Northwestern OCI 2016 Forum

[Mullens]

Some of you guys mentioned getting a credit card with good miles rewards, but if the firm sets the flights/hotels up, how would we get the miles? I only have experience with my parents' card and the miles go to the card used to pay for the flight...so? Or does the firm just give a voucher/reimburse, making the miles ours to get? Or am I just misunderstanding? If so, suggestions on the best card to get?

Also, what's up with the OCI list of firms frequently saying "no multiple interviews," and yet some of those firms have separate interview spots (one for NY, one for Chicago, etc.) Do we have to pick one then? I figured this was the case, but I'd really like to express interest in multiple office locations for some of these firms. Can we mass-mail the office locations we didn't bid on?

Even if firms pay for your flights/hotels, you will still spend more money than you think. If you travel for CBs (or I guess if you're doing an OTIP but that money is just out of pocket), you will have to pay for all your meals and transit and then get reimbursed from firms. Most people also likely need to buy some interview clothes as most people don't come into 1L with appropriate interview attire and this is not the time or place to get cheap.

I like the Chase Sapphire Preferred (has a fee after the first year) and you can probably get 50,000 free miles if you spend $4000 over 3 months. There's blogs about the best offers and I would peruse some of those before deciding to get a new card. You generally get the miles for money spent on anything, not just on flights.

As far as multiple interviews, I would avoid interviewing for multiple office locations if possible. It can look like you don't know where you want to work or that you might be a flight risk. Believe it or not, Career Services might be useful here to tell you how firms view interviewing with different offices. 3Ls/recent grads might also be a good resource for how their firms view it.

[Anonymous User]

Some of you guys mentioned getting a credit card with good miles rewards, but if the firm sets the flights/hotels up, how would we get the miles? I only have experience with my parents' card and the miles go to the card used to pay for the flight...so? Or does the firm just give a voucher/reimburse, making the miles ours to get? Or am I just misunderstanding? If so, suggestions on the best card to get?

Also, what's up with the OCI list of firms frequently saying "no multiple interviews," and yet some of those firms have separate interview spots (one for NY, one for Chicago, etc.) Do we have to pick one then? I figured this was the case, but I'd really like to express interest in multiple office locations for some of these firms. Can we mass-mail the office locations we didn't bid on?

Even if firms pay for your flights/hotels, you will still spend more money than you think. If you travel for CBs (or I guess if you're doing an OTIP but that money is just out of pocket), you will have to pay for all your meals and transit and then get reimbursed from firms. Most people also likely need to buy some interview clothes as most people don't come into 1L with appropriate interview attire and this is not the time or place to get cheap.

I like the Chase Sapphire Preferred (has a fee after the first year) and you can probably get 50,000 free miles if you spend $4000 over 3 months. There's blogs about the best offers and I would peruse some of those before deciding to get a new card. You generally get the miles for money spent on anything, not just on flights.

As far as multiple interviews, I would avoid interviewing for multiple office locations if possible. It can look like you don't know where you want to work or that you might be a flight risk. Believe it or not, Career Services might be useful here to tell you how firms view interviewing with different offices. 3Ls/recent grads might also be a good resource for how their firms view it.

Also not a bad idea to look at a card that gives you 12 or 15 months of 0% interest. This will allow you to refrain from having to take out more loan money to pay for the expenses and just pay the minimum until you get your first SA paycheck. Obviously firms will cover some of the cost, but for interview clothing, meals, etc. that are not covered by firms.

[cookiejar1]

Cross posting this from itbdvorm's thread as I think it's exceptional advice:

From another thread, because it's just good advice:

In 2016, if you haven't emailed a bunch of firms asking about coming in for interviews pre-EIP, you are behind the 8 ball, not just at CLS, but among peer schools. The summers I was at firms the number of people coming through for mass-mail callback interviews grew substantially and the number of offers given out grew as well. My EIP year, a few people skipped EIP entirely and a great many more walked in the door with 1-3 offers from very desirable firms (e.g. Shearman, Skadden, Paul Weiss, Covington, DP, etc) and offices (e.g. LA/SF/DC/CHI). Last year, the number was even higher and I expect it'll continue to rise.

Coming into EIP with one or more offers in hand is a massive stress reliever and, I believe, makes people better interviewers because they aren't desperate and nervous anymore.

When should you start doing this? RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Early/Mid July is very active.

If you consider yourself to be a competitive candidate (top 10-15%+ grades and/or good work experience) you should start mass mailing firms right now. Sure, many firms will just encourage you to bid on them when they come to OCI but some may extend a call back to you immediately. You don't need to write some grand cover letter. A single short paragraph expressing an interest in the firm in the body of an email with your resume attached (GPA featuring prominently) will suffice.

[Anonymous User]

Cross posting this from itbdvorm's thread as I think it's exceptional advice:

From another thread, because it's just good advice:

In 2016, if you haven't emailed a bunch of firms asking about coming in for interviews pre-EIP, you are behind the 8 ball, not just at CLS, but among peer schools. The summers I was at firms the number of people coming through for mass-mail callback interviews grew substantially and the number of offers given out grew as well. My EIP year, a few people skipped EIP entirely and a great many more walked in the door with 1-3 offers from very desirable firms (e.g. Shearman, Skadden, Paul Weiss, Covington, DP, etc) and offices (e.g. LA/SF/DC/CHI). Last year, the number was even higher and I expect it'll continue to rise.

Coming into EIP with one or more offers in hand is a massive stress reliever and, I believe, makes people better interviewers because they aren't desperate and nervous anymore.

When should you start doing this? RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Early/Mid July is very active.

If you consider yourself to be a competitive candidate (top 10-15%+ grades and/or good work experience) you should start mass mailing firms right now. Sure, many firms will just encourage you to bid on them when they come to OCI but some may extend a call back to you immediately. You don't need to write some grand cover letter. A single short paragraph expressing an interest in the firm in the body of an email with your resume attached (GPA featuring prominently) will suffice.

I'm in this position (3.9 + good work experience + book award). CSO told me to only mass mail firms that weren't gonna be at OCI, and to only mass mail starting early July. Sounds like both pieces of advice are way off then?

Another q - I should even mass mail my top chicago firms (kirkland, sidley, etc.) right now?

[Anonymous User]

If you consider yourself to be a competitive candidate (top 10-15%+ grades and/or good work experience) you should start mass mailing firms right now. Sure, many firms will just encourage you to bid on them when they come to OCI but some may extend a call back to you immediately. You don't need to write some grand cover letter. A single short paragraph expressing an interest in the firm in the body of an email with your resume attached (GPA featuring prominently) will suffice.

I'm in this position (3.9 + good work experience + book award). CSO told me to only mass mail firms that weren't gonna be at OCI, and to only mass mail starting early July. Sounds like both pieces of advice are way off then?

Another q - I should even mass mail my top chicago firms (kirkland, sidley, etc.) right now?

ooc by book award do you mean the book award for CLR or K&E Scholar?

~4.0 and same questions. CSO also told me to mass-mail pre-OCI only those firms not coming to OCI. IIRC that was the advice given in the 2015 thread.

[Anonymous User]

If you consider yourself to be a competitive candidate (top 10-15%+ grades and/or good work experience) you should start mass mailing firms right now. Sure, many firms will just encourage you to bid on them when they come to OCI but some may extend a call back to you immediately. You don't need to write some grand cover letter. A single short paragraph expressing an interest in the firm in the body of an email with your resume attached (GPA featuring prominently) will suffice.

I'm in this position (3.9 + good work experience + book award). CSO told me to only mass mail firms that weren't gonna be at OCI, and to only mass mail starting early July. Sounds like both pieces of advice are way off then?

Another q - I should even mass mail my top chicago firms (kirkland, sidley, etc.) right now?

ooc by book award do you mean the book award for CLR or K&E Scholar?

~4.0 and same questions. CSO also told me to mass-mail pre-OCI only those firms not coming to OCI. IIRC that was the advice given in the 2015 thread.

To anon - CLR

To cookiejar again - I worry that I would come across as presumptuous by sending my rez + a note to my top picks that will be at OCI. I can't assume anything, but I imagine I'll get CBs from some/many of those firms at OCI. Thoughts?

[cookiejar1]

I'm in this position (3.9 + good work experience + book award). CSO told me to only mass mail firms that weren't gonna be at OCI, and to only mass mail starting early July. Sounds like both pieces of advice are way off then?

Another q - I should even mass mail my top chicago firms (kirkland, sidley, etc.) right now?

To cookiejar again - I worry that I would come across as presumptuous by sending my rez + a note to my top picks that will be at OCI. I can't assume anything, but I imagine I'll get CBs from some/many of those firms at OCI. Thoughts?

There is no NALP rule when it comes to contacting firms that you know are coming to OCI. I suspect CSO's rules are in place so as to prevent people from abusing the process (or, even worse, annoying the employers). So I would generally follow them with that in mind. However, know that there is a bit of bend here.

With a 3.9/4.0 you will probably clean up Chicago provided that you interview sufficiently well. Since Kirkland and Sidley have such institutional relationships with Northwestern I'd wait for them come OCI. You'll be in a very good position there. However, OCI can be a nerve wrecking process—even for those with stellar credentials. If you get a pre-OCI offer you won't have to act so risk adverse during OCI (i.e., you can cut out all of your "safety" firms). So if I were in your shoes I'd send off my resume to a bunch of NYC firms (e.g., the Skaddens and Paul, Weiss' of the world) and firms in my secondary market and save my "favorite" firms for OCI. Whittling down your OCI schedule is good for a number of different reasons: (1) it allows you to focus, (2) it's definitely less fatiguing, and (3) if it makes you feel good you'll probably be helping out your classmates who will need way more interviews than you will need to collect the same amount of offers.

[feralinfant]

So if I were in your shoes I'd send off my resume to a bunch of NYC firms (e.g., the Skaddens and Paul, Weiss' of the world) and firms in my secondary market and save my "favorite" firms for OCI.

blatant PW trolling.

More seriously, cookie likely knows better but I always was under the impression not to mail firms that are coming to OCI that you dont have some other reason to mail (ie, you mailed them during 1L and have some kind of relationship etc. for example i knew people who got 1L callbacks that didn't seal the deal but were able to auto callback at firms coming to oci before oci started).

is this really not conventional wisdom?

[Anonymous User]

So if I were in your shoes I'd send off my resume to a bunch of NYC firms (e.g., the Skaddens and Paul, Weiss' of the world) and firms in my secondary market and save my "favorite" firms for OCI.

blatant PW trolling.

More seriously, cookie likely knows better but I always was under the impression not to mail firms that are coming to OCI that you dont have some other reason to mail (ie, you mailed them during 1L and have some kind of relationship etc. for example i knew people who got 1L callbacks that didn't seal the deal but were able to auto callback at firms coming to oci before oci started).

is this really not conventional wisdom?

This is anon that was asking cookie the mass mail questions. I mass mailed pretty much every major Chicago firm for 1L SAs. For the ones that didn't have spots, rejected me after screener and rejected after callback, many of them said "keep in touch as OCI approaches" etc. is this an invitation to email them my resume, like, now?

[Anonymous User]

Guys how low can we bid Sidley/ Kirkland (80 slots each) and still be confident we'll get a screener? For that matter, is it about the same for Mayer (60), Skadden (60) and Latham (76)? Going through past threads, couldn't really pinpoint a number, but my gut tells me something like 7-8 for K&E and Sidley is a pretty safe bet.

[Mullens]

Guys how low can we bid Sidley/ Kirkland (80 slots each) and still be confident we'll get a screener? For that matter, is it about the same for Mayer (60), Skadden (60) and Latham (76)? Going through past threads, couldn't really pinpoint a number, but my gut tells me something like 7-8 for K&E and Sidley is a pretty safe bet.

That seems about right for K&E and Sidley. I would caution that if you're highly competitive for them (3.8+) that you should move them up a bit and not get too cute. They know how many slots they have and when people add them last minute (you might not be on their initial schedule). It looks bad and you're far less likely to get a CB if you miss them originally. The only reason to have them that low would be to try to get spots at less selective firms with fewer spots and frankly you should leave those spots (at firms like Baker & McKenize and Katten) to classmates who aren't as competitive since you're likely to get an offer at a K&E/Sidley/Latham/Skadden. If you're splitting Chicago and another market, it gets a little more complicated and might be a good idea to post your whole bid list.

Also just to throw it out there while on the topic of people with high grades, Wachtell has a formula they give to the CSO to decide who to invite to apply. Not sure exactly what it is, but I have it on good information that it is some combination of top 5% (3.9ish) and having bid NY firms in your top ten (not entirely sure exactly how this second part plays out). Other top firms (Munger/Susman) post resume requests on symplicity so be on the lookout for those.

[Anonymous User]

So if I were in your shoes I'd send off my resume to a bunch of NYC firms (e.g., the Skaddens and Paul, Weiss' of the world) and firms in my secondary market and save my "favorite" firms for OCI.

blatant PW trolling.

More seriously, cookie likely knows better but I always was under the impression not to mail firms that are coming to OCI that you dont have some other reason to mail (ie, you mailed them during 1L and have some kind of relationship etc. for example i knew people who got 1L callbacks that didn't seal the deal but were able to auto callback at firms coming to oci before oci started).

is this really not conventional wisdom?

This is anon that was asking cookie the mass mail questions. I mass mailed pretty much every major Chicago firm for 1L SAs. For the ones that didn't have spots, rejected me after screener and rejected after callback, many of them said "keep in touch as OCI approaches" etc. is this an invitation to email them my resume, like, now?

If you mean just emailing your resume/transcript to recruiting, no don't do that. That's not really "keeping in touch." The CSO used to have a rule against cold applying to firms coming to OCI (just sending your stuff to recruiting and not to an attorney you've talked to who offers to send it along for you), not sure if its still in effect. If they're inclined to give you a pre-OCI CB based on your 1L contact then they will email you. You should focus your efforts on networking and getting your materials sent to recruiting organically. Much more likely to have positive results that way. I think it's a bad look to just cold apply through recruiting when the firm is coming to OCI and you should have been networking with their attorneys all of your 1L year. There's a bunch of events this summer and you should be going to all of them and trying to do informational interviews to network.

The one major exception is applying for diversity scholarships/positions. If you're diverse, you should apply to all of those as soon as they open (and consistently check firm websites to see if they're accepting applications).

[onionz]

frankly you should leave those spots (at firms like Baker & McKenize and Katten) to classmates who aren't as competitive since you're likely to get an offer at a K&E/Sidley/Latham/Skadden. If you're splitting Chicago and another market, it gets a little more complicated and might be a good idea to post your whole bid list.

Not sure how I feel about this advice. Granted, I did not bid Chi, but I know it was more competitive than people thought my year and I know many 3.8s who did not get offers with KE/Sidley in Chi, though I know less about Latham etc. Also, and this sounds super harsh, but the idea of leaving spots to classmates does not seem like sound advice. I mean, I wouldn't fill my bidlist with tons of safeties I have no interest in going but 1) until you have an offer, even with a 3.8 be motivated and 2) you never know what firm you might like more than you suspect. There's no rule that as a 3.8 you have to go to a certain firm.

As for the original Q about listing them 7 or 8, it sorta depends again on what your class does. They fluctuate a few spots and I know people who had them in that area who did not get them.

[cookiejar1]

Getting some push back on what I said earlier in this thread which I believe is fair. The conservative, consensus approach is to rely on OCI and not mass mail interviewers who you know that you can bid on right now for OCI. The advice given by an anonymous poster in another thread is consistent with this approach and should at least be strongly considered by all:

I think pretty much all firms (with decent sized classes) will give pre-OCI offers (caveat being when your OCI is). Some of these offers are to formal legal assistants or others with a prior relationship with the firm. That wasn't the case for me.

My experience was that after bidding, I emailed all of the firms that I bid on but did not get interviews with basically saying "Hey my name is X, I'm a X at school X. I'd really like the opprotunity to interview with your firm, but unfortunately did not get an interview through my school's bidding process, etc." and attach a cover letter and resume.

Some firms ignored these, some firms said to drop by the hospitality suites so I basically chalked these up as losses. Other firms though actually tried to schedule interviews during OCI, so I got extra screeners this way.

The real wins are the places that will give you a phone screener and then just invite you straight in for callbacks. This happen with two firms for me, both of which I got offers from pre-OCI (V20, V30).

Stats at the time were lower T14, top 15%, LR. Consider myself a decent interviewer.

Without trying to sound like an asshole, I've now heard from many people that firms are moving quicker and quicker to try to lock up "top" candidates before other firms. I ultimately didn't accept either of my pre-OCI offers and am now at a V5.

Obligatory rankings are largely meaningless disclaimer (EXCEPT FOR NY TO 180K!!!!).

With that being said, I do strongly believe that the recruiting market is changing and that we are seeing more and more pre-OCI interviews and offers these days which justifies e-mailing firms right now. A lot of this is driven by diversity recruiting and other off campus career fairs (such as OTIP) and I think legal recruiting is adapting to this more dynamic environment. As such, I do believe that a critical mass of legal recruiting teams (at least in NYC) are more receptive to cold "resume drops" than ever before and are using this as an opportunity to schedule call backs with applicants along side the other candidates (from career fairs, etc) interviewing early with their firms. Itbdvorm, a V15 Partner and OCI interviewer, is also of this general opinion and I've found his/her advice to be consistently spot on over the years http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0#p9400754. In any case, exercise your best judgment here. I tend to be a bit more aggressive than most.

On the topic of where to bid KE/Sidley with top grades . . . the reason why I'm such a big fan of a pre-OCI offer is that it really allows you to really get after it during OCI. Without any offers, then yeah, you're going to want to schedule interviews with every major Chicago firm to ensure that at least one bites (notwithstanding how high that likelihood is). With an offer already in hand you can afford to be more picky and ensure that you will, no matter what, interview with KE/Sidley as they sit prominently on your bid list as #1 and #2 (or #2 and #1 for that matter).

I think it's a good idea to generally be self-interested throughout this process. This your career we're talking about and you need to do what's necessary to ensure that you have the best opportunities available to you. Now, with all that being said it's important to remember that you can only accept one offer after your 2L summer. That's it. Just one. If you're a highly competitive candidate then don't get caught up in collecting as many offers as you can in as many markets as you can. Focus on what you want and what firm can give you want you want. In the long run this will be better for you and, as a bonus, might help your other classmates who are desperately waiting for that call back call from their dream firm that you are only tangentially interested in.

[Anonymous User]

What firms in NYC and Chicago are known for giving pre-OCI callbacks?

[GoCats56]

PSA: if you're interested in appellate work and have serious (i.e. circuit clerkship) grades, feel free to PM me for advice on firms and playing that interest in interviews.

[GoCats56]

A couple questions. Thanks!

- How will I fare for Chicago litigation firms at OCI? I'm 3.89, am only interested in litigation, and am pretty much only gonna bid Chicago, because I don't really want to work anywhere else. I have legitimate Chicago ties, have "prestigious" work experience, and am good at interviewing and not being weird. I'm not a (complete) idiot so I have TX as my backup market (ties to TX as well) and will mass mail to the secondary market where I grew up.

- What should/can I do to effectively network with Chicago firms? "Informational" phone calls? Unfortunately I'm not in Chicago this summer to network, and won't be back until the day before OCI starts. I'll network in the major market I'm at and try to secure callbacks with non-Chicago firms out here as a backup, but unfortunately I just can't get back to Chicago this summer. If it helps I went to about seventy bajillion law firm receptions and met a large amount of attorneys in the spring and wrote all their names and identifying info down. Was planning on using this a bit for OCI.

- Which litigation shops should be at the top of my list? Right now it's Bartlit Beck, Jenner Block, Kirkland Ellis, Sidley Austin, Winston Strawn, and Jones Day. Really just following Chambers here. I'm more concerned with getting good litigation experience than Vault ranking. I also would like to work for the least sweat-shoppy firm as possible.

- I imagine the words "appellate litigation" shouldn't be discussed with firms at OCI?

- Any other super general advice for my situation?

Thoughts presented as they come to me:

1) For Chicago litigation, almost nothing is a safe bet. Your 3.89 is not a safe bet. I would strongly advise you to bid NYC as well. That said, you'll probably be fine.

2) Chicago is not a serious market for appellate work. It's just not. Mayer Brown, IMHO, is the only firm that has a serious appellate group *in its Chicago office.* Sidley, Jenner, Winston, and Kirkland all have real appellate groups, but in their DC offices. Sidley has a tiny contingent in Chicago, but it's supremely unlikely you'd get to work in it. I know a recent alum with---frankly---much stronger credentials that you have who has not been able to break into that group. If you want to do appeals, the bottom line is that you should go for DC. Even then, playing it in an interview can be a little delicate, and DC is also a tough market to break into generally. Feel free to PM me for more. The very bottom line though: don't mention appellate work in an interview with any Chicago office except Mayer Brown. Even then, exercise caution.

3) As somebody else mentioned, Bartlit Beck does not have a summer program. But to go even further: Bartlit Beck is an insanely difficult place to get hired. Your grades have probably already disqualified you, but in any case, they pretty much only hire post-clerkship, so no need to worry about it for the next few years.

4) Definitely look at Barrack Ferrazzano---I really, really liked them when I was networking around Chicago, and the two Northwestern people who are summering there this year are awesome.

5) Definitely bid Schiff (although they are having some real partner departure issues right now, but worry about that once you have an offer, people really seem to like litigating there), Eimer Stahl (your grades might be borderline for them if I'm remembering the stats right, but you can pick them up low), Latham, Skadden, Mayer Brown, and McDermott.

[Anonymous User]

Callback at a DC V10 via massmail. So, I guess it works.

[Kinky John]

Callback at a DC V10 via massmail. So, I guess it works.

Are we supposed to be impressed by this?

[Anonymous User]

Callback at a DC V10 via massmail. So, I guess it works.

Are we supposed to be impressed by this?

Anon. No. I sounded like a douche. Let me start over. Massmail now because it can work.

[Kinky John]

Callback at a DC V10 via massmail. So, I guess it works.

Are we supposed to be impressed by this?

Anon. No. I sounded like a douche. Let me start over. Massmail now because it can work.

Thanks

[cookiejar1]

What firms in NYC and Chicago are known for giving pre-OCI callbacks?

Looks like some colleagues at some other top schools are putting together a list here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=265703

[Anonymous User]

*

[ghostoftraynor]

Callback at a DC V10 via massmail. So, I guess it works.

Are we supposed to be impressed by this?

No. No V10 has a decent office in DC, so you might as well brag about getting a callback at one of DLA's multiple Baltimore offices. However, I think he/she is saying massmail now, which is probably unnecessary, but could be helpful depending on market. For those of you reading this who haven't done much, don't worry, just focus on those bidlist. And go to every reception firms have, even if its at Harry's.

[cookiejar1]

What should we write in the mass mailing to firms pre-OCI? Is there a sample email that anyone can post here?

4.0+ here, bidding on DC firms (and maybe a few NYC as safeties) b/c I want to be in a government relations practice group. Will also bid Miami (and a few NYC firms for safety).

Generic cover letter is fine and a few sentences are sufficient.

I am a rising second-year student at Northwestern PRITZKER School of Law + [FUN FACTS about yourself]. I am interested in applying to FIRM X's 2017 summer associate program because of X, Y, Z. Before law school, [I did some cool things that are vaguely related to X, Y, Z]. Please find my resume and unofficial transcript enclosed. THANK.

Remember that you can get the contact information you need from the NALP directory (http://www.nalpdirectory.com/). Send your stuff to the designated recruiting contact. It'll also show whether someone is a Mr./Ms. for the ambiguous names – HUGE LIFESAVER.