Biglaw associates: are any of us actually happy? Forum

[krads153]

Try to bill (let's split the difference) 2,400 hours as a first and second year associate and see how that goes. There will be many hours in the office you don't bill. There will be many days where you show up early so you can go on that date/out with friends/see your family and you get hit with the 6:30pm assignment which needs to get done ASAP (bonus points if you turned the work in weeks ago to someone who got to it last minute only to ping you with revisions to ruin your night).

Don't get me wrong, it's not totally unrealistic that you can balance some things with a biglaw job. But as a summer associate you did not see the reality of the job. My perspective as a summer associate was nothing like what I experienced in my first years on the job, it just is not comparable and you cannot "see" what associate life is like, you have to experience it.

FWIW, I working as a summer just as much as the associates were -- was billing at a ~2,600 hour pace. It's a lot of work, and it definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as our filing deadline approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights, and I had at least one solid recovery day most weekends. You don't have to completely sacrifice your family to work 65 hour weeks. 80+ hours is a different story, but biglaw does not seem to require 80+ hour weeks, at least outside of NYC.

you are delusional if you think working those hours for a year as a full time associate is the same as working over a summer

I'm also not sure if this is a joke. I've pulled 2200+ years, and that sucked enough. I also worked more weekends than not in any given year and that sucks.

How is working 8 am to 12 am every day fine even if you get dinner with your family? Sorry but biglaw associates don't get paid enough to consistently work 16 hour days, especially not in a high COL place. I'd say 12 hour days on average are normal, but 16 day after day is fine? That sucks IMO.

[handsonthewheel]

FWIW, I working as a summer just as much as the associates were -- was billing at a ~2,600 hour pace. It's a lot of work, and it definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as deadlines approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights, and I had at least one solid recovery day most weekends. You don't have to completely sacrifice your family to work 65 hour weeks. 80+ hours is a different story, but biglaw does not seem to require 80+ hour weeks, at least outside of NYC.

The demands placed on summer associates are intentionally less than those placed on first year associates. Even if you are one of the SA's who get saddled with more work and more of a "real" experience, at core the associates and partners are treating you like a summer associate. As an associate who has done work with the summer associate programs, I can tell you that we are reminded again and again of the boundaries we need to have with the summer associates with respect to work, including not dumping late night work, deadline work, boring work and other stressors on you.

The summer associate experience is almost universally different than associate experience.

There is also the psychological piece where you realize there is no change on the horizon. You'll have a 300 hour month and want to die, and the downtime you look forward to is just getting back on the pace to do 2,600 hours. You will continue to miss out on things with friends and family, even if you didn't miss out on much in a few months (surprise, more things happen in years than do in months).

Not saying your experience is invalid, you definitely worked FAR more than I did as a summer associate (and actually on that point, if you had any control to work less, you did that really, really wrong). But your experience as a summer is going to be different.

[krads153]

^A 300 month is terrible, and I have had friends who pulled multiple 300+ months in a row (like 3 in a row)...but that's usually in the extreme, and it's usually wrecked their health in serious ways. If you're legit billing 300 a month then you're probably sleeping like 3 hours a night.

[Desert Fox]

[Desert Fox]

[handsonthewheel]

• Even if you got real work as a summer--you probably didn't
• and even if you got enough work to make you work 200 hour months--you didn't
• and even if they treated you like an associate (instead of using kids gloves)--- they didn't

you only did it for like 2 months straight and you had a clear end date. A lot of newbies actually find it fun for a while. The work is new and seems important and exciting. But that feeling wears off right quick. Everyone is singing a different tune after 6 months. The glamor wears off and you realize you at work til 11pm making--literally--the page someone signs in a contract while your wife's tindering with chad.

Never met a Chad or a signature page that I've liked.

[kcdc1]

Not saying your experience is invalid, you definitely worked FAR more than I did as a summer associate (and actually on that point, if you had any control to work less, you did that really, really wrong). But your experience as a summer is going to be different.

My experience was certainly atypical. I was placed on a short-staffed team, and I wound up taking over one section of the litigation that had a timeline that almost exactly overlapped with my SA term. That said, my point here is not that I worked a lot as a summer -- it's only to say that working a lot of hours is typical of American professional careers, and that it does not necessarily require sacrificing all other aspects of your life (though the hours will certainly take a toll).

[5ky]

• Even if you got real work as a summer--you probably didn't
• and even if you got enough work to make you work 200 hour months--you didn't
• and even if they treated you like an associate (instead of using kids gloves)--- they didn't

you only did it for like 2 months straight and you had a clear end date. A lot of newbies actually find it fun for a while. The work is new and seems important and exciting. But that feeling wears off right quick. Everyone is singing a different tune after 6 months. The glamor wears off and you realize you at work til 11pm making--literally--the page someone signs in a contract while your wife's tindering with chad.

It's the knowing that you get to stop in a handful of weeks and have 3LOL that's the biggest one imo. Working 16 hour days for a few weeks knowing it'll all be over soon (literally, since you get to leave the job on good terms) is so much different than working 16 hours a day, knowing that the next holiday/vacation is 4+ months off (and you might have to work through it anyway) and that you have no idea if/when it will let up. It's very demoralizing.

[krads153]

^ You may not be sacrificing "all" other aspects of your life - but if you're working 16 hour days all the time, your family probably hates you or doesn't care, you probably look like shit, you're probably gaining weight, and you're probably prematurely aging (wrinkles, etc.).

[handsonthewheel]

• Even if you got real work as a summer--you probably didn't
• and even if you got enough work to make you work 200 hour months--you didn't
• and even if they treated you like an associate (instead of using kids gloves)--- they didn't

you only did it for like 2 months straight and you had a clear end date. A lot of newbies actually find it fun for a while. The work is new and seems important and exciting. But that feeling wears off right quick. Everyone is singing a different tune after 6 months. The glamor wears off and you realize you at work til 11pm making--literally--the page someone signs in a contract while your wife's tindering with chad.

It's the knowing that you get to stop in a handful of weeks and have 3LOL that's the biggest one imo. Working 16 hour days for a few weeks knowing it'll all be over soon (literally, since you get to leave the job on good terms) is so much different than working 16 hours a day, knowing that the next holiday/vacation is 4+ months off (and you might have to work through it anyway) and that you have no idea if/when it will let up. It's very demoralizing.

The persistence of how the job always comes before your life is atrocious.

There are constant (and I mean constant) reminders that your life is subject to anyone who knows your email address. Downtime is really just hoping someone doesn't email you something.

[Desert Fox]

[gk101]

back to the original topic, I genuinely enjoy what I do most days and work with some great people (relatively speaking) in my practice group. That being said, I also don't like the person I have become in the last 3 years of working biglaw. I don't go to the gym for months at a time, eat unhealhy food on a regular basis, am always on edge and stressed about some work-related matter even on off days, have not kept up with any of my pre-law school interests, etc. I know all the above things are in my control but I also know I am not capable of balancing it all.

I had a major health scare earlier this year directly tied to stress and that was the last straw for me. I have stopped caring about hours or advancing within the firm. Now I am just trying to position myself to pay off my loans ASAP (should be done by February next year) and have the best shot at moving in-house doing the work I enjoy without the associated stress

[071816]

while your wife's tindering with chad.

LMAO

[gk101]

I've worked 450 hours in june/july and the absolute worst part for me is the constant work hanging over my head. In june I literally worked Jun1-Jun27 without a day off. But even though I had weekends in July, you can't enjoy them when you have to procrastinate to get any time off. I've had like a weeks worth of overdo work since june 1 and its just fucking awful.

yeah those heavy months are just soul crushing. just being in a constant state of panic that a senior associate doesn't ask about some project that I am putting off because I have this other more urgent assignment to finish off

when I was working those ridiculous hours for extended periods of time, I wouldn't even have the energy or desire to get out of my bed on the rare off days. I would just order in pizza and watch netflix all day trying to forget about all the work I still needed to do but still checking my email every hour or so just in case I needed to go in

the light months were kinda chill tho but not enough to offset the shitty ones

[A. Nony Mouse]

^ You may not be sacrificing "all" other aspects of your life - but if you're working 16 hour days all the time, your family probably hates you or doesn't care, you probably look like shit, you're probably gaining weight, and you're probably prematurely aging (wrinkles, etc.).

I know I don't work biglaw hours (at all), but I've had some weeks prepping for/in trial where it comes close, and the worst thing is that I become horribly selfish. When I do get a free moment all I want to do is sleep or veg in front of the TV or mayyyyybe get in a quick workout. I don't really want to pay attention to anyone else or think about what they want. In short, I become a terrible person. If this went on for the lengths it does in biglaw, I can't see how anyone could live with me. (Maybe you get used it it or everyone in biglaw just has more energy than I do.)

[dixiecupdrinking]

I love "I worked 8 am to midnight but still managed to find time to eat dinner with my family!" Then you didn't work until midnight.

[UnicornHunter]

I love "I worked 8 am to midnight but still managed to find time to eat dinner with my family!" Then you didn't work until midnight.

Glad you pointed that out, it was bothering me.

[kcdc1]

I love "I worked 8 am to midnight but still managed to find time to eat dinner with my family!" Then you didn't work until midnight.

Let's avoid turning the thread into a referendum on the number of hours I worked as a summer. My point was only that working 65 hours per week requires sacrifices, but it does not mandate that your life must fall apart around you.

As to your specific point, my original quote was: "It definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as our filing deadline approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights." I obviously did not have dinner with my family on those days where I worked 16 hours.

[Effingham]

while your wife's tindering with chad.

LMAO

If only there was some way to make America great again...

[Anonymous User]

while your wife's tindering with chad.

LMAO

If only there was some way to make America great again...

#trumpforpresident #buildthewall #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

[Desert Fox]

[los blancos]

^ You may not be sacrificing "all" other aspects of your life - but if you're working 16 hour days all the time, your family probably hates you or doesn't care, you probably look like shit, you're probably gaining weight, and you're probably prematurely aging (wrinkles, etc.).

I know I don't work biglaw hours (at all), but I've had some weeks prepping for/in trial where it comes close, and the worst thing is that I become horribly selfish. When I do get a free moment all I want to do is sleep or veg in front of the TV or mayyyyybe get in a quick workout. I don't really want to pay attention to anyone else or think about what they want. In short, I become a terrible person. If this went on for the lengths it does in biglaw, I can't see how anyone could live with me. (Maybe you get used it it or everyone in biglaw just has more energy than I do.)

I get like that too. HAving to take the trash out feels oppressive when you work every day.

I do not pull my weight around the house and I feel terrible for it.

[dixiecupdrinking]

I love "I worked 8 am to midnight but still managed to find time to eat dinner with my family!" Then you didn't work until midnight.

Let's avoid turning the thread into a referendum on the number of hours I worked as a summer. My point was only that working 65 hours per week requires sacrifices, but it does not mandate that your life must fall apart around you.

As to your specific point, my original quote was: "It definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as our filing deadline approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights." I obviously did not have dinner with my family on those days where I worked 16 hours.

You are making it a referendum about the hours you worked as a summer by suggesting that you are in a position to tell actual associates what it's like to be an associate.

[Johann]

^ You may not be sacrificing "all" other aspects of your life - but if you're working 16 hour days all the time, your family probably hates you or doesn't care, you probably look like shit, you're probably gaining weight, and you're probably prematurely aging (wrinkles, etc.).

I know I don't work biglaw hours (at all), but I've had some weeks prepping for/in trial where it comes close, and the worst thing is that I become horribly selfish. When I do get a free moment all I want to do is sleep or veg in front of the TV or mayyyyybe get in a quick workout. I don't really want to pay attention to anyone else or think about what they want. In short, I become a terrible person. If this went on for the lengths it does in biglaw, I can't see how anyone could live with me. (Maybe you get used it it or everyone in biglaw just has more energy than I do.)

I get like that too. HAving to take the trash out feels oppressive when you work every day.

yeah i stop asking my SO how her day was if I know its going to be bad because I have absolutely 0 energy to listen to anyones bullshit.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

I love "I worked 8 am to midnight but still managed to find time to eat dinner with my family!" Then you didn't work until midnight.

Let's avoid turning the thread into a referendum on the number of hours I worked as a summer. My point was only that working 65 hours per week requires sacrifices, but it does not mandate that your life must fall apart around you.

As to your specific point, my original quote was: "It definitely sucked to work 8 AM to 12 AM day after day as our filing deadline approached. That said, I had dinner with my family most nights." I obviously did not have dinner with my family on those days where I worked 16 hours.

You are making it a referendum about the hours you worked as a summer by suggesting that you are in a position to tell actual associates what it's like to be an associate.

This is a terrible misread of what kcdc1 is saying.

The fact of the matter is that TLS loves it's melodrama, and the view on here is unbelievably skewed in favor of associates that want to whine.

I'm on track to bill 270 hours his month;it will be my third consecutive month billing at this pace. And I don't really care. I like my work, I take pride in it, and I believe that I can continue to develop my skills so as to produce even better work in the future.

I know some people are miserable, but that's definitely not all of us, and the typical TLS pile-on that claims EVERY biglaw attorney is miserable deserves pushback. That's what kcdc1 was doing: pushing back on a point that is clearly exaggerated and subject an echo-chamber mentality on these boards.