal with this guy's schtick? Is there some "Covington LA" inside joke that I'm unaware of? It kinda reminds me of the playful Schulte trolling a couple years back.

[First Offense]

Would consider adding Covington LA to the mix -- pretty aggressive lateral activity recently. Firm is definitely committed to growing that office.

What is the deal with this guy's schtick? Is there some "Covington LA" inside joke that I'm unaware of? It kinda reminds me of the playful Schulte trolling a couple years back.

How big could that office possibly be? They're not in the Munger/W&C discussion at all.

[rpupkin]

Would consider adding Covington LA to the mix -- pretty aggressive lateral activity recently. Firm is definitely committed to growing that office.

What is the deal with this guy's schtick? Is there some "Covington LA" inside joke that I'm unaware of? It kinda reminds me of the playful Schulte trolling a couple years back.

How big could that office possibly be? They're not in the Munger/W&C discussion at all.

It's like someone started a thread about Harvard vs. Stanford and then someone chimes in about adding USC to the mix. That's why I was wondering about the origins of this Convington-LA schtick, which I've seen this poster adopt in other threads.

[A. Nony Mouse]

S/he's been trolling about this for a while, and has been warned, so they're getting a short break.

[wjs98]

S/he's been trolling about this for a while, and has been warned, so they're getting a short break.

This board supports clearly supports fake news.

[wjs98]

Would consider adding Covington LA to the mix -- pretty aggressive lateral activity recently. Firm is definitely committed to growing that office.

What is the deal with this guy's schtick? Is there some "Covington LA" inside joke that I'm unaware of? It kinda reminds me of the playful Schulte trolling a couple years back.

How big could that office possibly be? They're not in the Munger/W&C discussion at all.

Just pulled two associates from MTO, so they know who their peers are.

[A. Nony Mouse]

S/he's been trolling about this for a while, and has been warned, so they're getting a short break.

This board supports clearly supports fake news.

And this poster clearly supports alting! Goodbye.

[Julien_Benda]

Would consider adding Covington LA to the mix -- pretty aggressive lateral activity recently. Firm is definitely committed to growing that office.

LA-based SA here. Can confirm the market perception of Covington LA and, to a lesser extent, Akin CC as rising powers. Both firms have paid out above-market recruitment bonuses, and they are aggressively looking to grow.

[rpupkin]

This is hilarious. Hey everybody: the fact that a firm wants to grow doesn't mean that it's a desirable or prestigious place to work. And the fact that a couple of associates lateraled from one firm to another doesn't mean that those two firms are "peers." If anything, it suggests the opposite, as folks usually lateral down.

[Anonymous User]

Would consider adding Covington LA to the mix -- pretty aggressive lateral activity recently. Firm is definitely committed to growing that office.

LA-based SA here. Can confirm the market perception of Covington LA and, to a lesser extent, Akin CC as rising powers. Both firms have paid out above-market recruitment bonuses, and they are aggressively looking to grow.

I'm also LA-based and I can confirm that no one in this city considers either Covington or Akin to be nearly on par with Munger or W&C, especially for young associates. So I'm not sure why they're being brought up ITT.

[BurlingTON]

This is hilarious. Hey everybody: the fact that a firm wants to grow doesn't mean that it's a desirable or prestigious place to work. And the fact that a couple of associates lateraled from one firm to another doesn't mean that those two firms are "peers." If anything, it suggests the opposite, as folks usually lateral down.

Lateraling up for sure. Not to mention the lovely Century City views. Have heard great things from other users in this community.

[rpupkin]

This is hilarious. Hey everybody: the fact that a firm wants to grow doesn't mean that it's a desirable or prestigious place to work. And the fact that a couple of associates lateraled from one firm to another doesn't mean that those two firms are "peers." If anything, it suggests the opposite, as folks usually lateral down.

Lateraling up for sure. Not to mention the lovely Century City views. Have heard great things from other users in this community.

Well, I've got to give the Covington recruiters points for persistence.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Well, I've got to give the Covington recruiters points for persistence.

And not even trying to hide their alts!