What good are alumni networks if they're all too busy to respond? Forum

[Nah B]

This is great.

[lawlorbust]

Sorry, I must've forgotten my conference room/black tie manners at the door when I entered the hallowed halls of top-law-schools.com/forums/anon_posting.php

LOL, yeah, you're coming off totally nice and sincere now. If you just send your proposed email, the attorney will definitely be cool introducing you to the alums.

If you "dropped the matter after one reply," then your OP was seriously misleading.

Sorry, posted anon accidentally. JazzOne here.

Yes, because forgetting your manners at the door = coming off as totally nice and sincere. I was responding to the line of thought of "if you're this way with us, anon randos on TLS, then you must be way worse in person." As if there's no such thing as tailoring my demeanor to the setting, such that I behave exactly the same on this venerable forum that allows for anon_posting.php as I do at black-tie cotillons.

But let us continue with this enriching dialogue where you dissect how many times I said I replied.
You're making my day here. When the guy quoted below (who's actually helpful) tells me to take the commentary here at face value, I'm sure this is what he had in mind. So please proceed.

it involves a certain amount of social capital to say, "hey, will you have coffee with this guy," and I don't want them coming back to me saying, "why the hell did you think that person was worth our time?"

I can't say what happened here, OP. Maybe that guy was just a jerk. Maybe his thinking is different from what I've written. But as an experienced recruiter, I strongly urge you to calmly and rationally take the commentary in this thread at face value.

Thanks for this. I'm aware of the social capital required to go out on a limb and vouch for someone. That's why I've hesitated to ask my own peers/friends who are SAs/junior associates at firms, because I don't want to embarrass myself or them.

But I wasn't asking to be set up for a half-hour coffee date. In all likelihood, it'd be nothing more than a few email exchanges, maybe a quick phone call.

And maybe not even an email or a phone call. But is it too much to ask to ask an alum to forward my resume to their former colleagues, even if those colleagues are no longer with their original firms and have moved onto other legal employers?

Lol, depending on the actual ask it doesn't involve a lot of social capital at all. As a summer associate, I wouldn't ask a partner I worked with to spend some time talking about his job with my friend, but it costs me nothing to forward a viable resume to HR for an auto-callback. The fact that no one is stepping up for OP is, IMO, a pretty strong sign that 1) he wouldn't be qualified for the job no matter how many people he spoke to or 2) he's a walking personality disorder that the people he's talked to don't want to be associated with.

[loh]

ITT: Op might not know what he is doing or what people are saying because he is aspie. True story.

[Anonymous User]

Lol, depending on the actual ask it doesn't involve a lot of social capital at all. As a summer associate, I wouldn't ask a partner I worked with to spend some time talking about his job with my friend, but it costs me nothing to forward a viable resume to HR for an auto-callback. The fact that no one is stepping up for OP is, IMO, a pretty strong sign that 1) he wouldn't be qualified for the job no matter how many people he spoke to or 2) he's a walking personality disorder that the people he's talked to don't want to be associated with.

First, just so I don't get any "lol now you're being defensive about it too" wisecracks, let me start by expressing my agreement with everything you say, regardless of whether I actually agree.

Having said that, "the fact that no one is stepping up for OP" is no fact at all. I haven't done much outreach to alumni until recently, and I've left most of them thinking it was a half hour well spent. Just not the one referred to in the OP, which was the first to cite "but they're busy, they're not going to respond."

Of course, I didn't explicitly request that the alum pass my resume along to their former coworkers. I asked it in more general terms, which I thought was standard to ask at the end of "informational interviews": do you know anyone else who you think it'd be helpful for me to talk to? I told [this other person at the office] that when I asked "do you have any suggestions on who I should speak to next," some other alums take the hint and CC me and some other person who then asks for my resume. It was only then that [this other office person] told me that the OP alum didn't think I had done enough work for them, as opposed to for the office generally, to warrant a recommendation. That and, because the alum had been out of biglaw for 8-10 years now, they don't even know who the head HR honcho is nowadays.

But hey, I guess it's a sign of stable mental health to read into "they're too busy to respond..." your interpretation that this outlier alum thinks poorly of my candidacy or my personality. After all, I had "agreed" with you on that score (and everything else, including your predictions for tomorrow's Lotto numbers).

[A. Nony Mouse]

So basically you're saying that the alum you described in the OP doesn't actually think people are too busy to respond, he just didn't want to recommend you because you hadn't done enough work for him personally.

You get this supports everyone who said he wasn't telling you "people are too busy" because he actually believes that, right?

[LeDique]

I can't get over this "let me start by saying I agree with you so no one will criticize me but let me make it abundantly clear i actually disagree with everything you said" tactic. it is amazing

(very mentally stable)

[JazzOne]

I also find it amusing that OP is complaining about a lack of networking opportunities while simultaneously disparaging a forum that facilitates networking.

[lavarman84]

I haven't done much outreach to alumni until recently, and I've left most of them thinking it was a half hour well spent.

Did they let you know this in a facebook status? Or was it a tweet? Or do you read minds?

[JazzOne]

I haven't done much outreach to alumni until recently, and I've left most of them thinking it was a half hour well spent.

Did they let you know this in a facebook status? Or was it a tweet? Or do you read minds?

To be fair, it's reasonable to interpret that sentence as indicating OP's satisfaction with the meetings, not the attorneys'.

[lavarman84]

I haven't done much outreach to alumni until recently, and I've left most of them thinking it was a half hour well spent.

Did they let you know this in a facebook status? Or was it a tweet? Or do you read minds?

To be fair, it's reasonable to interpret that sentence as indicating OP's satisfaction with the meetings, not the attorneys'.

Fair. Maybe I'm just reading too much arrogance into OP's posts.

[JazzOne]

I haven't done much outreach to alumni until recently, and I've left most of them thinking it was a half hour well spent.

Did they let you know this in a facebook status? Or was it a tweet? Or do you read minds?

To be fair, it's reasonable to interpret that sentence as indicating OP's satisfaction with the meetings, not the attorneys'.

Fair. Maybe I'm just reading too much arrogance into OP's posts.

Now that I've had more time to reflect on OP's sarcasm and condescension, I think your interpretation is probably correct.

[Anonymous User]

I can't get over this "let me start by saying I agree with you so no one will criticize me but let me make it abundantly clear i actually disagree with everything you said" tactic. it is amazing

(very mentally stable)

I agree. It's totally what I would do IRL, where, like TLS, disagreeing 2 consecutive times invites an "OMG you're so defensive!!!" (followed by +1's [e.g., JazzOne's +1'ing a wisecrack], CR's, etc.--that all characterizes IRL interactions too).

So basically you're saying that the alum you described in the OP doesn't actually think people are too busy to respond, he just didn't want to recommend you because you hadn't done enough work for him personally.

You get this supports everyone who said he wasn't telling you "people are too busy" because he actually believes that, right?

I don't know if the OP alum actually thinks people are too busy to respond or not. I'm saying that, during the meeting itself, they responded to my general, standard query of "do you have any suggestions on who I should speak to next" with "they're too busy." Whether that was the real reason because the OP alum understood that to mean "can you pass my resume along" is another question.

It was only when the [other office person] asked "what were you hoping for when you asked..." that I said "well ideally, a CC'ed introduction or their passing my resume along, without me specifically requesting that" (which I didn't). And it was only then that [this other office person] said that OP alum thinks basically this:

Just because the meeting may have gone well doesn't mean that person is comfortable recommending you...If I recommend someone for a job, or in any way attach my name to that person with even a hint of recommendation in a professional setting, I am 110% sure I'm comfortable doing so. If there is even the slightest doubt, I'm not doing it.

Which is a long way from the Powerball Predictor gurus' "lol the fact that they 'refused' indicates you're a walking personality order."

I haven't done much outreach to alumni until recently, and I've left most of them thinking it was a half hour well spent.

Did they let you know this in a facebook status? Or was it a tweet? Or do you read minds?

Yes, because that and "I left the meetings thinking that they thought it was a half hour well spent" are totally the same.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Your original question was how networking works if alums are too busy. People responded suggesting that the "they're too busy" response meant that the person you met with didn't want to pass your resume along, for whatever reason. Now it turns out that in fact the person you met with didn't want to pass your resume along.

People also suggested reasons why this might not be the case, which you are more than free to disagree with, but initially your confusion appeared to be over how this works, based on taking what the alum said at face value, and people told you not to take what he said at face value. So you might want to think about your assessment of what's going on in these conversations.

[Anonymous User]

Your original question was how networking works if alums are too busy. People responded suggesting that the "they're too busy" response meant that the person you met with didn't want to pass your resume along, for whatever reason. Now it turns out that in fact the person you met with didn't want to pass your resume along.

People also suggested reasons why this might not be the case, which you are more than free to disagree with, but initially your confusion appeared to be over how this works, based on taking what the alum said at face value, and people told you not to take what he said at face value. So you might want to think about your assessment of what's going on in these conversations.

At the time the OP alum responded with "they're too busy," all I had asked of them was the general, standard "do you have any suggestions on who I should speak to next to learn more about..." Nothing about passing resumes along, recommending me, vouching for me, etc. In fact, because that was the only interaction I had with the OP alum, the general request remains the only one.

Now, if I had asked the OP alum any of the more specific requests, then yes it'd be hard to conclude that their response was anything but a polite way to decline that request. But I never asked them that. I only brought up with a third party that "ideally, when I ask alums the general request, some might take the hint and offer on their own initiative to pass my resume along." I never brought that up with the OP alum. So I don't see how "they're too busy" could serve as a polite way to decline a request I never made.

[LeDique]

u should watch frozen u could learn a lot

[rpupkin]

OP is speaking truth to power in this thread. LOL @ the TLS hive trying to trade punches with an intellectual heavyweight.

[Anonymous User]

OP is speaking truth to power in this thread. LOL @ the TLS hive trying to trade punches with an intellectual heavyweight.

No, the true intellectuals are the people who write posts like this:

i always take the call if someone contacts me

e: unless op

lol +1

And LeDique, who's just been on fire with topical, helpful insight.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Your original question was how networking works if alums are too busy. People responded suggesting that the "they're too busy" response meant that the person you met with didn't want to pass your resume along, for whatever reason. Now it turns out that in fact the person you met with didn't want to pass your resume along.

People also suggested reasons why this might not be the case, which you are more than free to disagree with, but initially your confusion appeared to be over how this works, based on taking what the alum said at face value, and people told you not to take what he said at face value. So you might want to think about your assessment of what's going on in these conversations.

At the time the OP alum responded with "they're too busy," all I had asked of them was the general, standard "do you have any suggestions on who I should speak to next to learn more about..." Nothing about passing resumes along, recommending me, vouching for me, etc. In fact, because that was the only interaction I had with the OP alum, the general request remains the only one.

Now, if I had asked the OP alum any of the more specific requests, then yes it'd be hard to conclude that their response was anything but a polite way to decline that request. But I never asked them that. I only brought up with a third party that "ideally, when I ask alums the general request, some might take the hint and offer on their own initiative to pass my resume along." I never brought that up with the OP alum. So I don't see how "they're too busy" could serve as a polite way to decline a request I never made.

So you expect him to be able to take the hint and offer to pass your resume along, at the same time you're arguing you never made that direct request and so they couldn't have actually known that's what you wanted?

[LeDique]

nony how are you still responding to this person earnestly i will never understand your patience. just like there is nothing OP could say to convince the alum to help him, there is nothing u can say to convince OP to help himself

[LeDique]

to be fair, it is a time honored tradition on tls to start a thread and:

1) ask for advice, but really be looking to be told you are right
2) ppl give the advice you asked for, but not the advice you wanted
3) argue with the ppl you sought advice from
4) slowly add or change details to the story to try to make ppl agree with u
5) start furiously lashing out at everyone replying to u
6) have nony continue patiently replying to u

ironically tho this thread started from op doing exactly this in real life, i think that is a new twist

[Anonymous User]

Your original question was how networking works if alums are too busy. People responded suggesting that the "they're too busy" response meant that the person you met with didn't want to pass your resume along, for whatever reason. Now it turns out that in fact the person you met with didn't want to pass your resume along.

People also suggested reasons why this might not be the case, which you are more than free to disagree with, but initially your confusion appeared to be over how this works, based on taking what the alum said at face value, and people told you not to take what he said at face value. So you might want to think about your assessment of what's going on in these conversations.

At the time the OP alum responded with "they're too busy," all I had asked of them was the general, standard "do you have any suggestions on who I should speak to next to learn more about..." Nothing about passing resumes along, recommending me, vouching for me, etc. In fact, because that was the only interaction I had with the OP alum, the general request remains the only one.

Now, if I had asked the OP alum any of the more specific requests, then yes it'd be hard to conclude that their response was anything but a polite way to decline that request. But I never asked them that. I only brought up with a third party that "ideally, when I ask alums the general request, some might take the hint and offer on their own initiative to pass my resume along." I never brought that up with the OP alum. So I don't see how "they're too busy" could serve as a polite way to decline a request I never made.

So you expect him to be able to take the hint and offer to pass your resume along, at the same time you're arguing you never made that direct request and so they couldn't have actually known that's what you wanted?

[Anonymous User]

So you expect him to be able to take the hint and offer to pass your resume along, at the same time you're arguing you never made that direct request and so they couldn't have actually known that's what you wanted?

OK I realize there is some tension there, let me clarify.
If I make the general request "do you have any suggestions on who I should speak to next to learn more about... that we can agree is more or less standard in these interactions, and they respond:

1. "Hmmm let me think. Why don't you send me your resume and I'll see if there's anyone I can pass it to"--then they both responded at face value and took the hint. By took the hint I don't mean I deliberately try to couch a specific request ("can you pass my resume along") in a more general one. I mean I make the same general request each time, never anything more specific, and if they happen to respond as if I had asked the more specific requests, that'd be the ideal outcome from these alumni interactions, though of course not every meeting elicits this result.

2. "Yes, I knew a guy there, John Smith, let me see if I can find his email address"--then they've just responded at face value. From this there's no way to tell if the alum inferred "oh I see, you're really asking me ___, but I'll respond to your general inquiry as a polite way to decline the more specific request you left unsaid." In fact wouldn't you say it'd take some impressive mental gymnastics to read that interpretation into the alum's simple reply of "let me see if I can find John Smith's email"?

3. "I would, but they're busy billing"--I see it the same as #2. Basically, it'd only be clear that they understood me to be making a far more specific request if they actually grant that specific request as if I had made it. If they don't acknowledge it, then how am I--or anyone--to know if a) they did take the hint and politely declined or b) didn't, and simply responded at face value to the particular general question posed (as in #2)?

[A. Nony Mouse]

nony how are you still responding to this person earnestly i will never understand your patience. just like there is nothing OP could say to convince the alum to help him, there is nothing u can say to convince OP to help himself

There is nothing I can do to help myself and not respond, either! I suffer deeply from "someone is wrong on the Internet" syndrome.

[ek5dn]

to be fair, it is a time honored tradition on tls to start a thread and:

1) ask for advice, but really be looking to be told you are right
2) ppl give the advice you asked for, but not the advice you wanted
3) argue with the ppl you sought advice from
4) slowly add or change details to the story to try to make ppl agree with u
5) start furiously lashing out at everyone replying to u
6) have nony continue patiently replying to u

ironically tho this thread started from op doing exactly this in real life, i think that is a new twist

this is scary accurate

[dixiecupdrinking]

The notion of replying earnestly to this thread, for eternity, is basically my personal vision of hell.