V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A) Forum

[BigZuck]

Guys come on, those COL calculators are whack. Of course your money goes farther in TX but let's not kid ourselves, the difference in money isn't as stark as you're making it out to be (especially if you end up not being on NYC lockstep and/or get smaller bonuses- there's conflicting info out there on the TX firms)

I think all of the firms OP is considering match NYC lockstep. I could be wrong, but I know they did when I was trying to make this decision.

Also the difference in money is that substantial. At 160K you can buy a 4 bedroom house less than a 15 minute commute from work in Dallas or Houston in a trendy neighborhood and could probably even get brand new construction. Plus no income tax. rent is cheap too. In Houston this past summer, I paid $900 for a 1 bedroom + study that was three blocks away from my office.

What trendy neighborhood in Houston are you talking about? You can't get anything affordable that is 4 bedrooms in the Heights and Montrose. And it definitely wouldn't be new construction.

You might be able to get a newer 4 bedroom townhouse for 300-400k in Midtown.

Can you PM me the name of the apartment complex you stayed at? That sounds like the dream. I couldn't find anything that close to downtown that was any good for less than around $1500.

[Anonymous User]

Guys come on, those COL calculators are whack. Of course your money goes farther in TX but let's not kid ourselves, the difference in money isn't as stark as you're making it out to be (especially if you end up not being on NYC lockstep and/or get smaller bonuses- there's conflicting info out there on the TX firms)

I think all of the firms OP is considering match NYC lockstep. I could be wrong, but I know they did when I was trying to make this decision.

Also the difference in money is that substantial. At 160K you can buy a 4 bedroom house less than a 15 minute commute from work in Dallas or Houston in a trendy neighborhood and could probably even get brand new construction. Plus no income tax. rent is cheap too. In Houston this past summer, I paid $900 for a 1 bedroom + study that was three blocks away from my office.

What trendy neighborhood in Houston are you talking about? You can't get anything affordable that is 4 bedrooms in the Heights and Montrose. And it definitely wouldn't be new construction.

You might be able to get a newer 4 bedroom townhouse for 300-400k in Midtown.

Can you PM me the name of the apartment complex you stayed at? That sounds like the dream. I couldn't find anything that close to downtown that was any good for less than around $1500.

Not the anon above but this really depends on what your definition of "was any good" is. I just did a zillow apartment search around downtown Houston area, for things less than $1100. There was plenty, plenty of 1 bedrooms places for ~1000 and less, but they just aren't in modern apartment complexes. You don't need to live in a newly built big apartment complex to live near Houston if you don't want to, just different people's priorities.

Edit: And I think these lower quality apartments are a better comparison to a place like NYC anyway, because starting associates in NYC cannot afford brand new apartment buildings with all those amenities.

Edit 2: as with life, more often than not good savings + wealth comes generally not from higher incomes but from reducing spending

[BigZuck]

Guys come on, those COL calculators are whack. Of course your money goes farther in TX but let's not kid ourselves, the difference in money isn't as stark as you're making it out to be (especially if you end up not being on NYC lockstep and/or get smaller bonuses- there's conflicting info out there on the TX firms)

I think all of the firms OP is considering match NYC lockstep. I could be wrong, but I know they did when I was trying to make this decision.

Also the difference in money is that substantial. At 160K you can buy a 4 bedroom house less than a 15 minute commute from work in Dallas or Houston in a trendy neighborhood and could probably even get brand new construction. Plus no income tax. rent is cheap too. In Houston this past summer, I paid $900 for a 1 bedroom + study that was three blocks away from my office.

What trendy neighborhood in Houston are you talking about? You can't get anything affordable that is 4 bedrooms in the Heights and Montrose. And it definitely wouldn't be new construction.

You might be able to get a newer 4 bedroom townhouse for 300-400k in Midtown.

Can you PM me the name of the apartment complex you stayed at? That sounds like the dream. I couldn't find anything that close to downtown that was any good for less than around $1500.

Not the anon above but this really depends on what your definition of "was any good" is. I just did a zillow apartment search around downtown Houston area, for things less than $1100. There was plenty, plenty of 1 bedrooms places for ~1000 and less, but they just aren't in modern apartment complexes. You don't need to live in a newly built big apartment complex to live near Houston if you don't want to, just different people's priorities.

Edit: And I think these lower quality apartments are a better comparison to a place like NYC anyway, because starting associates in NYC cannot afford brand new apartment buildings with all those amenities.

Edit 2: as with life, more often than not good savings + wealth comes generally not from higher incomes but from reducing spending

Yeah, people have all kinds of different priorities/tolerances. I don't know of any big law associates in Houston who live in those kinds of places but I can believe that it happens.

This summer I subleted in a trendy side of Houston in a roomy apartment for about 1200 (I think the person said landlord was raising it $300 for next year though). Great location. But there were all kinds of bugs, no laundry on site, no parking space, etc. It was fine for a summer but no way would I do that as an associate. Those FAT STACKS would have to buy me something better than that. If I'm going to live in swamp town USA it's going to have to be a nice place, I don't want the Mosquitos INSIDE the apartment. I'd rather live in NYC at a similar place for $2500 because at least it would be in NYC. But I can believe that someone else would tolerate it for the price/location combo.

I'm really skeptical that a solid one bedroom for $1000 close to downtown Houston is safe/not gross but I'm also excited about the possibility because that sounds great.

[BigZuck]

Putting the derailment aside for a moment, I think the OP is gone but I'll give this one last desperation BIG BUMP:

Anyway, BUMP:

In your mind, how is "Energy M&A" different that "Generalist M&A" and what's the downside with doing Energy M&A instead of Generalist M&A?

[Anonymous User]

Putting the derailment aside for a moment, I think the OP is gone but I'll give this one last desperation BIG BUMP:

Anyway, BUMP:

In your mind, how is "Energy M&A" different that "Generalist M&A" and what's the downside with doing Energy M&A instead of Generalist M&A?

I'm going to just guess mainly this will affect any exit options you do. Energy M&A you will end up in house at an energy company of some kind if you ever want out of biglaw, which also probably keeps you squarely located in Houston/maybe Dallas. Generalist M&A will do obviously more general stuff, so range of in-house positions will be broader. Also exit location will be less Houston centric if you care about that.

[BigZuck]

Putting the derailment aside for a moment, I think the OP is gone but I'll give this one last desperation BIG BUMP:

Anyway, BUMP:

In your mind, how is "Energy M&A" different that "Generalist M&A" and what's the downside with doing Energy M&A instead of Generalist M&A?

I'm going to just guess mainly this will affect any exit options you do. Energy M&A you will end up in house at an energy company of some kind if you ever want out of biglaw, which also probably keeps you squarely located in Houston/maybe Dallas. Generalist M&A will do obviously more general stuff, so range of in-house positions will be broader. Also exit location will be less Houston centric if you care about that.

But how is "Energy M&A" different from "Generalist M&A" as you're defining it?

I've only worked as a summer so I probably don't know what I'm talking about so take this with the appropriate grains of salt:
If you're going to work in house won't it most likely be for one of your firm's clients? If that's the case, how will the pool of possible jobs be any bigger if you do "generalist M&A"? Maybe it will be in a wider range of industries but that goes back to how, specifically, energy M&A is different than other forms of M&A.

I guess I'm just not convinced that you'll have more jobs open to you if you go the "generalist" route.

The location concerns sound potentially legit. If it were me and I were concerned with exit options at this point, I would probably focus on what firms would let me exit into the market I want to exit into. If you want to be in Dallas long term, well, then...

[emkay625]

Guys come on, those COL calculators are whack. Of course your money goes farther in TX but let's not kid ourselves, the difference in money isn't as stark as you're making it out to be (especially if you end up not being on NYC lockstep and/or get smaller bonuses- there's conflicting info out there on the TX firms)

I think all of the firms OP is considering match NYC lockstep. I could be wrong, but I know they did when I was trying to make this decision.

Also the difference in money is that substantial. At 160K you can buy a 4 bedroom house less than a 15 minute commute from work in Dallas or Houston in a trendy neighborhood and could probably even get brand new construction. Plus no income tax. rent is cheap too. In Houston this past summer, I paid $900 for a 1 bedroom + study that was three blocks away from my office.

What trendy neighborhood in Houston are you talking about? You can't get anything affordable that is 4 bedrooms in the Heights and Montrose. And it definitely wouldn't be new construction.

You might be able to get a newer 4 bedroom townhouse for 300-400k in Midtown.

Can you PM me the name of the apartment complex you stayed at? That sounds like the dream. I couldn't find anything that close to downtown that was any good for less than around $1500.

Not the anon above but this really depends on what your definition of "was any good" is. I just did a zillow apartment search around downtown Houston area, for things less than $1100. There was plenty, plenty of 1 bedrooms places for ~1000 and less, but they just aren't in modern apartment complexes. You don't need to live in a newly built big apartment complex to live near Houston if you don't want to, just different people's priorities.

Edit: And I think these lower quality apartments are a better comparison to a place like NYC anyway, because starting associates in NYC cannot afford brand new apartment buildings with all those amenities.

Edit 2: as with life, more often than not good savings + wealth comes generally not from higher incomes but from reducing spending

Lol this is right on. I was subletting a condo in midtown from a Rice grad student who was gone for the summer. Was it one of the newer ones? Nope. Did it have stainless steel appliances? Nope. But I contend it was the equivalent of what you'd find in Manhattan for $2500+.

Also NYC doesn't have that much that Houston doesn't have. I'm also from here though, and think hot summers are way better than cold winters.

And my best friend just bought a 4-bedroom house in the Heights for $510K. So it definitely can be done.

[BigZuck]

If we are defining 500K as affordable then we have to stop this right now. I guess technically maybe you can do that on a big law salary but for someone who has student loan debt and has to pay property taxes, for a car, etc. and will probably only last on that big law salary for a few years doing that as a junior associate seems kinda nutso to me.

IMO, when people talk about snagging that 4000 square foot house/wife combo in TX they are talking about something that is like 200-300K. You can probably get it but you're never not going to be in traffic if you are working in downtown Houston.

I fully concede that you can probably find something in the Heights for 500K but I think that cuts against the "ZOMG So affordable!" mantra that TLS has for TX in general.

Again, yes, of course it's cheaper. Is it like you're making 100-150K more a year vs NYC? No.

[blackmooncreeping]

Guys come on, those COL calculators are whack. Of course your money goes farther in TX but let's not kid ourselves, the difference in money isn't as stark as you're making it out to be (especially if you end up not being on NYC lockstep and/or get smaller bonuses- there's conflicting info out there on the TX firms)

I think all of the firms OP is considering match NYC lockstep. I could be wrong, but I know they did when I was trying to make this decision.

Also the difference in money is that substantial. At 160K you can buy a 4 bedroom house less than a 15 minute commute from work in Dallas or Houston in a trendy neighborhood and could probably even get brand new construction. Plus no income tax. rent is cheap too. In Houston this past summer, I paid $900 for a 1 bedroom + study that was three blocks away from my office.

What trendy neighborhood in Houston are you talking about? You can't get anything affordable that is 4 bedrooms in the Heights and Montrose. And it definitely wouldn't be new construction.

You might be able to get a newer 4 bedroom townhouse for 300-400k in Midtown.

Can you PM me the name of the apartment complex you stayed at? That sounds like the dream. I couldn't find anything that close to downtown that was any good for less than around $1500.

Not the anon above but this really depends on what your definition of "was any good" is. I just did a zillow apartment search around downtown Houston area, for things less than $1100. There was plenty, plenty of 1 bedrooms places for ~1000 and less, but they just aren't in modern apartment complexes. You don't need to live in a newly built big apartment complex to live near Houston if you don't want to, just different people's priorities.

Edit: And I think these lower quality apartments are a better comparison to a place like NYC anyway, because starting associates in NYC cannot afford brand new apartment buildings with all those amenities.

Edit 2: as with life, more often than not good savings + wealth comes generally not from higher incomes but from reducing spending

Lol this is right on. I was subletting a condo in midtown from a Rice grad student who was gone for the summer. Was it one of the newer ones? Nope. Did it have stainless steel appliances? Nope. But I contend it was the equivalent of what you'd find in Manhattan for $2500+.

Also NYC doesn't have that much that Houston doesn't have. I'm also from here though, and think hot summers are way better than cold winters.

And my best friend just bought a 4-bedroom house in the Heights for $510K. So it definitely can be done.

I live in the Heights (very nice garage apartment in a brand new house, $850/month). I've seen it done many times. For less than that if you are willing to buy on the fringes were it will be nice in a year or two.

Most of my friends and acquaintances in biglaw, or during their SA's, simply didn't want to do the leg work required to find a good deal so they ended up at one of the brand new complex's that are ridiculously overpriced. There's absolutely no reason to pay anymore than 1.5k/month unless you just want to throw away money.

[emkay625]

If we are defining 500K as affordable then we have to stop this right now. I guess technically maybe you can do that on a big law salary but for someone who has student loan debt and has to pay property taxes, for a car, etc. and will probably only last on that big law salary for a few years doing that as a junior associate seems kinda nutso to me.

IMO, when people talk about snagging that 4000 square foot house/wife combo in TX they are talking about something that is like 200-300K. You can probably get it but you're never not going to be in traffic if you are working in downtown Houston.

I fully concede that you can probably find something in the Heights for 500K but I think that cuts against the "ZOMG So affordable!" mantra that TLS has for TX in general.

Again, yes, of course it's cheaper. Is it like you're making 100-150K more a year vs NYC? No.

I think it's affordable in comparison to NYC. A four-bedroom apartment in Manhattan at the quality of house you can buy in the Heights would be upwards of 2 million. Probably more. A big law associate in NYC could never buy something like that.

[emkay625]

If we are defining 500K as affordable then we have to stop this right now. I guess technically maybe you can do that on a big law salary but for someone who has student loan debt and has to pay property taxes, for a car, etc. and will probably only last on that big law salary for a few years doing that as a junior associate seems kinda nutso to me.

IMO, when people talk about snagging that 4000 square foot house/wife combo in TX they are talking about something that is like 200-300K. You can probably get it but you're never not going to be in traffic if you are working in downtown Houston.

I fully concede that you can probably find something in the Heights for 500K but I think that cuts against the "ZOMG So affordable!" mantra that TLS has for TX in general.

Again, yes, of course it's cheaper. Is it like you're making 100-150K more a year vs NYC? No.

Also what is a house/wife combo? And how does one find a woman that large? : D

[Anonymous User]

I'll first state my bias here--I am a junior level associate at the Dallas V&E office. I first looked at doing corporate but decided to do a different section but am relatively familiar with the corporate section.

I wholly believe your decision comes down to personal priorities and any one-answer-fits-all response is suspect. I've known close friends who graduated HYS and had V3 firm offers but ended up working firms in Vermont and Maine. For them--that was the right decision. For others--it may not have been.

For me, the decision between V10 NYC firms and top TX firms in general and VE in particular was the following: (i) quality of life, (ii) cost of living, and (iii) post-law career options. Things that did not matter to me but may matter to others were (i) overall prestige and (ii) affinity for NYC.

QOL - My NYC-based friends simply do not have the QOL I have here. I tend to work 50-55 hours a week (sometimes more, sometimes less). I rarely work weekends. My section is pretty special in this regard, but the corporate associates (especially first and second years) have it relatively easy as well. My NYC friends, however, are working 65-80 weeks. There seems to be a lot more pressure for high billable hours with them. For me, quality of life (mixed, of course, with great work and solid salary) was a priority. Others don't mind and even crave the NYC firm lifestyle.

COL - Yes. $160k goes exponentially further in Dallas than NYC. A recent comparison on a cost of living calculator provided by CNN Money showed that you have to make ~$280k living in Brooklyn or ~$370k living in Manhattan to live the lifestyle you live in Dallas on $160k. I have loans to payoff from law school and my ability to save and live comfortably was a big factor in my decision. Long term I will likely move from Dallas, but in the meantime it is sure nice to save.

Post-law career options - I could have been in a solid position in this regard whether I worked in NYC or Dallas. Dallas has a great banking sector and of course energy is huge here. The top firms here are very well respected nationally. V&E is ranked as the #1 energy firm nationwide and #13 in project finance (at least in several well-regarded reports) and BB and Akins and others are ranked high as well. I did not want to take a TX job at the risk of losing prestige in the legal field. Of course, V&E and BB won't hold the name recognition that Wachtell does among lay people--but honestly--few lay persons even know Wachtell much less other firms.

Non-factor (NYC) - I went to law school close to NYC. I was able to hangout there for 3 years and I knew long ago that while I enjoyed weekends in the city, long-term living there simply was not for me. So NYC had no draw on me as a living destination.

The above is just a broad stroke summation of what influenced my decision. For me, coming to Dallas made sense and has been an amazing fit for the short term. I have saved a lot of money, I live a pretty easy-going life, and I have amazing career options. However, the decision is a personalized one and you should evaluate it as such.

If you have any specific questions, please feel free to ask, and best of luck in your search! You have great options and will do great no matter what you choose.

***P.S. Excuse any spelling/grammar mistakes. At work and don't feel like re-reading to check***

[Anonymous User]

P.S.S Did not read all the posts but came across a no-offer comment on the first page of this forum. I am unsure of the total no offers in Houston (there summer size is a lot larger, ~50is I believe). In Dallas I don't believe there has been a no-offer in 4-5 years with class sizes of about ~15. I could be wrong.

Unsure of no-offer rates at other locations. My general understanding at least at V&E is if you do a halfway decent job during your summer year and don't light the building on fire you are good to go. The firm seems to just look for competent to-be attorneys who get along well with their section.

[BigZuck]

If we are defining 500K as affordable then we have to stop this right now. I guess technically maybe you can do that on a big law salary but for someone who has student loan debt and has to pay property taxes, for a car, etc. and will probably only last on that big law salary for a few years doing that as a junior associate seems kinda nutso to me.

IMO, when people talk about snagging that 4000 square foot house/wife combo in TX they are talking about something that is like 200-300K. You can probably get it but you're never not going to be in traffic if you are working in downtown Houston.

I fully concede that you can probably find something in the Heights for 500K but I think that cuts against the "ZOMG So affordable!" mantra that TLS has for TX in general.

Again, yes, of course it's cheaper. Is it like you're making 100-150K more a year vs NYC? No.

I think it's affordable in comparison to NYC. A four-bedroom apartment in Manhattan at the quality of house you can buy in the Heights would be upwards of 2 million. Probably more. A big law associate in NYC could never buy something like that.

Sure

People on TLS like to paint TX as this utopia where you make (effectively) twice as much in big law as you would in NY big law. They point to whack cost of living calculators as evidence of that. That's silly. Yes, it's cheaper. But not as much as they paint it to be. The biggest difference is taxes and rent. But that's not making up a 100-150K difference. Not even when you factor in cheaper food, entertainment, etc. And especially not when you factor in the cost of driving, parking, etc. And I'm not convinced that the Fulbrights or even V&Es of the world are paying the same salaries/bonuses in real dollars. The internet suggests that they don't, but obviously I have no firsthand experience with that. Hopefully the new V&E poster will chime in there.

If people want to throw in factors like being able to buy a place of your own that's fine. But that has its own cost too. You either pay out the butt to live in the Heights, or one day you wake up and realize you're fighting against all the other horrible Houston drivers and wasting at least an hour of your life each day to crash at your McMansion in one of the many Lands after working for 14 hours. That's worth it for some people but it might not be worth it for others. And maybe it's different in Dallas, I don't know.

I think if the OP prefers Dallas then he/she should start their career off in Dallas. But they won't effectively be making 2X the money. That's silliness and, at least from my perspective, doesn't align with my own experience or logic or math.

I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse, if you guys want to shout me down then fine, you're right and I'm wrong. I concede, you guys win.

[blackmooncreeping]

If we are defining 500K as affordable then we have to stop this right now. I guess technically maybe you can do that on a big law salary but for someone who has student loan debt and has to pay property taxes, for a car, etc. and will probably only last on that big law salary for a few years doing that as a junior associate seems kinda nutso to me.

IMO, when people talk about snagging that 4000 square foot house/wife combo in TX they are talking about something that is like 200-300K. You can probably get it but you're never not going to be in traffic if you are working in downtown Houston.

I fully concede that you can probably find something in the Heights for 500K but I think that cuts against the "ZOMG So affordable!" mantra that TLS has for TX in general.

Again, yes, of course it's cheaper. Is it like you're making 100-150K more a year vs NYC? No.

I think it's affordable in comparison to NYC. A four-bedroom apartment in Manhattan at the quality of house you can buy in the Heights would be upwards of 2 million. Probably more. A big law associate in NYC could never buy something like that.

Sure

People on TLS like to paint TX as this utopia where you make (effectively) twice as much in big law as you would in NY big law. They point to whack cost of living calculators as evidence of that. That's silly. Yes, it's cheaper. But not as much as they paint it to be. The biggest difference is taxes and rent. But that's not making up a 100-150K difference. Not even when you factor in cheaper food, entertainment, etc. And especially not when you factor in the cost of driving, parking, etc. And I'm not convinced that the Fulbrights or even V&Es of the world are paying the same salaries/bonuses in real dollars. The internet suggests that they don't, but obviously I have no firsthand experience with that. Hopefully the new V&E poster will chime in there.

If people want to throw in factors like being able to buy a place of your own that's fine. But that has its own cost too. You either pay out the butt to live in the Heights, or one day you wake up and realize you're fighting against all the other horrible Houston drivers and wasting at least an hour of your life each day to crash at your McMansion in one of the many Lands after working for 14 hours. That's worth it for some people but it might not be worth it for others. And maybe it's different in Dallas, I don't know.

I think if the OP prefers Dallas then he/she should start their career off in Dallas. But they won't effectively be making 2X the money. That's silliness and, at least from my perspective, doesn't align with my own experience or logic or math.

I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse, if you guys want to shout me down then fine, you're right and I'm wrong. I concede, you guys win.

I would hardly qualify $850/month 10 min. from downtown in the Heights paying out the butt...nor would I consider buying a house for 300K in an area where if current development trends continue will be very very nice paying out the butt. Not everyone's cup of tea though I suppose

[BigZuck]

If we are defining 500K as affordable then we have to stop this right now. I guess technically maybe you can do that on a big law salary but for someone who has student loan debt and has to pay property taxes, for a car, etc. and will probably only last on that big law salary for a few years doing that as a junior associate seems kinda nutso to me.

IMO, when people talk about snagging that 4000 square foot house/wife combo in TX they are talking about something that is like 200-300K. You can probably get it but you're never not going to be in traffic if you are working in downtown Houston.

I fully concede that you can probably find something in the Heights for 500K but I think that cuts against the "ZOMG So affordable!" mantra that TLS has for TX in general.

Again, yes, of course it's cheaper. Is it like you're making 100-150K more a year vs NYC? No.

I think it's affordable in comparison to NYC. A four-bedroom apartment in Manhattan at the quality of house you can buy in the Heights would be upwards of 2 million. Probably more. A big law associate in NYC could never buy something like that.

Sure

People on TLS like to paint TX as this utopia where you make (effectively) twice as much in big law as you would in NY big law. They point to whack cost of living calculators as evidence of that. That's silly. Yes, it's cheaper. But not as much as they paint it to be. The biggest difference is taxes and rent. But that's not making up a 100-150K difference. Not even when you factor in cheaper food, entertainment, etc. And especially not when you factor in the cost of driving, parking, etc. And I'm not convinced that the Fulbrights or even V&Es of the world are paying the same salaries/bonuses in real dollars. The internet suggests that they don't, but obviously I have no firsthand experience with that. Hopefully the new V&E poster will chime in there.

If people want to throw in factors like being able to buy a place of your own that's fine. But that has its own cost too. You either pay out the butt to live in the Heights, or one day you wake up and realize you're fighting against all the other horrible Houston drivers and wasting at least an hour of your life each day to crash at your McMansion in one of the many Lands after working for 14 hours. That's worth it for some people but it might not be worth it for others. And maybe it's different in Dallas, I don't know.

I think if the OP prefers Dallas then he/she should start their career off in Dallas. But they won't effectively be making 2X the money. That's silliness and, at least from my perspective, doesn't align with my own experience or logic or math.

I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse, if you guys want to shout me down then fine, you're right and I'm wrong. I concede, you guys win.

I would hardly qualify $850/month 10 min. from downtown in the Heights paying out the butt...nor would I consider buying a house for 300K in an area where if current development trends continue will be very very nice paying out the butt. Not everyone's cup of tea though I suppose

You're somehow mixing my butt paying point up with a discussion of cost of rent, and this is even after I conceded that everyone else in this thread is right and I'm wrong.

Please do PM me the 300K very very nice houses though, as someone who will likely be looking to buy in Houston in the not super distant future that would be really helpful.

[blackmooncreeping]

If we are defining 500K as affordable then we have to stop this right now. I guess technically maybe you can do that on a big law salary but for someone who has student loan debt and has to pay property taxes, for a car, etc. and will probably only last on that big law salary for a few years doing that as a junior associate seems kinda nutso to me.

IMO, when people talk about snagging that 4000 square foot house/wife combo in TX they are talking about something that is like 200-300K. You can probably get it but you're never not going to be in traffic if you are working in downtown Houston.

I fully concede that you can probably find something in the Heights for 500K but I think that cuts against the "ZOMG So affordable!" mantra that TLS has for TX in general.

Again, yes, of course it's cheaper. Is it like you're making 100-150K more a year vs NYC? No.

I think it's affordable in comparison to NYC. A four-bedroom apartment in Manhattan at the quality of house you can buy in the Heights would be upwards of 2 million. Probably more. A big law associate in NYC could never buy something like that.

Sure

People on TLS like to paint TX as this utopia where you make (effectively) twice as much in big law as you would in NY big law. They point to whack cost of living calculators as evidence of that. That's silly. Yes, it's cheaper. But not as much as they paint it to be. The biggest difference is taxes and rent. But that's not making up a 100-150K difference. Not even when you factor in cheaper food, entertainment, etc. And especially not when you factor in the cost of driving, parking, etc. And I'm not convinced that the Fulbrights or even V&Es of the world are paying the same salaries/bonuses in real dollars. The internet suggests that they don't, but obviously I have no firsthand experience with that. Hopefully the new V&E poster will chime in there.

If people want to throw in factors like being able to buy a place of your own that's fine. But that has its own cost too. You either pay out the butt to live in the Heights, or one day you wake up and realize you're fighting against all the other horrible Houston drivers and wasting at least an hour of your life each day to crash at your McMansion in one of the many Lands after working for 14 hours. That's worth it for some people but it might not be worth it for others. And maybe it's different in Dallas, I don't know.

I think if the OP prefers Dallas then he/she should start their career off in Dallas. But they won't effectively be making 2X the money. That's silliness and, at least from my perspective, doesn't align with my own experience or logic or math.

I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse, if you guys want to shout me down then fine, you're right and I'm wrong. I concede, you guys win.

I would hardly qualify $850/month 10 min. from downtown in the Heights paying out the butt...nor would I consider buying a house for 300K in an area where if current development trends continue will be very very nice paying out the butt. Not everyone's cup of tea though I suppose

You're somehow mixing my butt paying point up with a discussion of cost of rent, and this is even after I conceded that everyone else in this thread is right and I'm wrong.

Please do PM me the 300K very very nice houses though, as someone who will likely be looking to buy in Houston in the not super distant future that would be really helpful.

Cant tell if you're being sarcastic but I didn't say they were very very nice houses. I said you can get a house for 300K in an area that will be very very nice if current trends/development holds.

[Anonymous User]

If we are defining 500K as affordable then we have to stop this right now. I guess technically maybe you can do that on a big law salary but for someone who has student loan debt and has to pay property taxes, for a car, etc. and will probably only last on that big law salary for a few years doing that as a junior associate seems kinda nutso to me.

IMO, when people talk about snagging that 4000 square foot house/wife combo in TX they are talking about something that is like 200-300K. You can probably get it but you're never not going to be in traffic if you are working in downtown Houston.

I fully concede that you can probably find something in the Heights for 500K but I think that cuts against the "ZOMG So affordable!" mantra that TLS has for TX in general.

Again, yes, of course it's cheaper. Is it like you're making 100-150K more a year vs NYC? No.

I think it's affordable in comparison to NYC. A four-bedroom apartment in Manhattan at the quality of house you can buy in the Heights would be upwards of 2 million. Probably more. A big law associate in NYC could never buy something like that.

Sure

People on TLS like to paint TX as this utopia where you make (effectively) twice as much in big law as you would in NY big law. They point to whack cost of living calculators as evidence of that. That's silly. Yes, it's cheaper. But not as much as they paint it to be. The biggest difference is taxes and rent. But that's not making up a 100-150K difference. Not even when you factor in cheaper food, entertainment, etc. And especially not when you factor in the cost of driving, parking, etc. And I'm not convinced that the Fulbrights or even V&Es of the world are paying the same salaries/bonuses in real dollars. The internet suggests that they don't, but obviously I have no firsthand experience with that. Hopefully the new V&E poster will chime in there.

If people want to throw in factors like being able to buy a place of your own that's fine. But that has its own cost too. You either pay out the butt to live in the Heights, or one day you wake up and realize you're fighting against all the other horrible Houston drivers and wasting at least an hour of your life each day to crash at your McMansion in one of the many Lands after working for 14 hours. That's worth it for some people but it might not be worth it for others. And maybe it's different in Dallas, I don't know.

I think if the OP prefers Dallas then he/she should start their career off in Dallas. But they won't effectively be making 2X the money. That's silliness and, at least from my perspective, doesn't align with my own experience or logic or math.

I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse, if you guys want to shout me down then fine, you're right and I'm wrong. I concede, you guys win.

Not the V&E anon, but V&E does pay lockstep base: http://www.vault.com/company-profiles/l ... rview.aspx

Bonuses are a different story. 3 bonus tiers at 2000, 2150, and 2300. You needed 2300 to get DPW the most recent year.

[Anonymous User]

P.S.S Did not read all the posts but came across a no-offer comment on the first page of this forum. I am unsure of the total no offers in Houston (there summer size is a lot larger, ~50is I believe). In Dallas I don't believe there has been a no-offer in 4-5 years with class sizes of about ~15. I could be wrong.

Unsure of no-offer rates at other locations. My general understanding at least at V&E is if you do a halfway decent job during your summer year and don't light the building on fire you are good to go. The firm seems to just look for competent to-be attorneys who get along well with their section.

You are right about Dallas, which along with DC and NY seem to be consistently 100% for offers. Houston is a different story. There have been 5-10 no offers in the Houston office in 5 of the past 6 years.

[Anonymous User]

You are right about Dallas, which along with DC and NY seem to be consistently 100% for offers. Houston is a different story. There have been 5-10 no offers in the Houston office in 5 of the past 6 years.

Thanks for updating. Still (and this may be due to my ignorance re: market for no offers) 5-10 no-offers out of the roughly 200-250 people that must have gone through the Houston summer program over the last five years seems like a low figure. Basically a 2.5-5% no-offer rate. I would imagine that these no-offers were only extended to people who really, really did not care about getting hired or lacked basic social etiquette. That is my general understanding, but perhaps you can add more insight. Thanks!

[BigZuck]

If we are defining 500K as affordable then we have to stop this right now. I guess technically maybe you can do that on a big law salary but for someone who has student loan debt and has to pay property taxes, for a car, etc. and will probably only last on that big law salary for a few years doing that as a junior associate seems kinda nutso to me.

IMO, when people talk about snagging that 4000 square foot house/wife combo in TX they are talking about something that is like 200-300K. You can probably get it but you're never not going to be in traffic if you are working in downtown Houston.

I fully concede that you can probably find something in the Heights for 500K but I think that cuts against the "ZOMG So affordable!" mantra that TLS has for TX in general.

Again, yes, of course it's cheaper. Is it like you're making 100-150K more a year vs NYC? No.

I think it's affordable in comparison to NYC. A four-bedroom apartment in Manhattan at the quality of house you can buy in the Heights would be upwards of 2 million. Probably more. A big law associate in NYC could never buy something like that.

Sure

People on TLS like to paint TX as this utopia where you make (effectively) twice as much in big law as you would in NY big law. They point to whack cost of living calculators as evidence of that. That's silly. Yes, it's cheaper. But not as much as they paint it to be. The biggest difference is taxes and rent. But that's not making up a 100-150K difference. Not even when you factor in cheaper food, entertainment, etc. And especially not when you factor in the cost of driving, parking, etc. And I'm not convinced that the Fulbrights or even V&Es of the world are paying the same salaries/bonuses in real dollars. The internet suggests that they don't, but obviously I have no firsthand experience with that. Hopefully the new V&E poster will chime in there.

If people want to throw in factors like being able to buy a place of your own that's fine. But that has its own cost too. You either pay out the butt to live in the Heights, or one day you wake up and realize you're fighting against all the other horrible Houston drivers and wasting at least an hour of your life each day to crash at your McMansion in one of the many Lands after working for 14 hours. That's worth it for some people but it might not be worth it for others. And maybe it's different in Dallas, I don't know.

I think if the OP prefers Dallas then he/she should start their career off in Dallas. But they won't effectively be making 2X the money. That's silliness and, at least from my perspective, doesn't align with my own experience or logic or math.

I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse, if you guys want to shout me down then fine, you're right and I'm wrong. I concede, you guys win.

Not the V&E anon, but V&E does pay lockstep base: http://www.vault.com/company-profiles/l ... rview.aspx

Bonuses are a different story. 3 bonus tiers at 2000, 2150, and 2300. You needed 2300 to get DPW the most recent year.

Yeah, that's kind of the sense I got through googling. People say you make the same but 160K base being the same in both places doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. Especially the more senior you get, the more the pay can suffer compared to "Top NYC" firms (although maybe if you make it to year 5+ you're more likely to be the partner gunning kind and more likely to put in the 2300 hour years? Might that be right? Or do you tend to work a little less because you delegate a lot more?). Again, I don't have any first hand experience here and it almost certainly doesn't make a ton of difference for the OP who likely won't last that long in big law anyway regardless of what market they work in.

[Anonymous User]

You are right about Dallas, which along with DC and NY seem to be consistently 100% for offers. Houston is a different story. There have been 5-10 no offers in the Houston office in 5 of the past 6 years.

Thanks for updating. Still (and this may be due to my ignorance re: market for no offers) 5-10 no-offers out of the roughly 200-250 people that must have gone through the Houston summer program over the last five years seems like a low figure. Basically a 2.5-5% no-offer rate. I would imagine that these no-offers were only extended to people who really, really did not care about getting hired or lacked basic social etiquette. That is my general understanding, but perhaps you can add more insight. Thanks!

Sorry, I meant 5-10 each year. And remember that even though V&E has 50+ total in Houston, 10-15 of those are usually 1Ls. Meaning the offer rate ends up being in the 30-34/40 range on average, which is around 80%. It seems the Dallas office is very careful about keeping the summer class smaller so everybody can get an offer. Houston has never been 100% and seems to consistently slash 5+ SAs each year aside from 2014, which had a small class and high offer rate - 28/30. The data just doesn't support that being a social etiquette or laziness thing.

Don't have the numbers from this year in Houston but have been told it was bad - over 5 2Ls and 1 1L… I'm sure the slowdown in O&G hurt

[BigZuck]

You are right about Dallas, which along with DC and NY seem to be consistently 100% for offers. Houston is a different story. There have been 5-10 no offers in the Houston office in 5 of the past 6 years.

Thanks for updating. Still (and this may be due to my ignorance re: market for no offers) 5-10 no-offers out of the roughly 200-250 people that must have gone through the Houston summer program over the last five years seems like a low figure. Basically a 2.5-5% no-offer rate. I would imagine that these no-offers were only extended to people who really, really did not care about getting hired or lacked basic social etiquette. That is my general understanding, but perhaps you can add more insight. Thanks!

Isn't that person saying there are 5-10 no offers every year?

I think you're way overstating how much SAs are to blame for getting no offered. We always chalk it up as "LOL, it's Texas and people split, whatcha gonna do???" but I personally know people who have been screwed by this kind of stuff. It's really not ok IMO.

[Anonymous User]

You are right about Dallas, which along with DC and NY seem to be consistently 100% for offers. Houston is a different story. There have been 5-10 no offers in the Houston office in 5 of the past 6 years.

Thanks for updating. Still (and this may be due to my ignorance re: market for no offers) 5-10 no-offers out of the roughly 200-250 people that must have gone through the Houston summer program over the last five years seems like a low figure. Basically a 2.5-5% no-offer rate. I would imagine that these no-offers were only extended to people who really, really did not care about getting hired or lacked basic social etiquette. That is my general understanding, but perhaps you can add more insight. Thanks!

Isn't that person saying there are 5-10 no offers every year?

I think you're way overstating how much SAs are to blame for getting no offered. We always chalk it up as "LOL, it's Texas and people split, whatcha gonna do???" but I personally know people who have been screwed by this kind of stuff. It's really not ok IMO.

Yes, one of my good friends was blindsided with a no offer for some bullshit reason. Wasn't the only one either. This is just how some Texas firms operate, not everyone has the option of splitting with so many firms being first half only these days

[Anonymous User]

I've done Biglaw in NYC and moved to Houston (went in house). My spouse does Biglaw in Texas, so I have a decent hours comparison.

Hours: 2,000 billable hours is 2,000 billable hours no matter where you work. The only difference is that Texas tends to be a bit more "early to bed early to rise" culturally.

Quality of work: Can't compare directly, but I can't imagine it being substantially different. The only major difference is you will have more oil and gas clients in Houston and more financial clients in NYC. That changes the legal issues to an extent, but they are no less sophisticated.

Lifestyle: Depends what you value. NYC was kind of fun for a while (when I had time to enjoy it), but it got old for me. I could never get used to sirens blaring at 2AM and the crush of people on the subway every mornings. In some ways, Houston is better. Way easier to go to jones hall for a Houston Symphony concert than Carnegie Hall for a New York Phil. Quality is indistinguishable even to me who played in orchestras through college. Art museums aren't quite as mind blowing in Houston, but Houston actually has a pretty good art and theater scene. Driving and the bar scene is kind of a drag, but I've never been a huge partier. I would prefer to just invite some friends over for beers (way easier to do with a real house)

Tax: Even with real estate taxes on a $500k house, Texas is better by about $5k than NYC for me.

Housing: Housing in NYC blows. Full stop. It's utterly depressing when you look at $2 million apartments that aren't even that nice. Then you look at what you can actually afford and really get depressed. I was living in a place that was substantially worse than my Junior year college dorm when I was making $185k a year. It was madness. It's also a mad dash to actually find something. You won't buy for a loonnngg time if ever, which means a constant threat of housing instability if the landlord decides to turn the place into condos or double the rent. If you do buy, you will end up paying in fees what many people in Houston pay in rent. Housing in Houston, while getting more expensive, really isn't bad at all. You don't even want a 4,000sq ft exurban house straight out of law school unless you already have 3 kids or something. Biglaw in Houston means a really nice loft or townhouse within 15 minutes of work unless McMansions are your thing. If you are still in biglaw 10 years down the line, you can afford a big house even inside the loop.