Are TLSers Whiney? Forum

[totesTheGoat]

Thanks, that's as close as I need.

Hopefully without pissing off half the forum, I'll say that one's UG major may have a significant impact on their view of the difficulty of law school. Coming from an engineering background, I've found law to be a bit less rigorous than engineering classes and a bit less subjective than humanities classes. I could imagine that somebody who was used to subjective and less rigorous classes in UG would have a much harder time than somebody who was used to more rigorous classes.

[Tls2016]

Thanks, that's as close as I need.

Hopefully without pissing off half the forum, I'll say that one's UG major may have a significant impact on their view of the difficulty of law school. Coming from an engineering background, I've found law to be a bit less rigorous than engineering classes and a bit less subjective than humanities classes. I could imagine that somebody who was used to subjective and less rigorous classes in UG would have a much harder time than somebody who was used to more rigorous classes.

Truly I missed all the posts saying that law school was so tough. Guess that is within the student forums somewhere.

[Tiago Splitter]

Thanks, that's as close as I need.

Hopefully without pissing off half the forum, I'll say that one's UG major may have a significant impact on their view of the difficulty of law school. Coming from an engineering background, I've found law to be a bit less rigorous than engineering classes and a bit less subjective than humanities classes. I could imagine that somebody who was used to subjective and less rigorous classes in UG would have a much harder time than somebody who was used to more rigorous classes.

Truly I missed all the posts saying that law school was so tough. Guess that is within the student forums somewhere.

Scott Turow said it in 1L which was published about 35 years ago. I think most who have gone through the process agree that book was overstated but that's the picture non-lawyers have in their head of law school.

[PMan99]

Law school is not bad because the material is difficult (it isn't), it sucks because you're surrounded by law students and law professors, many of whom are just not pleasant people.

Also, everyone I know was an anxiety ridden wreck for the first part of 1L, even if they turned out normal down the road.

[jrass]

To put it in perspective, for every one who said they did well in law school with little effort, somebody must have done poorly. It is zero sum. Intelligence isn't all that useful in big law. Organization, effort, focus, etc. are more useful than being smart. Honestly, having a good golf stroke or understanding of nutrition is probably more important than any of the skills useful in law school. A class in excel, etiquette and matching clothing probably carries more weight than your 200k education, and you can get all 3 for like $49.99 on groupon. 3 years out the only thing you will know about Judge Cardozo is you throw out all the resumes with his name on them.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks, that's as close as I need.

Hopefully without pissing off half the forum, I'll say that one's UG major may have a significant impact on their view of the difficulty of law school. Coming from an engineering background, I've found law to be a bit less rigorous than engineering classes and a bit less subjective than humanities classes. I could imagine that somebody who was used to subjective and less rigorous classes in UG would have a much harder time than somebody who was used to more rigorous classes.

Law school isn't "hard" but I do think that graduating order of the coif at a T-14 is pretty impressive. Graduating with honors (top 1/3 or whatever) isn't that hard to do even if you don't do much work.

My friends who went to say MIT and studied physics/math found law school to be a joke, and while they graduated with honors, they weren't Order of the Coif. Some people just do law school very well (or they put in an insane amount of time compared to others).

[ticklemesilly]

Thanks, that's as close as I need.

Hopefully without pissing off half the forum, I'll say that one's UG major may have a significant impact on their view of the difficulty of law school. Coming from an engineering background, I've found law to be a bit less rigorous than engineering classes and a bit less subjective than humanities classes. I could imagine that somebody who was used to subjective and less rigorous classes in UG would have a much harder time than somebody who was used to more rigorous classes.

Law school isn't "hard" but I do think that graduating order of the coif at a T-14 is pretty impressive. Graduating with honors (top 1/3 or whatever) isn't that hard to do even if you don't do much work.

My friends who went to say MIT and studied physics/math found law school to be a joke, and while they graduated with honors, they weren't Order of the Coif. Some people just do law school very well (or they put in an insane amount of time compared to others).

Why would anyone at a school like MIT who studied math or physics come to law school? My major definitely had math elements, but I was not even remotely in the same position as an MIT graduate in those fields.

Also, out of curiosity, what law school (or tier)?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks, that's as close as I need.

Hopefully without pissing off half the forum, I'll say that one's UG major may have a significant impact on their view of the difficulty of law school. Coming from an engineering background, I've found law to be a bit less rigorous than engineering classes and a bit less subjective than humanities classes. I could imagine that somebody who was used to subjective and less rigorous classes in UG would have a much harder time than somebody who was used to more rigorous classes.

Law school isn't "hard" but I do think that graduating order of the coif at a T-14 is pretty impressive. Graduating with honors (top 1/3 or whatever) isn't that hard to do even if you don't do much work.

My friends who went to say MIT and studied physics/math found law school to be a joke, and while they graduated with honors, they weren't Order of the Coif. Some people just do law school very well (or they put in an insane amount of time compared to others).

Why would anyone at a school like MIT who studied math or physics come to law school? My major definitely had math elements, but I was not even remotely in the same position as an MIT graduate in those fields.

Also, out of curiosity, what law school (or tier)?

Bottom half of T-14. I had a few MIT/Caltech grads in my class or guys who went to other top engineering programs then worked for Google, etc., either math/physics/engineering majors. Usually they worked a few years in engineering/IT and decided they didn't like it, so not knowing what else to do, they end up going to law school. Most are not in biglaw now though (left early or didn't do it period). Most of them (or all) didn't have any loans either - either paid themselves with money they saved up while in their first career, or they had rich parents.

[Anonymous User]

Different anon than above.

Disclaimer: 1L.

Yes TLS users are whiny (about law school, can't speak to firms). Law school isn't that bad. There are insufferable people, but you don't have to hang out with them and they are going to be everywhere (almost) no matter what career or school you do. I just hang out with people I like and ignore the haters. Maybe I'm just missing all the miserable people, but 1st semester everyone seemed pretty cool (with understandable stress increases leading up to exams). I did notice some peoples' spirits crushed after 1L fall grades came out, some peoples' moods have been noticeably different, and some annoying people now shut up in class.

Law school is not conceptually difficult at all. It's mostly using common sense and basic logic (of which we are all pretty much at the same level), being methodical about how you solve a problem (in the way the professor demonstrates/prefers), and your ability to quickly organize, sort, and type out formulaic analyses in punchy sentences. I am 100% sure that I'm not the smartest in my section (fine arts major, not very rigorous undergrad curriculum), but I got good grades first semester (~top 5% at HLS) because I took a fuck ton of practice exams and practice hypotheticals throughout the semester (rather than starting in December), went to office hours a few times to figure out my professors' quirks in each substantive area/policy preferences, and practiced typing out clear rule statements at my max typing speed (for the classes that had timed exams). Once you get the hang of how to write a law school exam it's really just a one trick pony. I think Desert Fox wrote this somewhere (sorry if I'm mis-crediting) that I read when I was starting 1L--it's more like speed math than calculus. That really helped me focus on the speed and efficiency stuff in prepping for exams rather than trying to worry about all the minutiae when it didn't matter.

I don't find my success all that impressive, tbh. There is a formula to this stuff and it's fairly easy to figure out online, in books, and from older students in a short amount of time; not really any creativity or special sauce required from what I can tell. I think a lot of really smart people don't do well 1st year because they spend time reading (in detail instead of just skimming or looking at an online case brief), briefing cases (stupid), and doing extra shit when all that really matters is practicing hypotheticals. A lot of those people complain when their grades come back sucky after doing all that useless busy work--I'm shocked that they are surprised.

It seems like from what some of the older posters are saying that big law is the same kind of thing. Just be organized, diligent, realize that you aren't doing anything glamorous, and put your head down and work efficiently and well. Honestly, I'm not sure why people would go into this career expecting to enjoy it after doing even a little internet searching about the profession; it's a job. I'll admit though that I'm not used to working the kind of hours that biglaw people regularly put in (even the non-exaggerated version), and it is going to be a major adjustment. But, thanks to the complainers on here, I'm not really expecting it to be any better than boring to borderline palatable.

[zot1]

Different anon than above.

Disclaimer: 1L.

Yes TLS users are whiny (about law school, can't speak to firms). Law school isn't that bad. There are insufferable people, but you don't have to hang out with them and they are going to be everywhere (almost) no matter what career or school you do. I just hang out with people I like and ignore the haters. Maybe I'm just missing all the miserable people, but 1st semester everyone seemed pretty cool (with understandable stress increases leading up to exams). I did notice some peoples' spirits crushed after 1L fall grades came out, some peoples' moods have been noticeably different, and some annoying people now shut up in class.

Law school is not conceptually difficult at all. It's mostly using common sense and basic logic (of which we are all pretty much at the same level), being methodical about how you solve a problem (in the way the professor demonstrates/prefers), and your ability to quickly organize, sort, and type out formulaic analyses in punchy sentences. I am 100% sure that I'm not the smartest in my section (fine arts major, not very rigorous undergrad curriculum), but I got good grades first semester (~top 5% at HLS) because I took a fuck ton of practice exams and practice hypotheticals throughout the semester (rather than starting in December), went to office hours a few times to figure out my professors' quirks in each substantive area/policy preferences, and practiced typing out clear rule statements at my max typing speed (for the classes that had timed exams). Once you get the hang of how to write a law school exam it's really just a one trick pony. I think Desert Fox wrote this somewhere (sorry if I'm mis-crediting) that I read when I was starting 1L--it's more like speed math than calculus. That really helped me focus on the speed and efficiency stuff in prepping for exams rather than trying to worry about all the minutiae when it didn't matter.

I don't find my success all that impressive, tbh. There is a formula to this stuff and it's fairly easy to figure out online, in books, and from older students in a short amount of time; not really any creativity or special sauce required from what I can tell. I think a lot of really smart people don't do well 1st year because they spend time reading (in detail instead of just skimming or looking at an online case brief), briefing cases (stupid), and doing extra shit when all that really matters is practicing hypotheticals. A lot of those people complain when their grades come back sucky after doing all that useless busy work--I'm shocked that they are surprised.

It seems like from what some of the older posters are saying that big law is the same kind of thing. Just be organized, diligent, realize that you aren't doing anything glamorous, and put your head down and work efficiently and well. Honestly, I'm not sure why people would go into this career expecting to enjoy it after doing even a little internet searching about the profession; it's a job. I'll admit though that I'm not used to working the kind of hours that biglaw people regularly put in (even the non-exaggerated version), and it is going to be a major adjustment. But, thanks to the complainers on here, I'm not really expecting it to be any better than boring to borderline palatable.

[PMan99]

Different anon than above.

Disclaimer: 1L.

Yes TLS users are whiny (about law school, can't speak to firms). Law school isn't that bad. There are insufferable people, but you don't have to hang out with them and they are going to be everywhere (almost) no matter what career or school you do. I just hang out with people I like and ignore the haters. Maybe I'm just missing all the miserable people, but 1st semester everyone seemed pretty cool (with understandable stress increases leading up to exams). I did notice some peoples' spirits crushed after 1L fall grades came out, some peoples' moods have been noticeably different, and some annoying people now shut up in class.

Law school is not conceptually difficult at all. It's mostly using common sense and basic logic (of which we are all pretty much at the same level), being methodical about how you solve a problem (in the way the professor demonstrates/prefers), and your ability to quickly organize, sort, and type out formulaic analyses in punchy sentences. I am 100% sure that I'm not the smartest in my section (fine arts major, not very rigorous undergrad curriculum), but I got good grades first semester (~top 5% at HLS) because I took a fuck ton of practice exams and practice hypotheticals throughout the semester (rather than starting in December), went to office hours a few times to figure out my professors' quirks in each substantive area/policy preferences, and practiced typing out clear rule statements at my max typing speed (for the classes that had timed exams). Once you get the hang of how to write a law school exam it's really just a one trick pony. I think Desert Fox wrote this somewhere (sorry if I'm mis-crediting) that I read when I was starting 1L--it's more like speed math than calculus. That really helped me focus on the speed and efficiency stuff in prepping for exams rather than trying to worry about all the minutiae when it didn't matter.

I don't find my success all that impressive, tbh. There is a formula to this stuff and it's fairly easy to figure out online, in books, and from older students in a short amount of time; not really any creativity or special sauce required from what I can tell. I think a lot of really smart people don't do well 1st year because they spend time reading (in detail instead of just skimming or looking at an online case brief), briefing cases (stupid), and doing extra shit when all that really matters is practicing hypotheticals. A lot of those people complain when their grades come back sucky after doing all that useless busy work--I'm shocked that they are surprised.

It seems like from what some of the older posters are saying that big law is the same kind of thing. Just be organized, diligent, realize that you aren't doing anything glamorous, and put your head down and work efficiently and well. Honestly, I'm not sure why people would go into this career expecting to enjoy it after doing even a little internet searching about the profession; it's a job. I'll admit though that I'm not used to working the kind of hours that biglaw people regularly put in (even the non-exaggerated version), and it is going to be a major adjustment. But, thanks to the complainers on here, I'm not really expecting it to be any better than boring to borderline palatable.

Biglaw is like that except imagine the most insufferable let everyone know how much you study people all got the Sears prize.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw isn't anything like law school, fwiw.......some people who did really well in law school do well in biglaw, but not all. Many of the best biglaw attorneys I've known have been order of the coif at lower tier schools (not in the top 20 or even 50) and some of the worst at my firm are CCN grads.

It's completely different - it's about having hyper attention detail, being organized, doing a lot of administrative/paralegal type work at least as a junior in transactional, patience and tolerance for a lot of mundane crap. I dunno - but I didn't pay much attention in law school or do much of the reading or do much organizing either.

[Anonymous User]

TLS is mostly a forum of woe. Not sure whether that is a product of 1) the nature of lawyers, 2) the fact that human nature finds solice in shared misery, 3) most of the posters being juniors or midlevels and that very few people love their jobs early on b/c being at the bottom of the totem pole almost always blows, regardless of what you're doing, 4) that law as a profession just blows, 5) that younger the generation is more entitled and more sensitive, or 6) other.

I wish more existing partners or senior lawyers would pitch in. Most attorneys at senior levels that I talk to love their jobs. Que the chorus that wails that the only people that enjoy law are miserable people and that making partner is a pipe dream.

[BigZuck]

TLS is mostly a forum of woe. Not sure whether that is a product of 1) the nature of lawyers, 2) the fact that human nature finds solice in shared misery, 3) most of the posters being juniors or midlevels and that very few people love their jobs early on b/c being at the bottom of the totem pole almost always blows, regardless of what you're doing, 4) that law as a profession just blows, 5) that younger the generation is more entitled and more sensitive, or 6) other.

I wish more existing partners or senior lawyers would pitch in. Most attorneys at senior levels that I talk to love their jobs. Que the chorus that wails that the only people that enjoy law are miserable people and that making partner is a pipe dream.

If partners/senior associates pitched in and universally said how dope big law was that wouldn't necessarily mean that big law isn't the least dope thing in existence

Do you understand how that could be?

Eta: I mean, call it a chorus if you want, I don't have a dog in this fight but I'm not sure that would be good evidence that TLSers are whiny

[Anonymous User]

TLS is mostly a forum of woe. Not sure whether that is a product of 1) the nature of lawyers, 2) the fact that human nature finds solice in shared misery, 3) most of the posters being juniors or midlevels and that very few people love their jobs early on b/c being at the bottom of the totem pole almost always blows, regardless of what you're doing, 4) that law as a profession just blows, 5) that younger the generation is more entitled and more sensitive, or 6) other.

I wish more existing partners or senior lawyers would pitch in. Most attorneys at senior levels that I talk to love their jobs. Que the chorus that wails that the only people that enjoy law are miserable people and that making partner is a pipe dream.

If partners/senior associates pitched in and universally said how dope big law was that wouldn't necessarily mean that big law isn't the least dope thing in existence

Do you understand how that could be?

Eta: I mean, call it a chorus if you want, I don't have a dog in this fight but I'm not sure that would be good evidence that TLSers are whiny

Of course I understand that. My comment about wishing for more senior lawyer input was more anecdotal. That said, (presuming senior lawyer feedback was more positive) it might still be weak support for the proposition that TLS generally represents a faction of lawyers that love to bemoan their decision to enter law and is not necessarily representative of the profession as a whole (aka that TLSers are whiny).

[jkpolk]

Not whiny. Labor vs. capital. If you're an associate, you're labor and you should agitate as much as possible.