Did I just blow my chances with a specific law firm for 3L mass mailing by going to office hours? Forum

[fats provolone]

ok but just to be clear, do not fucking include some ridiculous preemptive lie explaining the previous lie in your cover letter. that is psychotic.

[Anonymous User]

???

[fats provolone]

here i'll give you an easy heuristic that your robot brain can understand:

do not ever use the words "April" or "dad" again

[Anonymous User]

???

[JusticeJackson]

OP, based on your posts here I'm not really convinced you'd pull off the "April, my dad" scenario. You're also catastrophizing the impact of "still looking." You could have just said "still looking, do you have any advice?" and continued the conversation.

I don't think the issue is morality as much as you seem to have a hard time figuring out human conversation.

I'd say I was sufficiently attuned to the momentum and rapport building up to have known that still looking would've deflated one thing or another. His perception of me as competent least among them. But OK maybe that's catastrophizing it.

Still, the "April, my dad" scenario would be done over email. I'd either keep my mouth shut and wait for him to bring up the 10month old chitchat (interceded by more substantive & memorable discussion in the next few weeks). Or a preemptive "I may have told you...but April, my dad." I guess I'm not seeing how this, if done over email (or in person for that matter), would be difficult to pull off even conceding my misapprehension of human conversation.

If my firm hires you I'll quit.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I'd say I was sufficiently attuned to the momentum and rapport building up to have known that still looking would've deflated one thing or another. His perception of me as competent least among them. But OK maybe that's catastrophizing it.

Still, the "April, my dad" scenario would be done over email. I'd either keep my mouth shut and wait for him to bring up the 10month old chitchat (interceded by more substantive & memorable discussion in the next few weeks). Or a preemptive "I may have told you...but April, my dad." I guess I'm not seeing how this, if done over email (or in person for that matter), would be difficult to pull off even conceding my misapprehension of human conversation.

Next time you're going to be this dumb, please wear a helmet.

[trebekismyhero]

I just want to say thank you for this thread

[Paul Campos]

Shall we continue? Describe, in single words, only the good things that come in to your mind about your mother.

[middlemarch]

What did you actually do instead of "non-NYC FirmX"?

[pancakes3]

What did you actually do instead of "non-NYC FirmX"?

Taking care of his dad, starting in April. Please try to keep up.

[Johann]

Not only are you a psychotic but your lie sucks too. Nobody wants to hire someone whose going to choose helping their ailing family member over work in biglaw. And nobody personally wants to work with anyone who drops emotional bombs out of nowhere like yeah my dads real sick so I did this because of that and the partner is left thinking damn I didn't even ask him why and this is the sob story I get.

If you are going to manipulate people with your words you have a lot of learning to do.

[TTTooKewl]

This is the law school equivalent of a single guy walking up to a gorgeous blonde at the bar and announcing he has a girlfriend.

Underrated post.

Also, OP, you don't seem like a bad dude, but I agree with other posters in this thread that you should have just told the prof the truth. This prof is a real human who either likes you or doesn't. (In your life, you like people or don't for whatever reason.) His opinion of you isn't going to change because you don't have anything lined up. That's not how humans work (with the exception of some strange, asocial humans).

[fats provolone]

This is the law school equivalent of a single guy walking up to a gorgeous blonde at the bar and announcing he has a girlfriend.

Underrated post.

Also, OP, you don't seem like a bad dude, but I agree with other posters in this thread that you should have just told the prof the truth. This prof is a real human who either likes you or doesn't. (In your life, you like people or don't for whatever reason.) His opinion of you isn't going to change because you don't have anything lined up. That's not how humans work (with the exception of some strange, asocial humans).

I get that you're trying to be helpful, but you just had to be there

At the time when the partner asked what he was doing next summer, OP's likeability could be modeled by the following linear equation:

b0 + (b1 * confidence) + (b2 * rapport) + (b3 * classroom performance) + (b4 * perceived success) + ε

Admitting he didn't have anything lined up for the summer would have impacted both the confidence AND perceived success terms, which were significant to the 0.01 level

So maybe don't speculate when you don't have all the data?

[lavarman84]

Short term (if it ever comes up, which it might not) just say you reconsidered the offer and didn't like the area upon visiting, didn't like the practice areas, whatever. As long as you have a semi-believable reason, saying it with a straight face and not over explaining your decision will get you through. He'll probably still think you're kinda bullshitting, but he won't attribute it to the outright lie you told him in office hours.

I didn't gratuitously tell him "btw, I'm going to a nonNYC firm whose V ranking is much lower than yours," (so nothing like the girlfriend in a bar disanalogy).
He asked me in chit chat (like 10mins into chitchat, so there was some rapport + a projection of competence from the semester so far, office hours that day, etc). If I had told the truth, that would've led to a deflating "Oh." And the projection of competence would've come crashing down, which might affect how he evaluates his half of the non-anonymously graded papers/whatnot.

I don't think it would have gone down that way at all. If you had the ability to spin it competently, there wouldn't be a deflating "oh" and the conversation might have led somewhere beneficial for you.

For example, "Where are you working this summer?" You: "As of now, I haven't made any plans. I'm trying to find the right situation and firm that I could see myself working at for the long haul."

That's it. He either changes the subject or he asks what sort of things you're looking for and you explain. And maybe he offers to help. But no matter what, you don't come out looking incompetent or dishonest.

No one just "reconsiders" an offer and backs out of it into unemployment. But what exactly about telling him in August'16 "April, my dad, had to stay on the East Coast" is less believable than backing out of an offer and straight into unemployment?

It wouldn't be the first time someone who wanted to study/work in London/Tokyo/across the country suddenly had to choose a different college/job to stay near home to "attend to" a family member.

It's not about it being less believable. It's about you lying again to try and fix this. And based on your previous social encounter, none of us have much faith in your ability to come out ahead in this scenario.

Like I said, I'll take your abuse & moral judgments on telling the truth vs "telling the truth" in another thread.

As of now, the plan is to knock the class out of the park, build rapport etc. Then, next summer, go with "April, my dad" when I reach out re 3L OCI. I guess I'm not seeing how he'd be incredulous at an "April, my dad" explanation.

This is such a bad idea. Dude, the moral in this story is not to lie. Your plan to rectify the lying is to lie again. Such a bad idea. You're just digging the hole deeper.

[Anonymous User]

.

[BigZuck]

Next time I alt I'm totally using "April my dad"

[Anonymous User]

???

[lavarman84]

It's not about it being less believable. It's about you lying again to try and fix this. And based on your previous social encounter, none of us have much faith in your ability to come out ahead in this scenario.

What I'm writing here anonymously is how I'm rationalizing a split-second decision into a 10minute write up balancing 5 factors, with an error term etc, p values etc etc.

How the actual encounter went down was: I didn't expect the question, in a half-second pause, I decided to go with 1 route rather than the other.

After that, we continued speaking for 5mins about nonNYC firmX as if I was actually going there (thee location, my rationale, etc). Then maybe another 10mins on some other random stuff.
He wasn't like "oh, that was such an obvious lie and you're a total weirdo, let me end this convo FAST."

So my 500x zoom into my thought process (yea, flawed, immoral, psychotic, this and that) when I have hours/days to think about it may seem robotic to you and m, writing about it here.

But I know IRL how it'd look if I pause for too long as if I were weighing 4 factors. So *he on the receiving end of a 5min convo re firmX that had a before and an after--why would that interaction raise your doubts about my social competence to pull off "well, since you asked, in April..."

There's a reason I'm anonymously asking a bunch of anonymous people instead of an IRL confidante.

So just assume I feel really bad about lying and I'll do 100x pushups a day, donate to United Way to repent etc: what's the downside to saying "well since you asked" and why wouldn't he believe it?

Which is the problem. Your improvisational skills are bad and you made a bad decision. Let's assume you get to the point where you have to lie (because, honestly, you might not even have to...the dude likely won't remember unless you continue to bring it up). Like any other conversation, it's likely not going to go exactly as you plan it will. Which means you'll be forced to improvise again. And based on your track record...

Plus, are you not planning to work this coming summer? What are your summer plans? Because the dad excuse might go out the window depending on the job you end up with.

[Anonymous User]

???

[lavarman84]

Which is the problem. Your improvisational skills are bad and you made a bad decision. Let's assume you get to the point where you have to lie (because, honestly, you might not even have to...the dude likely won't remember unless you continue to bring it up). Like any other conversation, it's likely not going to go exactly as you plan it will. Which means you'll be forced to improvise again. And based on your track record...

Plus, are you not planning to work this coming summer? What are your summer plans? Because the dad excuse might go out the window depending on the job you end up with.

My improv skills seem bad to *you and me,* sitting here, writing about it. In the moment, it worked well enough that he'd ask Q1 about FirmX. Me: Here you go, totally believable Answer1 specific to FirmX. Q2...5mins about FirmX. Then more chitchat, laughs etc. If my improv skills truly fell flat in the interaction in question, why would he continue to play ball? It wasn't like he was asking me questions to see if I was actually going to FirmX.

As for plans: the truth is still looking, but it's not like Criterion#1 is whether it lends credence to the dad thing. I'll go where I'll go, and if where I go tosses the dad thing out the window, then I'll come up with another truth to tell him *if he asks*.

Your improvisational skills are bad because you couldn't make a good decision on the spot and put yourself in a good situation. You dug yourself into a hole. And odds are, you'll only keep doing that if you try to lie again.

It's not even a discussion. You made a bad decision on the spot. It was a poor job of improvising. There was a very easy and straight-forward way of handling the interaction. You handled it poorly.

Why would he continue to play ball? Because I doubt he knows enough about the firm to be able to contradict you. And I also doubt he cares enough to try. The guy probably liked you as a person. Which makes your decision an even worse one.

Either ways, you can continue to "solicit advice" (if you want to call it that...seems more like you want confirmation that continuing to lie is a good idea) but this was handled extremely poorly and made far more complicated than it needed to be. If that's improvising well to you, so be it.

But speaking bluntly, you lied to the guy because you were insecure about not having a job. And this guy happens to be in the position to help you find a job. As another person said with their blonde at the bar example, you managed to turn a great opportunity into a potential problem.

So I'll say again (and for the final time, I'll leave you alone), the moral of the story here should be to be honest. Lying put you in the hole you're currently in. Unfortunately, I don't think fessing up would really fix the problem (then again, if you actually are good at improvising...you might be able to smooth things over). Best chance is to try and move on and hope the guy forgets about it.

[Clearly]

OP. It'd make everyone feel a lot better if you just admit you fucked up. This whole rationalizing one of the shittiest moves I've ever seen thing is played out. I'm not even coming at this from a moral high ground place, that guy could have offered you a job. You literally demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of people. If I were you, I would have been overjoyed with his question because it was an in. You should have used it to explain that you don't have a job but not because you suck, but other reasons. Your goal should have been to make him say "damn, this kid is great and this is a shame, idk if we can take him, but let me talk to my friends, I'd love nothing more than to save this kids ass". That's how people work, not "he's unemployed, ergo he is the worst and I shall lower my appreciation of him and ensure he fails".

And like I get it, you fucked up under pressure, it happens, but at least just say you fucked up, not even because I want to hear it, but because it will reinforce that this was very no bueno, and hopefully prevent you from shooting yourself in the foot next time you have a shot.

[SemperLegal]

Which is the problem. Your improvisational skills are bad and you made a bad decision. Let's assume you get to the point where you have to lie (because, honestly, you might not even have to...the dude likely won't remember unless you continue to bring it up). Like any other conversation, it's likely not going to go exactly as you plan it will. Which means you'll be forced to improvise again. And based on your track record...

Plus, are you not planning to work this coming summer? What are your summer plans? Because the dad excuse might go out the window depending on the job you end up with.

My improv skills seem bad to *you and me,* sitting here, writing about it. In the moment, it worked well enough that he'd ask Q1 about FirmX. Me: Here you go, totally believable Answer1 specific to FirmX. Q2...5mins about FirmX. Then more chitchat, laughs etc. If my improv skills truly fell flat in the interaction in question, why would he continue to play ball? It wasn't like he was asking me questions to see if I was actually going to FirmX.

As for plans: the truth is still looking, but it's not like Criterion#1 is whether it lends credence to the dad thing. I'll go where I'll go, and if where I go tosses the dad thing out the window, then I'll come up with another truth to tell him *if he asks*.

I don't understand why you think having a conversation about FirmX is a success.

Don't compound the lie, because it makes it more and more confusing and liable for revelation, especially if he actually likes you, is a human, and asks about your dad in the future. Say nothing at all about it and if, for some reason, he calls you out on it, just say your plans changed. Nothing more. Either he cares where you worked, in which case actively lying to him is undeniably fraud that will 100% work its way out during standard HR procedure resulting in a firing (and, if he's petty, charges and a disbarring),, or he doesn't care and he won't ask or expect an explanation.

[ClubberLang]

Which is the problem. Your improvisational skills are bad and you made a bad decision. Let's assume you get to the point where you have to lie (because, honestly, you might not even have to...the dude likely won't remember unless you continue to bring it up). Like any other conversation, it's likely not going to go exactly as you plan it will. Which means you'll be forced to improvise again. And based on your track record...

Plus, are you not planning to work this coming summer? What are your summer plans? Because the dad excuse might go out the window depending on the job you end up with.

My improv skills seem bad to *you and me,* sitting here, writing about it. In the moment, it worked well enough that he'd ask Q1 about FirmX. Me: Here you go, totally believable Answer1 specific to FirmX. Q2...5mins about FirmX. Then more chitchat, laughs etc. If my improv skills truly fell flat in the interaction in question, why would he continue to play ball? It wasn't like he was asking me questions to see if I was actually going to FirmX.

As for plans: the truth is still looking, but it's not like Criterion#1 is whether it lends credence to the dad thing. I'll go where I'll go, and if where I go tosses the dad thing out the window, then I'll come up with another truth to tell him *if he asks*.

You seriously sound like you are sick and need help.

[barkschool]

This is the law school equivalent of a single guy walking up to a gorgeous blonde at the bar and announcing he has a girlfriend.

Underrated post.

Also, OP, you don't seem like a bad dude, but I agree with other posters in this thread that you should have just told the prof the truth. This prof is a real human who either likes you or doesn't. (In your life, you like people or don't for whatever reason.) His opinion of you isn't going to change because you don't have anything lined up. That's not how humans work (with the exception of some strange, asocial humans).

I get that you're trying to be helpful, but you just had to be there

At the time when the partner asked what he was doing next summer, OP's likeability could be modeled by the following linear equation:

b0 + (b1 * confidence) + (b2 * rapport) + (b3 * classroom performance) + (b4 * perceived success) + ε

Admitting he didn't have anything lined up for the summer would have impacted both the confidence AND perceived success terms, which were significant to the 0.01 level

So maybe don't speculate when you don't have all the data?

You forgot an essential step. Perceived success isn't added, the entire equation is actually divide by perceived success multiplied by the vault ranking of his anonymous summer job.

[Caesar Salad]

If I remembered that someone had told me they had a job, which was not listed on their resume, and it was explained away with the tired "dead relative" schtick, I would follow up. OP: the partner is going to call your fake employer.