For Austin - 1L MoFo, Skadden, Davis Polk, Fenwick vs. Austin Forum

[Anonymous User]

The question is whether, statistically speaking, someone without ties (Austin and/or TX, because apparently that distinction matters now) should exclusively or primarily target Austin for 1L or 2L OCI.

That answer is still no, whether the reason is ties, "fit," or simply the fact that Austin has a small legal market.

People who win lotteries shouldn't explain to other people how easy it is to make money.

Since when does one "exclusively or primarily" target a single market? If that was OP's inherent question, then the answer is and would always be no. But that would be the case if the question was whether OP should "exclusively or primarily" target Chicago or DC or even NY for that matter.

However, is Austin attainable, even without ties? The answer is yes, especially if the OP already has an opportunity to spend a summer there anyways.

[Anonymous User]

I'd be curious for other 'Austinians' to comment but here's my brief take on Austin:

1) Unlike what some may have muttered in this thread, I think Austin is not only a unique city, it has a unique legal market that itself seemingly seeks to remain insular.

2) I have found that, with Ausin, the focus is not necessarily on grades. As some have already revealed here, firms there turn down people with excellent grades frequently. However, I also know of some firms that only take students with outstanding grades. But from my experience, that is not necessarily the driving forcing of the Austin Lawyer.

3) The Austin lawyer tends to embody and epitomize Austin, imo. Firms there use grades as a baseline for competency but they look at fit stronger there than in other markets. However, their version of fit is different. In most other legal markets, fit refers almost strictly to the firm itself or even more specifically to a practice group in the firm. Certainly, I think firms in Austin are looking for that. However, firms there want a natural fit with the city. Austin is proud to be 'weird' and its lawyers are also proud to be 'weird.' I've never encountered that in another market (maybe SF, for people who live there?). They seem to seek lawyers who have those natural quirkiness that people have come to know Austin for. Furthermore, unlike even other legal markets in Texas, I found Austin Lawyers to be much more laid back, not only in their personalities but also how they dress and how they carry on at work. Lawyers there seem to be expected to be sociable, fun, easy-going, and different. And they tend to want to keep it that way.

4) Therefore, it seems like it would be easy for a typical law student fresh off a semester or year where all they focused on was grades to struggle finding work Austin. It's also easy to see why uptight young professionals beat their heads against a wall trying to land a gig there. Ironically, I met plenty of lawyers there who didn't do so well in school or go a T14 working Austin. They weren't/didn't get jobs in bigger legal markets but the fit right in in Austin.

5) Give Austin a shot. Be yourself and don't sell yourself short. Who knows, it may be a much easier deal for you (not just the op, but anyone) than other markets.

As someone who grew up in Austin and went to UT, can confirm that this is accurate. It's just different here, give it a shot, if it doesn't work out go to D/H for a few years then lateral in. When you look at the big TX markets, you think Houston and Dallas being big time oil and gas focused, and Austin has some of that, but nowhere near the other markets. In Austin, you aim to find your legal niche and thrive in it.

This has not been said enough. I went to UT in UG, T14 for LS and had offers in Austin at multiple places (I also worked in Austin for years before law school). I chose to go to Houston/Dallas because, while ending up in Austin would be nice, I wanted a bigger corporate experience starting out. I know an associate or partner at most Austin offices and they all suggested I take a big TX offer over that of Skadden/DPW when I was deciding. If you have no texas ties, it will be hard to move from NY to Austin. They would prob prefer the TX Big3 associate from D/H. Maybe they didn't know what they were talking about, but multiple people from my office have lateralled to Austin since I started. If that is your goal I would look at the Big 3/Latham in Houston and Big3/GDC in Dallas.

[BigZuck]

The question is whether, statistically speaking, someone without ties (Austin and/or TX, because apparently that distinction matters now) should exclusively or primarily target Austin for 1L or 2L OCI.

That answer is still no, whether the reason is ties, "fit," or simply the fact that Austin has a small legal market.

People who win lotteries shouldn't explain to other people how easy it is to make money.

Right

If the OP has to fit into a certain type of "fit" (and possibly a certain GPA bracket) and/or the OP has to pay his dues at another firm that does similar corporate work for a couple years after he graduates then given what (little) we know about the OP I stand by my statement that this is going to be a really tough nut to crack. Just as a numbers game alone, it's going to be a tough nut to crack. Focus on the backup plans, get the "more sure" stuff shored up, and then if he wants to give it a shot, go for it. The main question posed by the OP was how he should act now/in the relatively immediate future. He should get a freaking job lined up and not put all his eggs in this basket. T14ers who want a job in places like DC or SF should keep NYC in the mix as a backup. That applies infinitely more so if you want to take a swing at a place like Austin.

I think what Old Gregg and others were saying was good and helpful for people with a genuine interest in/reason for being in Austin long term. That said, it can be pretty tough to project and plan for that stuff so many years down the line and that's why I was saying what I thought the OP should focus on in the short term (1L summer and OCI).

I think it's good and helpful to hear from Austin associates ITT (especially when they are actively trying to be helpful instead of whatever Goose was trying to accomplish). It's nice to hear that the Austin market is doing so well. That pretty much goes against a lot of what I have read on TLS about the market, and my friend's experiences in the job hunt, and what I've heard from practicing lawyers in the market (just last week a big law partner told me that one of the corporate groups mentioned ITT was really struggling but like I said, who knows what his motivation was with that). It's good to hear that none of that stuff is true, and I appreciate that we can get insider info.

So yeah, go for it OP. But be smart about it, don't do the 1L summer PI thing.

[Anonymous User]

So I'll give my own personal anecdote of this as I graduated from UT, and I'll supplement it with some actual numbers. TLDR of this: will OP be likely to get a 2L/3L oci gig in Austin? Plausible but highly unlikely. He has much better shot at waiting a few years, doing corp work with focus on VC/tech and then lateraling in.

(below discussion is in reference to 2L/3L OCI Hiring)

1) Biglaw Market in Austin is REALLY SMALL.

Austin population is booming, but that doesn't mean that the amount of biglaw jobs available is also increasing. So on either coast you'll find biglaw summer classes in the 15+ range everywhere you look. Let's take a look at some of the biggest firms and how their Austin 2L summer classes look (this is via NALP).Baker Botts = 7 Austin vs. 26 Houston. Norton Rose Fulbright = 6 Austin vs. 27 Houston. V&E = 3 Austin vs. 30 in Houston. , Andrews Kurth = 3 Austin vs. 27 Houston. WSGR = 3 Austin vs. 29 Palo Alto, K&L Gates = 0 Austin. Bracewell = 0 Astin. Locke Lord = 0 Austin (although 4 1Ls). (obviously some firms are not on here).

Here's the other thing you have to remember about these already small classes. Several of these SA positions are IP ONLY. WSGR does a ton of patent prosecution work for example out of their Austin office, Same with Baker Botts. Of the small handful of people I know from UT who got Austin biglaw SAs, almost all of them were IP kids. EDIT: I'll correct this line a bit. There were definitely kids who weren't IP get Austin jobs, but on the whole if you were IP --> much easier time finding Austin work.

There were plenty of smaller firms that hired kids here, but that was how the traditional "biglaw" hiring in Austin went from how I could see it. Lots of these "smaller" firms were pretty prestigious too (Scott Douglass McConnico etc), but class sizes are real small and they are incredibly picky about who they take.

So on a numbers game alone, people who bid Austin exclusively/primarily are at a huge disadvantage

2) Austin Ties vs. Texas Ties

Austin Ties are Not that important. Dallas/Houston care much more about city ties than Austin does. 9/10 of the people in Austin are transplants and get why people want to move there. With that said, TEXAS ties are important. People love this state, so it definitely helps to have some connection to the state itself, if not Austin. I was a transplant to Texas as a whole, and I got drilled a LOT about why I wanted to move to Texas, even as a UT grad.

3) Austin itself

I love Austin, everyone loves Austin, it's a great place. With that said, it's not THAT amazing. You have amazing food/nightlife scene, new things to do all the time, great weather, young/active residents. You also have really bad traffic, no good museums (compared to ones on coast), skyrocketing COL (especially compared to the much cheaper Dallas/Houston TX cities. You're paycheck will go farther than NY/SF, but it won't go that much farther), no sports team besides UT, invasion of hippies/homeless every year during ACL and SXSW, etc. This applies to every city, hence why people get suspicious when moving without ties because it you might end up not actually like "living" here as opposed to just "visiting" for a few days.



So most important part for OP? Under absolutely no circumstances should OP ever take an Austin nonprofit gig over a PAID (fabulously paid) 1L summer gig with any of these firms above (EDIT: one's OP mentioned). Take the 1L summer gig, make it into a 2L summer gig (hey you just got to avoid all the hassle of 2L OCI process and can watch your friends freak out), get some experience in VC/tech and try to lateral. If you still feel like moving to Austin after a few years it will still be here. Why risk striking out and scrambling to find something vs comfortably moving in like 5 years?

[wolfie_m.]

.

[Abbie Doobie]

So I'll give my own personal anecdote of this as I graduated from UT, and I'll supplement it with some actual numbers. TLDR of this: will OP be likely to get a 2L/3L oci gig in Austin? Plausible but highly unlikely. He has much better shot at waiting a few years, doing corp work with focus on VC/tech and then lateraling in.

can you pm me anon?

[Anonymous User]

1) Biglaw Market in Austin is REALLY SMALL.

Austin population is booming, but that doesn't mean that the amount of biglaw jobs available is also increasing. So on either coast you'll find biglaw summer classes in the 15+ range everywhere you look. Let's take a look at some of the biggest firms and how their Austin 2L summer classes look (this is via NALP).Baker Botts = 7 Austin vs. 26 Houston. Norton Rose Fulbright = 6 Austin vs. 27 Houston. V&E = 3 Austin vs. 30 in Houston. , Andrews Kurth = 3 Austin vs. 27 Houston. WSGR = 3 Austin vs. 29 Palo Alto, K&L Gates = 0 Austin. Bracewell = 0 Astin. Locke Lord = 0 Austin (although 4 1Ls). (obviously some firms are not on here).

Agreed with most of what anon says (though I think there has to be some push back when complaining about Austin's COL and traffic in comparison to the coasts). I just wanted to point out a few decent sized-firms that were missed. Greenberg Traurig has a couple SAs most years. Jackson Walker had 4 in 2014. mckool smith had something like 7-8 in 2015. And Winstead lists 10 on NALP (though I have a feeling that's firm-wide and not just in Austin). A few of these firms might not be considered traditional "biglaw" but I'm pretty sure they all at least start at (or even above) NYC market. So there's a few more potential spots for ya, OP.

[Anonymous User]

Agreed with most of what anon says (though I think there has to be some push back when complaining about Austin's COL and traffic in comparison to the coasts). I just wanted to point out a few decent sized-firms that were missed. Greenberg Traurig has a couple SAs most years. Jackson Walker had 4 in 2014. McKool Smith had something like 7-8 in 2015. And Winstead lists 10 on NALP (though I have a feeling that's firm-wide and not just in Austin). A few of these firms might not be considered traditional "biglaw" but I'm pretty sure they all at least start at (or even above) NYC market. So there's a few more potential spots for ya, OP.

Anon Above: Yep Forgot about Winstead /JW/Greenberg. That will probably net you another ~6-8 spots. OP mentioned though that he wanted to do corporate work. McKool is litigation shop (primarily IP lit too). Still helpful for anyone else interested, just maybe not in OP's case.

[Lalabatman]

I do think it's kind of funny that this pent-up Austin midlevel rage has been spilt in the name of lalabatman, a "T8" 1L with "God Bless America" in his sig line. I think this whole thing is really useful for people genuinely interested in the Austin market long term but I suspect this OP is a Berkeley bro more interested in making a chill AF 160K and noming on Franklins than someone with a compelling reason for wanting to do the type of work that Austin firms do.

Again though, I could be totally wrong about that.

Noming on Franklins is like 70% of my criteria. The other 30% is providing a stable future for my family in a decent city -- but the noms are most of it. =p

[robotrick]

People who win lotteries shouldn't explain to other people how easy it is to make money.

isn't this exactly what OP is looking for, though? i.e., how best to break into this market? it seems to me that there's been some decent advice and encouragement from folks who were successful in doing just that.

It's more like OP is asking whether he should invest heavily in lottery tickets. And then people who bought a ticket and won are saying it's easy to win.

By any objective measure, Austin is a small legal market with a demand for jobs that outstrips supply. This thread is like asking about trying to get a firm gig in SF and 3 people who work in SF saying "don't worry, anyone can get a job here."

[robotrick]

So I'll give my own personal anecdote of this as I graduated from UT, and I'll supplement it with some actual numbers. TLDR of this: will OP be likely to get a 2L/3L oci gig in Austin? Plausible but highly unlikely. He has much better shot at waiting a few years, doing corp work with focus on VC/tech and then lateraling in.

...

Austin population is booming, but that doesn't mean that the amount of biglaw jobs available is also increasing. So on either coast you'll find biglaw summer classes in the 15+ range everywhere you look. Let's take a look at some of the biggest firms and how their Austin 2L summer classes look (this is via NALP).Baker Botts = 7 Austin vs. 26 Houston. Norton Rose Fulbright = 6 Austin vs. 27 Houston. V&E = 3 Austin vs. 30 in Houston. , Andrews Kurth = 3 Austin vs. 27 Houston. WSGR = 3 Austin vs. 29 Palo Alto, K&L Gates = 0 Austin. Bracewell = 0 Astin. Locke Lord = 0 Austin (although 4 1Ls). (obviously some firms are not on here).

Glad to have some reality in this thread. By your numbers here and the other firms mentioned in your later post, that makes ~<30 SA spots in the entire city at "biglaw" firms. That's really extremely little and highlights the difficulty of landing a job there. There are a dozen (at least) NYC offices with summer classes larger than that.

[Anonymous User]

Glad to have some reality in this thread. By your numbers here and the other firms mentioned in your later post, that makes ~<30 SA spots in the entire city at "biglaw" firms. That's really extremely little and highlights the difficulty of landing a job there. There are a dozen (at least) NYC offices with summer classes larger than that.

Quoted anon here. Obviously this thread has gone off the rails and OP's question has been answered 50 times. For anyone else interested in Austin legal market, I always think seeing the hard numbers helps you get a better picture than just scattered anecdotes from this firm or that firm. At a very, very generous estimate, there might be ~40-50 "biglaw" SA's in all of Austin. That is maybe what, the size of 2 biglaw summer classes in NYC? Yeah that just goes to show you both how small Austin is and how immense the NYC market is too.

Do I think the Austin legal market is bad? Absolutely not. It's just a market for laterals and experienced attorneys. I don't think it has the size/capability to support larger numbers of 2/3L/1st year hires right now. Maybe that will change in the next 5 years.

[Lalabatman]

So I'll give my own personal anecdote of this as I graduated from UT, and I'll supplement it with some actual numbers. TLDR of this: will OP be likely to get a 2L/3L oci gig in Austin? Plausible but highly unlikely. He has much better shot at waiting a few years, doing corp work with focus on VC/tech and then lateraling in.

(below discussion is in reference to 2L/3L OCI Hiring)

1) Biglaw Market in Austin is REALLY SMALL.

Austin population is booming, but that doesn't mean that the amount of biglaw jobs available is also increasing. So on either coast you'll find biglaw summer classes in the 15+ range everywhere you look. Let's take a look at some of the biggest firms and how their Austin 2L summer classes look (this is via NALP).Baker Botts = 7 Austin vs. 26 Houston. Norton Rose Fulbright = 6 Austin vs. 27 Houston. V&E = 3 Austin vs. 30 in Houston. , Andrews Kurth = 3 Austin vs. 27 Houston. WSGR = 3 Austin vs. 29 Palo Alto, K&L Gates = 0 Austin. Bracewell = 0 Astin. Locke Lord = 0 Austin (although 4 1Ls). (obviously some firms are not on here).

Here's the other thing you have to remember about these already small classes. Several of these SA positions are IP ONLY. WSGR does a ton of patent prosecution work for example out of their Austin office, Same with Baker Botts. Of the small handful of people I know from UT who got Austin biglaw SAs, almost all of them were IP kids. EDIT: I'll correct this line a bit. There were definitely kids who weren't IP get Austin jobs, but on the whole if you were IP --> much easier time finding Austin work.

There were plenty of smaller firms that hired kids here, but that was how the traditional "biglaw" hiring in Austin went from how I could see it. Lots of these "smaller" firms were pretty prestigious too (Scott Douglass McConnico etc), but class sizes are real small and they are incredibly picky about who they take.

So on a numbers game alone, people who bid Austin exclusively/primarily are at a huge disadvantage

2) Austin Ties vs. Texas Ties

Austin Ties are Not that important. Dallas/Houston care much more about city ties than Austin does. 9/10 of the people in Austin are transplants and get why people want to move there. With that said, TEXAS ties are important. People love this state, so it definitely helps to have some connection to the state itself, if not Austin. I was a transplant to Texas as a whole, and I got drilled a LOT about why I wanted to move to Texas, even as a UT grad.

3) Austin itself

I love Austin, everyone loves Austin, it's a great place. With that said, it's not THAT amazing. You have amazing food/nightlife scene, new things to do all the time, great weather, young/active residents. You also have really bad traffic, no good museums (compared to ones on coast), skyrocketing COL (especially compared to the much cheaper Dallas/Houston TX cities. You're paycheck will go farther than NY/SF, but it won't go that much farther), no sports team besides UT, invasion of hippies/homeless every year during ACL and SXSW, etc. This applies to every city, hence why people get suspicious when moving without ties because it you might end up not actually like "living" here as opposed to just "visiting" for a few days.



So most important part for OP? Under absolutely no circumstances should OP ever take an Austin nonprofit gig over a PAID (fabulously paid) 1L summer gig with any of these firms above (EDIT: one's OP mentioned). Take the 1L summer gig, make it into a 2L summer gig (hey you just got to avoid all the hassle of 2L OCI process and can watch your friends freak out), get some experience in VC/tech and try to lateral. If you still feel like moving to Austin after a few years it will still be here. Why risk striking out and scrambling to find something vs comfortably moving in like 5 years?

Thanks for all the advice on my neurosis (this post specifically but everyone who offered input!). If anyone was curious or if any future Austin hopeful stumbles upon this thread -- I will be in Austin my 2L summer. Super excited!