If you graduated without debt, would you still do BigLaw? Forum

[chalky]

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[Anonymous User]

Just curious how people graduate with zero debt. Are you receiving stipends or have money saved? Trust fund or help from family? I'm a 0L but even with full-tuition I'd still have to take out loans for housing/food/general living expenses.

Even though I was out of ug for three years and claiming my self as a dependent, the ls factored in my parent's income and assets. I had to throw myself on the mercy of my parents who resent having their income and assets redistributed. Thank god my parents would rather provide me with tuition than see me in debt.

[Jakobe]

Just curious how people graduate with zero debt. Are you receiving stipends or have money saved? Trust fund or help from family? I'm a 0L but even with full-tuition I'd still have to take out loans for housing/food/general living expenses.

Even though I was out of ug for three years and claiming my self as a dependent, the ls factored in my parent's income and assets. I had to throw myself on the mercy of my parents who resent having their income and assets redistributed. Thank god my parents would rather provide me with tuition than see me in debt.

You'll find there are a lot of wealthy people at elite law schools.

Also, some people have pretty substantive work experience and savings prior to coming to school.

[Desert Fox]

[UnicornHunter]

Just curious how people graduate with zero debt. Are you receiving stipends or have money saved? Trust fund or help from family? I'm a 0L but even with full-tuition I'd still have to take out loans for housing/food/general living expenses.

Even though I was out of ug for three years and claiming my self as a dependent, the ls factored in my parent's income and assets. I had to throw myself on the mercy of my parents who resent having their income and assets redistributed. Thank god my parents would rather provide me with tuition than see me in debt.

You'll find there are a lot of wealthy people at elite law schools.

Also, some people have pretty substantive work experience and savings prior to coming to school.

And a ton of just UMC people who's parents can pay 80k a year.

This. It might be a matter of semantics, but the very wealthy rarely have their kids do law. It's much more of a UMC profession.

[Anonymous User]

Just curious how people graduate with zero debt. Are you receiving stipends or have money saved? Trust fund or help from family? I'm a 0L but even with full-tuition I'd still have to take out loans for housing/food/general living expenses.

Just to answer your question: I accepted the best offer I had from the various schools I was considering, which was full ride + stipend. Had $20-30K saved up from working through college and a year off; stipend + summer associate money essentially allowed me to sustain my savings at a point roughly equivalent to where it was when I started law school. Very fortunate to have the opportunities I did, and also made a choice to avoid debt (I think I would have struggled mentally going through at least the first year of law school knowing I had significant debt to pay back, but that's just a personal feeling) at the expense of going to a higher-ranked school.

[Jakobe]

Just curious how people graduate with zero debt. Are you receiving stipends or have money saved? Trust fund or help from family? I'm a 0L but even with full-tuition I'd still have to take out loans for housing/food/general living expenses.

Even though I was out of ug for three years and claiming my self as a dependent, the ls factored in my parent's income and assets. I had to throw myself on the mercy of my parents who resent having their income and assets redistributed. Thank god my parents would rather provide me with tuition than see me in debt.

You'll find there are a lot of wealthy people at elite law schools.

Also, some people have pretty substantive work experience and savings prior to coming to school.

And a ton of just UMC people who's parents can pay 80k a year.

This. It might be a matter of semantics, but the very wealthy rarely have their kids do law. It's much more of a UMC profession.

Yeah I should have made that clearer. I don't think the extremely wealthy have their kids go to law school; but, I have met a lot of kids whose parents are well into the upper middle class.

[Anonymous User]

It is generally a good investment for the parents to pay for their children to go to a top law school. Over the course of their career they're likely to make the costs back and much more especially if they were a liberal arts major.

Also, and this is anecdotal, but I got the impression that those from wealthy families outperform their grades. It probably has something to do with talking the talk and walking the walk, and being less nervous at interviews because there is less on the line (they will be wealthy or upper middle class regardless). As others have said, most of the really, really wealthy people are going to have a lucrative business or a lot of real estate, and if their child can get into a top law school then they're likely going to be smart enough to take over the business or manage the portfolio.

[Anonymous User]

Also, and this is anecdotal, but I got the impression that those from wealthy families outperform their grades. It probably has something to do with talking the talk and walking the walk, and being less nervous at interviews because there is less on the line (they will be wealthy or upper middle class regardless)

100%. my anecdata shows umc kids are more confident/relaxed around authority and do well at OCI

[Arboreal]

I am graduating without debt from a T14 (as a Lower Middle Class prole), and I'll be doing biglaw in a secondary market. There is no way I would have done NYC biglaw if things hadn't panned out elsewhere; the associate lifestyle in NY just seems too assuredly bleak, even at $190,000. That said, the prospect of secondary market biglaw still has me worried that the work/life tradeoffs aren't worth the pay and exit options.

[Anonymous User]

I graduated without debt and took a job at 120k with more of a lifestyle firm in Midwest. Best decision I ever made. It's not 160, but it's also not the crazy hours, and having no debt obviously makes it easier too.

[Anonymous User]

Also, and this is anecdotal, but I got the impression that those from wealthy families outperform their grades. It probably has something to do with talking the talk and walking the walk, and being less nervous at interviews because there is less on the line (they will be wealthy or upper middle class regardless)

100%. my anecdata shows umc kids are more confident/relaxed around authority and do well at OCI

agreed. sitting through some insufferable rich girl talk to a partner about vacations in greece and italy and upscale food made me want to throw up. but i guess she was just a better "fit"!
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/opini ... .html?_r=0

[krads153]

Also, and this is anecdotal, but I got the impression that those from wealthy families outperform their grades. It probably has something to do with talking the talk and walking the walk, and being less nervous at interviews because there is less on the line (they will be wealthy or upper middle class regardless)

100%. my anecdata shows umc kids are more confident/relaxed around authority and do well at OCI

agreed. sitting through some insufferable rich girl talk to a partner about vacations in greece and italy and upscale food made me want to throw up. but i guess she was just a better "fit"!
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/opini ... .html?_r=0

If you don't want to be surrounded by UMC/rich kids, then don't go to law/med/biz school. I'd say half of my buds in biglaw are UMC/rich kids, but that doesn't make me mad. Most are pretty down to earth about it (aka they don't mention it to non-friends and nobody except their friends would know) even though their parents probably have more money than most biglaw partners.

[Desert Fox]

[krads153]

When you get to biglaw, you are UMC. Why aren't you taking Greek vacations?

Not really, imo, at least for places like NYC/SF. Also I think net worth is more important than income (since that could end at any second). If you have a lot of debt, and are still negative net worth, you're not UMC.

[Desert Fox]

[krads153]

When you get to biglaw, you are UMC. Why aren't you taking Greek vacations?

Not really, imo, at least for places like NYC/SF. Also I think net worth is more important than income (since that could end at any second). If you have a lot of debt, and are still negative net worth, you're not UMC.

I dunno, two years in and I'm making 200k. Next year I'll make 240k. You can afford a fucking Greek vacation.

Ok, true, but that still doesn't make you UMC in places like NYC/SF. Also anyone can go on a Greek vacation - you don't need to be UMC to do that.

[Desert Fox]

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, lawyering is an UMC job, even if you don't have a lot of money left over. Class isn't only about liquid assets.

[ggocat]

Graduated with no debt about 5 years ago; currently in government making $90K.

Love my job, but I wish I had done biglaw for awhile to boost my savings, get the experience, and have a seal of approval on the resume.

The people who complain about biglaw so much seem to be the ones that are stuck there due to high debt. I imagine it's more tolerable psychologically if you know you can quit any time you want.

[Anonymous User]

Just curious how people graduate with zero debt. Are you receiving stipends or have money saved? Trust fund or help from family? I'm a 0L but even with full-tuition I'd still have to take out loans for housing/food/general living expenses.

To answer this: I'm a current 3L and I took full-tuition + stipend at a Top 25 instead of taking a near sticker offer at T14. I will graduate debt free.

I worked for just over 2 years after undergrad and saved about $40K by living frugally. My significant other and I have lived all three years in a decent-sized 1 bedroom & split rent/utilities/etc. First summer I did an unpaid gig & lived with my parents. 2L summer I worked at a medium-sized law firm in my target, secondary market & should be able to finish up this year comfortably with the money I made there.

As for taking a traditional biglaw job in NYC or something - absolutely not. I want a job that I don't dread going to every day & employers who respect that I have a life outside of my firm. The firm I'll be joining after graduation (where I spent last summer), pays less than market ($100K instead of $120K), but the firm has a WAY lower billable hour requirement and the partners actually understand that associates have lives. It's a glorious concept that is, in my mind, well worth the salary downgrade.

[Cogburn87]

The people who complain about biglaw so much seem to be the ones that are stuck there due to high debt. I imagine it's more tolerable psychologically if you know you can quit any time you want.

Nah. I did biglaw with essentially no debt. It was still one of the worst experiences of my life.

[los blancos]

. I imagine it's more tolerable psychologically if you know you can quit any time you want.

I can?

[Big Shrimpin]

Living in a 3k a month 600 sq ft shithole is UMC in MFH.

[krads153]

The people who complain about biglaw so much seem to be the ones that are stuck there due to high debt. I imagine it's more tolerable psychologically if you know you can quit any time you want.

Nah. I did biglaw with essentially no debt. It was still one of the worst experiences of my life.

Not having debt makes it better, but you're still at the whim of clients/partners/seniors and constant fire drills, late nights and weekends, and random shit that comes up. Also working on stuff where you have no idea what you're doing, but at an ASAP fire drill pace.

That's biglaw in a nutshell - constant fire drills for stuff you don't understand and also everything needs to be perfect (detail orientedness!) or else you get yelled at. Also the ability to work without sleep (and often 16-18 hour days). And a "short" day being 9-10 hours of in office face time.