HLS EIP 2016 Forum

[TripTrip]

As you approach your work the rest of this summer, actively think about things that you can talk about in your interview. Things you drafted, read, participated on, even things that you want to know more about (firms like when you're curious). Have an answer for what you liked about 1L/HLS that you can deliver with a straight face. Your grades are in the books, even if you straight P'd you can still play that hand into a job you enjoy tolerate. Also, be able to talk about the interest section in your resume (I was surprised by how often that came up, one interviewer even led with it.)

I had one H (in my freaking elective) and landed multple V10 offers in part because I was able to have a non-awkward conversation for 30 minutes. I know a lot of you and there's very few people at HLS who can't have an interesting conversation for 30 minutes. I sincerely believe that and it's backed up by my interactions with you all. I say this not as a humblebrag but to set up this quote I got that came from a screener when I was trying to explain my academic performance.

I'll stop you right there, when we go to some other schools, yeah, we're checking to see if the students have the firepower to do the work. Here, we dont really worry about that, we know you're qualified, we're checking to see if you have the drive.

Fair or not, that's what being here gets you in most of the firms' eyes. Don't get dragged down by self doubt. Don't say you have the drive, show them by talking about the things you've done and the things that interested you.

I leave you with this:
https://youtu.be/Q4PE2hSqVnk?t=7m22s

A recruiter doesn't walk on the lot unless their willing to buy!

Also, SML is spot on here.

In all the statistical analysis and data mining of student outcomes I've done, I can't get an R-squared above about 45% for screener conversions. Using grades, journal participation, resume line items, work experience, bidding strategies, race, and gender, I can only explain less than half of the variance from the mean number of screeners converted to callbacks. That number drops to 15% when discussing callback to offer conversions. The rest of that is both a bit of randomness and, more importantly, some students just being better at talking during interviews, regardless of their background.

That second number (0.15 R-squared) indicates that once you get to the callback stage, your resume is almost irrelevant. It's mostly about how you handle yourself.

[MAHamlin]

Does anyone have any insight into whether we should be reaching out to firms Pre-EIP? I know OCS is not a fan but I've been hearing a lot about it lately and I didn't even know that it was a common thing that happened.

Sort of depends on what you mean by "reaching out." Like others said, I wouldn't worry about reaching out to firms in an attempt to initiate the job-hiring process. Leave that part to EIP--there will be plenty of opportunity for it then.

However, I did find it to be incredibly helpful to reach out to associates at the various firms to just chat about the firm and their experience. I just looked for HLS alumni, preferably in the area of interest, and sent them an email introducing myself as an HLS student interested in their firm and asking if they could spare some time to chat. Every single associate I emailed--and I emailed nearly 30 of them--got back in touch with me and was more than happy to spend a few minutes talking about the firm, their experiences, etc.

Sometimes I got really good information. Sometimes I didn't. The big benefit, though, was that it became an extra avenue to show interest in the firm during OCI. Generally the firms send HLS alumni to do the interviews and, therefore, there's a reasonable chance they will know whichever HLS alumnus you spoke with at the firm. The interaction often went something like this:

Interviewer: We also have a such-and-such policy that is awesome because of blah-blah-blah.

Me: I actually heard about that from Leroy Jenkins and thought that was really unique/interesting/blah blah blah.

Interviewer: Oh! Do you know Leroy? He and I were summers together!

Me: Yeah. I actually spoke with him a few weeks ago. I was trying to learn more about the firm so I reached out to him last month because he was an HLS grad and in such-and-such group. Leroy's awesome! He was able to tell me about your XYZ policy and ABC group. Speaking of which, can you tell me about...

Given that I did this for nearly every firm, it's hard for me to know whether or not it made a significant difference in my result. If I had to do it over again, though, I would do it the same. YMMV.

[Anonymous User]

1DS 7H 2P

Would I run into problems bidding 3-5 firms in my home market while the majority of my bids are in NYC? Also, how realistic is WLRK?

[nothingtosee]

1DS 7H 2P

Would I run into problems bidding 3-5 firms in my home market while the majority of my bids are in NYC? Also, how realistic is WLRK?

Bid anything you want. But if you don't think you'd go to your home market, don't waste your time.

[TripTrip]

But if you don't think you'd go to your home market, don't waste your time.

+1. I bid on Minneapolis and Milwaukee. That ended up being silly because there was no way I was going to that small of a market.

[wwwcol]

1DS 7H 2P

Would I run into problems bidding 3-5 firms in my home market while the majority of my bids are in NYC? Also, how realistic is WLRK?

Also remember that Atl market is 155 and Charlotte is 50/50 155/180 so potentially a big salary differential.

[nothingtosee]

But if you don't think you'd go to your home market, don't waste your time.

+1. I bid on Minneapolis and Milwaukee. That ended up being silly because there was no way I was going to that small of a market.

Following up on this, you have to be a very unusual HLS student to work at a firm in a market that didn't pay 160/doesn't pay 180. This is the number of rising 3Ls working in a non-market paying market.

Atlanta: 2
Birmingham: 2
Boise: 1
Des Moines: 1
Kansas City: 1
Miami: 4
Mobile: 1
Philadelphia: 4
Pittsburgh: 2
Sacramento: 1
San Antonio: 1
Seattle: 5
Wilmington: 1

So some students do go to small markets. But if you're walking on whether you would do it, or it's your second choice, it's a lot better to bid only interviews you care about. EIP can be tiring, and you wouldn't want a worse interview with a firm you care about Thursday because you did two interviews you don't care anything about Wednesday.

Edited

[Anonymous User]

But if you don't think you'd go to your home market, don't waste your time.

+1. I bid on Minneapolis and Milwaukee. That ended up being silly because there was no way I was going to that small of a market.

Following up on this, you have to be a very unusual HLS student to work at a firm in a market that didn't pay 160/doesn't pay 180. This is the number of rising 3Ls working in a non-market paying market.

Atlanta: 2
Birmingham: 2
Boise: 1
Des Moines: 1
Kansas City: 1
Miami: 4
Mobile: 1
Philadelphia: 4
Pittsburgh: 2
Sacramento: 1
San Antonio: 1
San Diego: 3
Seattle: 5
Wilmington: 1

So some students do go to small markets. But if you're walking on whether you would do it, or it's your second choice, it's a lot better to bid only interviews you care about. EIP can be tiring, and you wouldn't want a worse interview with a firm you care about Thursday because you did two interviews you don't care anything about Wednesday.

San Diego (will likely) pay market. Prior to the raise to 180 all the big firms in the area already paid market. Post-180 raise some of those firms have already announced 180 in SD.

[Anonymous User]

1DS 7H 2P

Would I run into problems bidding 3-5 firms in my home market while the majority of my bids are in NYC? Also, how realistic is WLRK?

Also remember that Atl market is 155 and Charlotte is 50/50 155/180 so potentially a big salary differential.

Salary isn't a dispositive factor for me since cost of living is so much lower in those cities.

Thanks for the input everyone. I will go ahead and make a separate thread for the NYC/home market discussion to not clog this one. On topic, what do you guys think I would need to bid for backup in NYC?

[Anonymous User]

Accidental post.

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

A quick shout out to my peeps with 0-3 Hs or an LP. You're gonna see a lot of people with 4-9Hs looking for advice and maybe having their own panic like feelings. Don't be discouraged, they're nervous about how to play their hand. Continuing with the poker analogy. You're not at the same table as them right now. So don't let someone two tables over with pocket aces freak you out because you've got queens. You've got a hand that's got a strong winning percentage and with 30ish interviews that's good enough.

And you didn't want to work at those firms anyway

LP would be like suited 9-10. Not the greatest hand but playable.

[Anonymous User]

A quick shout out to my peeps with 0-3 Hs or an LP. You're gonna see a lot of people with 4-9Hs looking for advice and maybe having their own panic like feelings. Don't be discouraged, they're nervous about how to play their hand. Continuing with the poker analogy. You're not at the same table as them right now. So don't let someone two tables over with pocket aces freak you out because you've got queens. You've got a hand that's got a strong winning percentage and with 30ish interviews that's good enough.

And you didn't want to work at those firms anyway

LP would be like suited 9-10. Not the greatest hand but playable.

Thanks so much for this. I keep seeing posts worrying about eg 6Hs and I'm just here wishing I had two.

[Anonymous User]

How many Hs do you need for MTO LA with LA ties? What about MTO DC with no DC ties aside from working here 1L summer?

[TripTrip]

How many Hs do you need for MTO LA with LA ties? What about MTO DC with no DC ties aside from working here 1L summer?

MTO LA: magna competitive generally.

MTO DC: They have a DC office?

[Anonymous User]

Tag. Also is an NY to 180 filter or checkbox on Dope a thing that is doable, TripTrip?

Yeah. This is part of why I'm shooting for next Monday after the dust settles.

If there ends up being a divide in pay scales, last year's results data will be almost meaningless.

Don't want to nag and thanks so much for the work you're doing on dope, but will this be a thing? If not is there a reliable source for which firms have gone to 180 besides atl or is atl the most accurate?

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

Tag. Also is an NY to 180 filter or checkbox on Dope a thing that is doable, TripTrip?

Yeah. This is part of why I'm shooting for next Monday after the dust settles.

If there ends up being a divide in pay scales, last year's results data will be almost meaningless.

Don't want to nag and thanks so much for the work you're doing on dope, but will this be a thing? If not is there a reliable source for which firms have gone to 180 besides atl or is atl the most accurate?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=264911

There's a high probability that ATL was using this thread for leads. In part because this thread seems to get updated before ATL in most scenarios.

A word of caution. Most of the V-whatever have already adjusted to the new scale. It's gonna be hard to put together a bid list that's not mostly comprised of 180 firms. So go ahead and do that and then look to see who's matched, chances are the 2-5 firms on your list that havnt matches will match by the time lists are due.

If you're thinking that you don't want to work for a firm that took 2+ weeks to match, that's your prerogative.

[Anonymous User]

What firms do you think are wasted bids with 4Hs in DC? Any shot at W&C, AP, Cov? The recruiter guy I spoke with through OCS seemed to think they were reaches but that I should certainly bid them. Seems to be counter to some advice I've heard on here, seems like 4Hs is below their threshold. Any feedback would be great.

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

What firms do you think are wasted bids with 4Hs in DC? Any shot at W&C, AP, Cov? The recruiter guy I spoke with through OCS seemed to think they were reaches but that I should certainly bid them. Seems to be counter to some advice I've heard on here, seems like 4Hs is below their threshold. Any feedback would be great.

They're reaches not a hard no. You have a lot of bids at least five of them should be ones where you swing for the fences and at least a few should be safeties.

I know someone who got W&C with three Hs.

[Anonymous User]

If a firm has a 50-60% bid:interview rate, how high should we be listing the firm in order to feel safe about getting an interview? Do people miss out on interviews with firms they list in their top 5?

[Indy16]

If I'm interested in Quinn (or any other firm not going to be at EIP) when would I go about sending my materials their way?

[a corsair]

Thanks Trip for the incredible bidding tools (and everything else) on dope! Hopefully the administration can successfully merge everything you built (or hopefully you'll stick around forever )

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

If I'm interested in Quinn (or any other firm not going to be at EIP) when would I go about sending my materials their way?

IIRC Quinn nixed its summer program all together. As for other firms, I would have stuff hitting desks the day after the Fourth of July.

[TripTrip]

Tag. Also is an NY to 180 filter or checkbox on Dope a thing that is doable, TripTrip?

Yeah. This is part of why I'm shooting for next Monday after the dust settles.

If there ends up being a divide in pay scales, last year's results data will be almost meaningless.

Don't want to nag and thanks so much for the work you're doing on dope, but will this be a thing? If not is there a reliable source for which firms have gone to 180 besides atl or is atl the most accurate?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=264911

There's a high probability that ATL was using this thread for leads. In part because this thread seems to get updated before ATL in most scenarios.

A word of caution. Most of the V-whatever have already adjusted to the new scale. It's gonna be hard to put together a bid list that's not mostly comprised of 180 firms. So go ahead and do that and then look to see who's matched, chances are the 2-5 firms on your list that havnt matches will match by the time lists are due.

If you're thinking that you don't want to work for a firm that took 2+ weeks to match, that's your prerogative.

Exactly this. Right now there aren't any major firms in major markets that have confirmed they are not matching. If I tried to start updating now, it would be hit-and-miss whether I could keep up to date and accurate data on every firm's decisions. If there ends up being a real divide before bidding starts, I'll add the distinctions where possible.

To answer your question though: the only resource I would probably use besides TLS and ATL would be Chambers Associate, and Dope has a link to the Chambers page which lists first-year salaries.

What firms do you think are wasted bids with 4Hs in DC? Any shot at W&C, AP, Cov? The recruiter guy I spoke with through OCS seemed to think they were reaches but that I should certainly bid them. Seems to be counter to some advice I've heard on here, seems like 4Hs is below their threshold. Any feedback would be great.

There's nothing wrong with bidding reaches. That's why you have 35 bids. You seem to already know you're not a shoe-in. As long as you are also bidding elsewhere it's fine to bid on a few firms you don't think you're fully qualified for.

If a firm has a 50-60% bid:interview rate, how high should we be listing the firm in order to feel safe about getting an interview? Do people miss out on interviews with firms they list in their top 5?

This is tricky to answer because we haven't analyzed data on how high you have to bid on each firm to get it instead of what percentage of bids get interviews. It's made especially difficult by the fact that some firms adjust their schedules in July based on how many people bid on them. My gut feeling is top 10 for the 50% category, but I don't have data to back that up.

It's worth noting that you're also bidding against yourself: you have to have an open timeslot that matches up with the firm to get an interview. If you put a firm you want too low on your list because you think it's a sure thing, you might not get it simply because your schedule was too full. That's why it's a good idea to bid firms you want higher even if they have a high bid success rate.

Thanks Trip for the incredible bidding tools (and everything else) on dope! Hopefully the administration can successfully merge everything you built (or hopefully you'll stick around forever )

Aww shucks. Thanks!

[wwwcol]

If I'm interested in Quinn (or any other firm not going to be at EIP) when would I go about sending my materials their way?

IIRC Quinn nixed its summer program all together. As for other firms, I would have stuff hitting desks the day after the Fourth of July.

Yup, Quinn cut its summer program.

As for the salary talk, the only firm HLS people go to that hasn't matched yet is Jones Day. There are lots of V50-100 firms in secondary markets not paying the 180 scale but salaries in those markets (eg KC, St Louis, Atl, etc) have always been below NY scale so that's not news to anyone.

[Anonymous User]

Dumb question I guess. But Dope currently shows choate as being almost 100% corporate. Was I wrong to think they were a full service firm w/a lit dept?