Dropping in 1st semester at T14 Forum

[NoLongerALurker]

To be completely honest, the whole 1L has to suck and be this crucible of pain schtick has been blown completely out of proportion. It's stressful. It's more than you expected. And there are about four hellish weeks before your first final where you doubt every decision you've ever made. But through it all, you can have fun; you can enjoy life and have new experiences; you can kill it. Going out four times in law school? What? You can go out four times a week. I've had incredible experiences over the past three years, not comparable to college, sure, but compared to work? Yes, law school blows, but its not because you can't enjoy your life. It's because of the massive opportunity cost and debt and the unadulterated shit you get out of it: practice of law at a junior level. Working is so much worse than school. In law school, you get most of your time to yourself, and during summers, you do fake work and get paid way more than you're worth. You can take such extreme liberties and have so much fun.

1L compounds all your pressures and worst fears, and the vast majority of law students should drop out because there's a glut of lawyers and tons of more interesting work for anyone with a shred of creativity and intellect, but fuck me if I'll look back on my time in law school and say I was universally lame and miserable. School, in the abstract sense, is awesome. If I had wealthy parents, fuck yes I'd go to graduate school. If you don't have wealthy parents, its a huge waste of time and resources unless you're forcing someone else to pay via scholarship. The true crucible is the debt, and I have a lot less than you would have and it makes me want to vomit each day.

QFT. x10.

accidental anon

[lavarman84]

My concern about my performance combed fled the following. 1. Did poorly on offical practice exam. 2. Haven't even started on outlining and am always behind on readings.

I am not sure what exact work I would want. I was generally interested in public interest law that might involve people with disabilities or work in health law.

Also as you note I may have felt better if I were doing well but I am not. Indeed the constant pressure to "do well" when you know you are graduating with over 200k in debt is a large part of what makes law school a horrible experience for me. Problem as I say is that I don't have a backup. I would not be homeless but I would certainly be unemployed for some time.

FWIW, my first practice exams were terrible and I didn't outline until the week of exams. I still did extremely well. If you can't get your money back, might as well stick it out through the end of the semester, work hard, and see how you do.

[DrSpaceman]

I hope that OP took some solace in the answers on this thread, because I'm a current 1L who used to think he was smart and now feels totally overwhelmed too, and this thread has really made me feel better.

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

law school is fine. it's the people inside it that suck balls. and the debt too obviously.

[Glasseyes]

Going out four times in law school? What? You can go out four times a week.

Full disclosure, I'm an old person with responsibilities at home, so this was more of a personal limitation than anything imposed by law school. My larger point—which wasn't clear—is that I don't feel like I missed out on much of anything by not attending Bar Review every week. Plenty of my classmates go out frequently and seem to enjoy themselves.

[krads153]

Working is so much worse than school. In law school, you get most of your time to yourself, and during summers, you do fake work and get paid way more than you're worth. You can take such extreme liberties and have so much fun.

Yep, practicing law is like 10000 times worse than most school (except maybe certain PhD programs since a lot of PhD programs are like full time jobs) and maybe Caltech and MIT since their curriculum is brutal (or at least Caltech's core curriculum is). I'd much rather go back to law school than practice law. I'd probably rather go to med school than practice law. I'd probably have more time in med school for myself than I would practicing law. And I know practicing attorneys who did exactly that - in part to escape working, they went back to med school.

I hope that helps guys - for most people, the light gets dimmer further down in the tunnel.

[zot1]

Working is so much worse than school. In law school, you get most of your time to yourself, and during summers, you do fake work and get paid way more than you're worth. You can take such extreme liberties and have so much fun.

Yep, working is like 10000 times worse than most school (except maybe certain PhD programs since a lot of PhD programs are like full time jobs) and maybe Caltech and MIT since their curriculum is brutal (or at least Caltech's core curriculum is). I'd much rather go back to law school than practice law. I'd probably rather go to med school than practice law. I'd probably have more time in med school for myself than I would practicing law. And I know practicing attorneys who did exactly that - in part to escape working, they went back to med school.

I hope that helps guys - for most people, the light gets dimmer further down in the tunnel.

Dude, apply to other jobs. I love my job and I know others who do too. It is definitely a possibility.

[krads153]

Working is so much worse than school. In law school, you get most of your time to yourself, and during summers, you do fake work and get paid way more than you're worth. You can take such extreme liberties and have so much fun.

Yep, working is like 10000 times worse than most school (except maybe certain PhD programs since a lot of PhD programs are like full time jobs) and maybe Caltech and MIT since their curriculum is brutal (or at least Caltech's core curriculum is). I'd much rather go back to law school than practice law. I'd probably rather go to med school than practice law. I'd probably have more time in med school for myself than I would practicing law. And I know practicing attorneys who did exactly that - in part to escape working, they went back to med school.

I hope that helps guys - for most people, the light gets dimmer further down in the tunnel.

Dude, apply to other jobs. I love my job and I know others who do too. It is definitely a possibility.

I'd like fed gov, but that's a crapshoot to get. Most firms are just like any other. And a lot of in house jobs are the same crap over and over again with not necessarily better hours.

Honestly though, I had like unlimited amounts of free time in law school. I didn't do most of the reading since you don't need to to do okay. Work smart, not hard. In practice, you can't do that - there are no shortcuts.

[totesTheGoat]

Yep, practicing law is like 10000 times worse than most school (except maybe certain PhD programs since a lot of PhD programs are like full time jobs) and maybe Caltech and MIT since their curriculum is brutal (or at least Caltech's core curriculum is). I'd much rather go back to law school than practice law. I'd probably rather go to med school than practice law. I'd probably have more time in med school for myself than I would practicing law. And I know practicing attorneys who did exactly that - in part to escape working, they went back to med school.

I hope that helps guys - for most people, the light gets dimmer further down in the tunnel.

If you go to law school and rack up 6 figures of debt just to go work a soul sucking job in order to pay that debt off, you're doing law school wrong. This is why I hound the 0Ls so much about what they want to do with their law degree. Life is miserable if you spend the entire time chasing a rabbit that you'll never catch.

[krads153]

Yep, practicing law is like 10000 times worse than most school (except maybe certain PhD programs since a lot of PhD programs are like full time jobs) and maybe Caltech and MIT since their curriculum is brutal (or at least Caltech's core curriculum is). I'd much rather go back to law school than practice law. I'd probably rather go to med school than practice law. I'd probably have more time in med school for myself than I would practicing law. And I know practicing attorneys who did exactly that - in part to escape working, they went back to med school.

I hope that helps guys - for most people, the light gets dimmer further down in the tunnel.

If you go to law school and rack up 6 figures of debt just to go work a soul sucking job in order to pay that debt off, you're doing law school wrong. This is why I hound the 0Ls so much about what they want to do with their law degree. Life is miserable if you spend the entire time chasing a rabbit that you'll never catch.

I agree, which is why I usually advise most people IRL to not go to law school unless they have a big scholarship or rich parents. A lot of our paralegals at work ended up not going to law school in part because they ask for attorneys' advice.

Unfortunately it seems like 70% of the people who go to law school, if not higher, go for the wrong reason or no reason at all.

[Anonymous User]

Didn't read all this but I just want to add that I had similar feelings to OP after bombing first semester at a T14. Even though TLS generally tells nervous 1Ls "you'll probably be median," the reality is you probably have a grasp on how well you know the material. I knew I bombed after the exams, and the one class I hit median on I felt pretty good about. A good portion of the class will be under median, and it really sucks to be there.

What follows after a bad first semester is really much worse: you have to do really well to overcome those grades, the 1L job search will be a challenge, and the 2L job search will likely last into November. I stayed because ultimately, based on prior experience as a paralegal, I knew I wanted to work as an attorney.

You still have time to learn all you need to do well on exams. But if your first semester grades suck and you can't say you want a career as an attorney, it's probably best to drop out because it's only going to get worse.

[zot1]

Working is so much worse than school. In law school, you get most of your time to yourself, and during summers, you do fake work and get paid way more than you're worth. You can take such extreme liberties and have so much fun.

Yep, working is like 10000 times worse than most school (except maybe certain PhD programs since a lot of PhD programs are like full time jobs) and maybe Caltech and MIT since their curriculum is brutal (or at least Caltech's core curriculum is). I'd much rather go back to law school than practice law. I'd probably rather go to med school than practice law. I'd probably have more time in med school for myself than I would practicing law. And I know practicing attorneys who did exactly that - in part to escape working, they went back to med school.

I hope that helps guys - for most people, the light gets dimmer further down in the tunnel.

Dude, apply to other jobs. I love my job and I know others who do too. It is definitely a possibility.

I'd like fed gov, but that's a crapshoot to get. Most firms are just like any other. And a lot of in house jobs are the same crap over and over again with not necessarily better hours.

Honestly though, I had like unlimited amounts of free time in law school. I didn't do most of the reading since you don't need to to do okay. Work smart, not hard. In practice, you can't do that - there are no shortcuts.

But you are admitting that there are better jobs with work-life balance. Just because getting hired in government (or other potentially more fulfilling jobs) is hard it doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

[zot1]

Yep, practicing law is like 10000 times worse than most school (except maybe certain PhD programs since a lot of PhD programs are like full time jobs) and maybe Caltech and MIT since their curriculum is brutal (or at least Caltech's core curriculum is). I'd much rather go back to law school than practice law. I'd probably rather go to med school than practice law. I'd probably have more time in med school for myself than I would practicing law. And I know practicing attorneys who did exactly that - in part to escape working, they went back to med school.

I hope that helps guys - for most people, the light gets dimmer further down in the tunnel.

If you go to law school and rack up 6 figures of debt just to go work a soul sucking job in order to pay that debt off, you're doing law school wrong. This is why I hound the 0Ls so much about what they want to do with their law degree. Life is miserable if you spend the entire time chasing a rabbit that you'll never catch.

I have that much debt right now. I'm happy how things turned out for me, but I'm also very aware that I could have just as well been in a different, more terrible position. That's why I try really hard now to make people aware of debt and the job market. It is incredible how many of us went into law school thinking we were special snowflakes.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Re: which is better, school or work - I like my job (also not at a firm), and while I definitely like free time better than I like my job, I didn't have a lot of free time in school because I did a ton of shit so I'd be able to get this job. Beyond that, though, once you've been a grownup, school is annoying. Like, if I could be independently wealthy and not work? Excellent. Going back to school? It's like the opposite of being a grownup (not just bc you don't have responsibilities, but because you don't have any control over the system). I don't miss that at all.

[Anonymous User]

Didn't read all this but I just want to add that I had similar feelings to OP after bombing first semester at a T14. Even though TLS generally tells nervous 1Ls "you'll probably be median," the reality is you probably have a grasp on how well you know the material. I knew I bombed after the exams, and the one class I hit median on I felt pretty good about. A good portion of the class will be under median, and it really sucks to be there.

What follows after a bad first semester is really much worse: you have to do really well to overcome those grades, the 1L job search will be a challenge, and the 2L job search will likely last into November. I stayed because ultimately, based on prior experience as a paralegal, I knew I wanted to work as an attorney.

You still have time to learn all you need to do well on exams. But if your first semester grades suck and you can't say you want a career as an attorney, it's probably best to drop out because it's only going to get worse.

Credited.

I didn't feel confident and, surprise, I did end up below median. I got a non-firm job in January of 2L. I'm now a 3L looking for post-grad employment with no end and no hope in sight.

And this at a "T6" school.

Law sucks and if I had any decent alternatives I would be pursuing them instead.

[krads153]

Working is so much worse than school. In law school, you get most of your time to yourself, and during summers, you do fake work and get paid way more than you're worth. You can take such extreme liberties and have so much fun.

Yep, working is like 10000 times worse than most school (except maybe certain PhD programs since a lot of PhD programs are like full time jobs) and maybe Caltech and MIT since their curriculum is brutal (or at least Caltech's core curriculum is). I'd much rather go back to law school than practice law. I'd probably rather go to med school than practice law. I'd probably have more time in med school for myself than I would practicing law. And I know practicing attorneys who did exactly that - in part to escape working, they went back to med school.

I hope that helps guys - for most people, the light gets dimmer further down in the tunnel.

Dude, apply to other jobs. I love my job and I know others who do too. It is definitely a possibility.

I'd like fed gov, but that's a crapshoot to get. Most firms are just like any other. And a lot of in house jobs are the same crap over and over again with not necessarily better hours.

Honestly though, I had like unlimited amounts of free time in law school. I didn't do most of the reading since you don't need to to do okay. Work smart, not hard. In practice, you can't do that - there are no shortcuts.

But you are admitting that there are better jobs with work-life balance. Just because getting hired in government (or other potentially more fulfilling jobs) is hard it doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

I know - I should try, but I'm just saying it's uncommon in law because for the most part law grads are unemployed/in other fields or at firms. Also not all fed gov jobs are created equal - a bunch of them work you as hard as firms do (e.g., DOJ).

Law in general has worse work-life balance than other fields, and that includes public interest jobs. My PI friends often work 50+ weeks even though they get paid less than nurses do on average...one of my friends works on average 60 hour weeks in public interest and gets paid less than 60k in NYC. If you want QOL and work-life balance, you shouldn't become a lawyer, period. Your odds of landing a job with high QOL are much greater in other fields.

[zot1]

Re: which is better, school or work - I like my job (also not at a firm), and while I definitely like free time better than I like my job, I didn't have a lot of free time in school because I did a ton of shit so I'd be able to get this job. Beyond that, though, once you've been a grownup, school is annoying. Like, if I could be independently wealthy and not work? Excellent. Going back to school? It's like the opposite of being a grownup (not just bc you don't have responsibilities, but because you don't have any control over the system). I don't miss that at all.

School also blows for other reasons--I feel a lot more respected now as a member of the profession than I ever did as a student. Also, having money that I'm not going to pay back is nice. And I like the feeling that I'm contributing to something important compared to burning brain cells to answer hypos.

[krads153]

Re: which is better, school or work - I like my job (also not at a firm), and while I definitely like free time better than I like my job, I didn't have a lot of free time in school because I did a ton of shit so I'd be able to get this job. Beyond that, though, once you've been a grownup, school is annoying. Like, if I could be independently wealthy and not work? Excellent. Going back to school? It's like the opposite of being a grownup (not just bc you don't have responsibilities, but because you don't have any control over the system). I don't miss that at all.

Positives of school are free time, learning new things all the time, there's an "end" at the end of each semester, rather than continuous churning forever until death, etc. You can also pick and choose what assignments to tackle since for the most part it's useless for the exams. I also have very limited control in my job, so I felt like I had a lot more control in school. If I didn't feel like going to class one day, I wouldn't. If that happened at work, at a lot of places you'd be fired.

[krads153]

Yep, practicing law is like 10000 times worse than most school (except maybe certain PhD programs since a lot of PhD programs are like full time jobs) and maybe Caltech and MIT since their curriculum is brutal (or at least Caltech's core curriculum is). I'd much rather go back to law school than practice law. I'd probably rather go to med school than practice law. I'd probably have more time in med school for myself than I would practicing law. And I know practicing attorneys who did exactly that - in part to escape working, they went back to med school.

I hope that helps guys - for most people, the light gets dimmer further down in the tunnel.

If you go to law school and rack up 6 figures of debt just to go work a soul sucking job in order to pay that debt off, you're doing law school wrong. This is why I hound the 0Ls so much about what they want to do with their law degree. Life is miserable if you spend the entire time chasing a rabbit that you'll never catch.

I have that much debt right now. I'm happy how things turned out for me, but I'm also very aware that I could have just as well been in a different, more terrible position. That's why I try really hard now to make people aware of debt and the job market. It is incredible how many of us went into law school thinking we were special snowflakes.

Also, to add to that, I've done biglaw with and without debt, and it's soul-sucking either way. It's worse with debt, but still soul-sucking even if you don't have any.

[totesTheGoat]

It is incredible how many of us went into law school thinking we were special snowflakes.

Yes. Books could be (and have been) written on the malpractice that parents and other authority figures perpetrate on the younger generations by infecting them with Special Snowflake Syndrome.

Also, to add to that, I've done biglaw with and without debt, and it's soul-sucking either way. It's worse with debt, but still soul-sucking even if you don't have any.

I think that the only people who enjoy and thrive in biglaw are workaholics. I derive very little enjoyment from work, so I struggle working in biglaw, even on the limited basis that I work (I'm in school and work full-time for a biglaw firm, so the hours I work at the firm are capped by my school commitments). Whenever school gets rough, it's really hard to drag my sorry ass into work and put in my hours, because working 60+ hours a week for years at a time (school and work combined) is a miserable lifestyle for those who don't enjoy work.

Biglaw is soul-sucking, even when you're attempting to prevent debt. It's not just the hours that get to you, it can be the culture, the environment, or a host of other things.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Re: which is better, school or work - I like my job (also not at a firm), and while I definitely like free time better than I like my job, I didn't have a lot of free time in school because I did a ton of shit so I'd be able to get this job. Beyond that, though, once you've been a grownup, school is annoying. Like, if I could be independently wealthy and not work? Excellent. Going back to school? It's like the opposite of being a grownup (not just bc you don't have responsibilities, but because you don't have any control over the system). I don't miss that at all.

Positives of school are free time, learning new things all the time, there's an "end" at the end of each semester, rather than continuous churning forever until death, etc. You can also pick and choose what assignments to tackle since for the most part it's useless for the exams. I also have very limited control in my job, so I felt like I had a lot more control in school. If I didn't feel like going to class one day, I wouldn't. If that happened at work, at a lot of places you'd be fired.

I don't mean there aren't any positives about school. I just think school-control is the limited control of a rat in a maze. You're still infantilized. Employed, you're an adult. But to be fair, I never felt that way until I went back to school after having a career. (I enjoyed school fine, there's just a point when being in school sucks.)

[Anonymous User]

Re: which is better, school or work - I like my job (also not at a firm), and while I definitely like free time better than I like my job, I didn't have a lot of free time in school because I did a ton of shit so I'd be able to get this job. Beyond that, though, once you've been a grownup, school is annoying. Like, if I could be independently wealthy and not work? Excellent. Going back to school? It's like the opposite of being a grownup (not just bc you don't have responsibilities, but because you don't have any control over the system). I don't miss that at all.

Positives of school are free time, learning new things all the time, there's an "end" at the end of each semester, rather than continuous churning forever until death, etc. You can also pick and choose what assignments to tackle since for the most part it's useless for the exams. I also have very limited control in my job, so I felt like I had a lot more control in school. If I didn't feel like going to class one day, I wouldn't. If that happened at work, at a lot of places you'd be fired.

I don't mean there aren't any positives about school. I just think school-control is the limited control of a rat in a maze. You're still infantilized. Employed, you're an adult. But to be fair, I never felt that way until I went back to school after having a career. (I enjoyed school fine, there's just a point when being in school sucks.)

I agree with this. If you' were earning an income and paying off your college debt then leaving that only to incur more debt sucks, because the whole time you're keenly aware you'll be spending a large portion of your life paying for this experience, and the experience isn't fun. In addition, it's all fake made up work so getting good grades doesn't feel great, and getting bad grades feels bad, because you're probably a competitive person if you're at t-14 school.

There's also the fact that hardwork doesn't guarantee anything so you don't feel particularly good about yourself after putting in a productive 12-hour study day. Contrarily, even if the work you do in practice is boring, you can at least go home after a 12-hour day knowing you contributed to the team and earned a day's pay.

[Anonymous User]

Re: which is better, school or work - I like my job (also not at a firm), and while I definitely like free time better than I like my job, I didn't have a lot of free time in school because I did a ton of shit so I'd be able to get this job. Beyond that, though, once you've been a grownup, school is annoying. Like, if I could be independently wealthy and not work? Excellent. Going back to school? It's like the opposite of being a grownup (not just bc you don't have responsibilities, but because you don't have any control over the system). I don't miss that at all.

Positives of school are free time, learning new things all the time, there's an "end" at the end of each semester, rather than continuous churning forever until death, etc. You can also pick and choose what assignments to tackle since for the most part it's useless for the exams. I also have very limited control in my job, so I felt like I had a lot more control in school. If I didn't feel like going to class one day, I wouldn't. If that happened at work, at a lot of places you'd be fired.

I don't mean there aren't any positives about school. I just think school-control is the limited control of a rat in a maze. You're still infantilized. Employed, you're an adult. But to be fair, I never felt that way until I went back to school after having a career. (I enjoyed school fine, there's just a point when being in school sucks.)

I agree with this. If you' were earning an income and paying off your college debt then leaving that only to incur more debt sucks, because the whole time you're keenly aware you'll be spending a large portion of your life paying for this experience, and the experience isn't fun. In addition, it's all fake made up work so getting good grades doesn't feel great, and getting bad grades feels bad, because you're probably a competitive person if you're at t-14 school.

There's also the fact that hardwork doesn't guarantee anything so you don't feel particularly good about yourself after putting in a productive 12-hour study day. Contrarily, even if the work you do in practice is boring, you can at least go home after a 12-hour day knowing you contributed to the team and earned a day's pay.

Accidental anon ^

[AReasonableMan]

Re: which is better, school or work - I like my job (also not at a firm), and while I definitely like free time better than I like my job, I didn't have a lot of free time in school because I did a ton of shit so I'd be able to get this job. Beyond that, though, once you've been a grownup, school is annoying. Like, if I could be independently wealthy and not work? Excellent. Going back to school? It's like the opposite of being a grownup (not just bc you don't have responsibilities, but because you don't have any control over the system). I don't miss that at all.

Positives of school are free time, learning new things all the time, there's an "end" at the end of each semester, rather than continuous churning forever until death, etc. You can also pick and choose what assignments to tackle since for the most part it's useless for the exams. I also have very limited control in my job, so I felt like I had a lot more control in school. If I didn't feel like going to class one day, I wouldn't. If that happened at work, at a lot of places you'd be fired.

I don't mean there aren't any positives about school. I just think school-control is the limited control of a rat in a maze. You're still infantilized. Employed, you're an adult. But to be fair, I never felt that way until I went back to school after having a career. (I enjoyed school fine, there's just a point when being in school sucks.)

I agree with this. If you' were earning an income and paying off your college debt then leaving that only to incur more debt sucks, because the whole time you're keenly aware you'll be spending a large portion of your life paying for this experience, and the experience isn't fun. In addition, it's all fake made up work so getting good grades doesn't feel great, and getting bad grades feels bad, because you're probably a competitive person if you're at t-14 school.

There's also the fact that hardwork doesn't guarantee anything so you don't feel particularly good about yourself after putting in a productive 12-hour study day. Contrarily, even if the work you do in practice is boring, you can at least go home after a 12-hour day knowing you contributed to the team and earned a day's pay.

Accidental anon ^

Accidental anon x2 ^^

[jbagelboy]

Re: which is better, school or work - I like my job (also not at a firm), and while I definitely like free time better than I like my job, I didn't have a lot of free time in school because I did a ton of shit so I'd be able to get this job. Beyond that, though, once you've been a grownup, school is annoying. Like, if I could be independently wealthy and not work? Excellent. Going back to school? It's like the opposite of being a grownup (not just bc you don't have responsibilities, but because you don't have any control over the system). I don't miss that at all.

Positives of school are free time, learning new things all the time, there's an "end" at the end of each semester, rather than continuous churning forever until death, etc. You can also pick and choose what assignments to tackle since for the most part it's useless for the exams. I also have very limited control in my job, so I felt like I had a lot more control in school. If I didn't feel like going to class one day, I wouldn't. If that happened at work, at a lot of places you'd be fired.

I don't mean there aren't any positives about school. I just think school-control is the limited control of a rat in a maze. You're still infantilized. Employed, you're an adult. But to be fair, I never felt that way until I went back to school after having a career. (I enjoyed school fine, there's just a point when being in school sucks.)

I agree with this. If you' were earning an income and paying off your college debt then leaving that only to incur more debt sucks, because the whole time you're keenly aware you'll be spending a large portion of your life paying for this experience, and the experience isn't fun. In addition, it's all fake made up work so getting good grades doesn't feel great, and getting bad grades feels bad, because you're probably a competitive person if you're at t-14 school.

There's also the fact that hardwork doesn't guarantee anything so you don't feel particularly good about yourself after putting in a productive 12-hour study day. Contrarily, even if the work you do in practice is boring, you can at least go home after a 12-hour day knowing you contributed to the team and earned a day's pay.

If any of this is directed back towards my initial school versus work comparison, for what it's worth, I completely agree with the first paragraph here and nony's comment preceding it; my post was heavily laced with the crucial caveat that school is only positive in the abstract, and borrowing money to attend flips the inequality. Knowing what you're paying both in the moment and for the next decade and what you're receiving for it is eternally damning, not so much the quality of the years themselves taken in isolation. Incidentally, I actually think a lot of my rich friends liked/like law school.