Firms to avoid Forum

[Anonymous User]

When people say Jones Day pays below market salary/bonuses, how much below market are we talking? Like a 3rd year lockstep would be 185k + 50k DPW bonus. So JD would have to pay 235k, given they spread bonus pay throughout the year, to match market. So how much less do people report that a 2k-2.2k biller would get from JD? I can't imagine it would be too much below market, at least for the corp associates, where the lateral market is pretty strong. OTOH, the fact that bonuses are figured into yearly salary probably severely discourages lateralling,

At least from my experience with JD, you get a slightly above market salary bump, but no bonus component. Idk whether this is the case across all offices. Sure, you can consider the marginal extra salary increase a "bonus" that pays out over the course of the year. But getting 5K extra salary bump and zero bonus as a second year still nets you 20K less than 2nd years at other firms with regular bonuses would have made (and that's on top of the 15K bonus that you wouldn't have received as a 1st year). Might be different at the top or bottom of the bell curve (they discourage discussion of salaries so its hard to know), but it seemed like most people were in the same boat. Like most of you, I was under the impression before I got there that a market rate bonus (or something close to it), would be worked into salary bump. But that isn't the case.

All in all, its a great place to work and a wonderful firm. But I just hope they are upfront about compensation details to prospective hires.

[rpupkin]

Associate here. From my knowledge/experience:


Shearman Sterling

can you elaborate? have only heard nice things

I don't know anything about Shearman Sterling, but I would ignore anon posts that suggest avoiding a firm (or firms) without any explanation.

Anecdotal information is of limited value anyway. But if you're going to provide it, at least flesh out the details of the anecdote a bit.

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on DLA Piper?

[MCFC]

Any thoughts on DLA Piper?

People I've spoken to seemed to enjoy it.

[Anonymous User]

I do think KE suits a specific personality, but I don't associates have any particularly different outlook on their prospects than other institutional firms. If anything, once you realize how aggressive and youth-oriented the place can be, you'll more quickly recognize whether the place is truly a good fit for you.

Biglaw is all about hanging on. Go to a place where you can do 2000-2100 for 5 years.

[Traynor Brah]

Any thoughts on DLA Piper?

I've often seem it used as a punchline on tls but I can't figure out why in real life.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Although I disclaim that I'm a summer, I wouldn't completely discount the idea that a summer can get any idea of what it's like to work at a firm. However, I will say it's possible with a real, affirmative effort to really see how the work affects attorneys you'll eventually be working with. I think the key is spending a lot of time with them outside of the office and official firm events.

Dude, you cracked the code! We associates try to hide the truth from the SAs during the summer. But all it takes is one ambitious upstart--a guy who makes "a real, affirmative effort"--to foil our plans. Curses, we almost got away with it!

To be fair, the only thing more delusional than a summer who thinks an SA accurately reflects what it's like to be an associate is an associate who think he's fooling the summers. We all see the dead eyes.

[BigZuck]

Any thoughts on DLA Piper?

I've often seem it used as a punchline on tls but I can't figure out why in real life.

I think it's stuff like this:
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/05/associat ... e-pipe-up/

and it's a pre-ITE meme that's like "You kinda suck and won't get anything else from OCI so enjoy dla piper loser." At least that's what I think it is, I haven't dug too deeply into the hive for this one.

[Traynor Brah]

Any thoughts on DLA Piper?

I've often seem it used as a punchline on tls but I can't figure out why in real life.

I think it's stuff like this:
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/05/associat ... e-pipe-up/

and it's a pre-ITE meme that's like "You kinda suck and won't get anything else from OCI so enjoy DLA Piper loser." At least that's what I think it is, I haven't dug too deeply into the hive for this one.

Ljl. Spot on.

[Anonymous User]

thoughts on Foley & Lardner, Sidley Auston, or Baker & McKenzie? Mostly interested in Chicago corporate work.

[trebekismyhero]

thoughts on Foley & Lardner, Sidley Auston, or Baker & McKenzie? Mostly interested in Chicago corporate work.

Sidley is the best out of the three by far for Corporate in Chicago. During OCI and call backs I really liked Foley. They're growing their Chicago office and the ppl were nice.

I have heard mixed things about Baker. It is not much different than DLA or the other big vereins. Very bureacratic, not close to any full time associates there, but my friends that did SA there liked it.

[Anonymous User]

thoughts on Foley & Lardner, Sidley Auston, or Baker & McKenzie? Mostly interested in Chicago corporate work.

Sidley is the best out of the three by far for Corporate in Chicago. During OCI and call backs I really liked Foley. They're growing their Chicago office and the ppl were nice.

I have heard mixed things about Baker. It is not much different than DLA or the other big vereins. Very bureacratic, not close to any full time associates there, but my friends that did SA there liked it.

Foley's pay is also a bit wonky after the first three years, so they generally end up paying a bit below market for mid-levels. Bonuses are also black box (aka below market). Nice people though and billing reqs are low.

Sidley is clearly the best firm of the three, though.

[doing_it_in_a_car]

What's the word on Latham these days. They seem to have a great business outlook, but do people think they're still likely to Latham people if the economy tanks again?

[monsterman]

any thoughts on Reed Smith? I feel like I saw some shitty stuff about them on here before, but don't feel like looking for it after writing a hundred cover letters today

[Anonymous User]

any thoughts on Reed Smith? I feel like I saw some shitty stuff about them on here before, but don't feel like looking for it after writing a hundred cover letters today

They typically paid under market in almost all of their offices, but a few months ago they moved to market in most (or all) of their offices, and a pretty decent amount above market in Pittsburgh.

Looking at their revenue per lawyer, leverage, and AMLaw's Profits per Lawyer metric, they seem pretty average. I'm working there now and I like it, but I think the bonuses are pretty black box and I don't think they're lockstep after the first few years at all. I do think the firm is trending in the right direction, though.

[Anonymous User]

When people say Jones Day pays below market salary/bonuses, how much below market are we talking? Like a 3rd year lockstep would be 185k + 50k DPW bonus. So JD would have to pay 235k, given they spread bonus pay throughout the year, to match market. So how much less do people report that a 2k-2.2k biller would get from JD? I can't imagine it would be too much below market, at least for the corp associates, where the lateral market is pretty strong. OTOH, the fact that bonuses are figured into yearly salary probably severely discourages lateralling,

At least from my experience with JD, you get a slightly above market salary bump, but no bonus component. Idk whether this is the case across all offices. Sure, you can consider the marginal extra salary increase a "bonus" that pays out over the course of the year. But getting 5K extra salary bump and zero bonus as a second year still nets you 20K less than 2nd years at other firms with regular bonuses would have made (and that's on top of the 15K bonus that you wouldn't have received as a 1st year). Might be different at the top or bottom of the bell curve (they discourage discussion of salaries so its hard to know), but it seemed like most people were in the same boat. Like most of you, I was under the impression before I got there that a market rate bonus (or something close to it), would be worked into salary bump. But that isn't the case.

All in all, its a great place to work and a wonderful firm. But I just hope they are upfront about compensation details to prospective hires.

Damn. Does this vary by office? It seems like it would be hard to keep people if there's literally no bonuses. Maybe not 2-3 years ago, but at least now that the DPW is so high. I would probably work there anyway, given how much I have liked the summer so far, but it does suck to know I'll be making a good deal less than people at peer firms.

Any idea why the compensation ends up being so low? PPP is substantially lower than a lot of other firms, and evidently associate pay is as well. Does JD just have lower rates, lower hours billed by associates, or what? Something doesn't add up.

[Anonymous User]

What's the word on Latham these days. They seem to have a great business outlook, but do people think they're still likely to Latham people if the economy tanks again?

Latham's profits are way up and they hire/staff more conservatively than they used to. No indication that they would need to latham people again but if things went bad fast and hard I think they like many firms would have to. The PR hit from last time was bad so I'd be surprised if they didn't save it as a desperate last resort.

any thoughts on Reed Smith? I feel like I saw some shitty stuff about them on here before, but don't feel like looking for it after writing a hundred cover letters today

It's one of those firms where it really depends on the practice group and who you're working with. I know someone in the pharma group who loves it but I hear stories of difficult partners/associates so it might be luck of the draw.

[Anonymous User]

When people say Jones Day pays below market salary/bonuses, how much below market are we talking? Like a 3rd year lockstep would be 185k + 50k DPW bonus. So JD would have to pay 235k, given they spread bonus pay throughout the year, to match market. So how much less do people report that a 2k-2.2k biller would get from JD? I can't imagine it would be too much below market, at least for the corp associates, where the lateral market is pretty strong. OTOH, the fact that bonuses are figured into yearly salary probably severely discourages lateralling,

At least from my experience with JD, you get a slightly above market salary bump, but no bonus component. Idk whether this is the case across all offices. Sure, you can consider the marginal extra salary increase a "bonus" that pays out over the course of the year. But getting 5K extra salary bump and zero bonus as a second year still nets you 20K less than 2nd years at other firms with regular bonuses would have made (and that's on top of the 15K bonus that you wouldn't have received as a 1st year). Might be different at the top or bottom of the bell curve (they discourage discussion of salaries so its hard to know), but it seemed like most people were in the same boat. Like most of you, I was under the impression before I got there that a market rate bonus (or something close to it), would be worked into salary bump. But that isn't the case.

All in all, its a great place to work and a wonderful firm. But I just hope they are upfront about compensation details to prospective hires.

Damn. Does this vary by office? It seems like it would be hard to keep people if there's literally no bonuses. Maybe not 2-3 years ago, but at least now that the DPW is so high. I would probably work there anyway, given how much I have liked the summer so far, but it does suck to know I'll be making a good deal less than people at peer firms.

Any idea why the compensation ends up being so low? PPP is substantially lower than a lot of other firms, and evidently associate pay is as well. Does JD just have lower rates, lower hours billed by associates, or what? Something doesn't add up.

The general line is that it's a trade-off for the culture of the firm. Arguably there are less shitty people/backstabbing/in-fighting at JD than peer firms. Whether you believe that or not is the general demarcation about who stays/goes. People who lateral here from other firms tend to support the view, and people rarely lateral to other firms just for the bonus. When the gap in comp gets big enough, associates tend to band together and raise the issue, and the firm has historically closed the gap.

For those in it for the long haul, you have a substantially better chance at making partner at JD than you do at peer firms. We don't have non-equity partners, and have a pretty well-regarded Partner-pension program.

At least during my interviews/summer people outright said that if you want to make the most money, this isn't the place for you. But, if you think starting at market is already making a lot of money, and you want to like the people you work with, then you'll probably fit in here.

[Anonymous User]

What's the word on Latham these days. They seem to have a great business outlook, but do people think they're still likely to Latham people if the economy tanks again?

If the economy tanks again any firm that doesn't have work will conduct mass layoffs. Latham's layoffs were atypical for the V10 and that should certainly be a consideration for anyone choosing between multiple V10 firms, but many V100 firms, including mine, achieved similar results over several months through stealth layoffs. Attorneys who are stealthed sometimes get no severance (or maybe two weeks' severance), and a few weeks of remaining on the website. Latham gave its attorneys six months' severance and medical coverage.

[Anonymous User]

At least from my experience with JD, you get a slightly above market salary bump, but no bonus component. Idk whether this is the case across all offices. Sure, you can consider the marginal extra salary increase a "bonus" that pays out over the course of the year. But getting 5K extra salary bump and zero bonus as a second year still nets you 20K less than 2nd years at other firms with regular bonuses would have made (and that's on top of the 15K bonus that you wouldn't have received as a 1st year). Might be different at the top or bottom of the bell curve (they discourage discussion of salaries so its hard to know), but it seemed like most people were in the same boat. Like most of you, I was under the impression before I got there that a market rate bonus (or something close to it), would be worked into salary bump. But that isn't the case.

All in all, its a great place to work and a wonderful firm. But I just hope they are upfront about compensation details to prospective hires.

Damn. Does this vary by office? It seems like it would be hard to keep people if there's literally no bonuses. Maybe not 2-3 years ago, but at least now that the DPW is so high. I would probably work there anyway, given how much I have liked the summer so far, but it does suck to know I'll be making a good deal less than people at peer firms.

Any idea why the compensation ends up being so low? PPP is substantially lower than a lot of other firms, and evidently associate pay is as well. Does JD just have lower rates, lower hours billed by associates, or what? Something doesn't add up.

The general line is that it's a trade-off for the culture of the firm. Arguably there are less shitty people/backstabbing/in-fighting at JD than peer firms. Whether you believe that or not is the general demarcation about who stays/goes. People who lateral here from other firms tend to support the view, and people rarely lateral to other firms just for the bonus. When the gap in comp gets big enough, associates tend to band together and raise the issue, and the firm has historically closed the gap.

For those in it for the long haul, you have a substantially better chance at making partner at JD than you do at peer firms. We don't have non-equity partners, and have a pretty well-regarded Partner-pension program.

At least during my interviews/summer people outright said that if you want to make the most money, this isn't the place for you. But, if you think starting at market is already making a lot of money, and you want to like the people you work with, then you'll probably fit in here.

Ah the better chance of making partner might explain it. JD's profit margin is similar to other firms, but it has way more equity partners. So maybe the pie is the same size, but more people are eating it. I can live with that if the firm lives up to its reputation when I start as an associate.

[Anonymous User]

When people say Jones Day pays below market salary/bonuses, how much below market are we talking? Like a 3rd year lockstep would be 185k + 50k DPW bonus. So JD would have to pay 235k, given they spread bonus pay throughout the year, to match market. So how much less do people report that a 2k-2.2k biller would get from JD? I can't imagine it would be too much below market, at least for the corp associates, where the lateral market is pretty strong. OTOH, the fact that bonuses are figured into yearly salary probably severely discourages lateralling,

At least from my experience with JD, you get a slightly above market salary bump, but no bonus component. Idk whether this is the case across all offices. Sure, you can consider the marginal extra salary increase a "bonus" that pays out over the course of the year. But getting 5K extra salary bump and zero bonus as a second year still nets you 20K less than 2nd years at other firms with regular bonuses would have made (and that's on top of the 15K bonus that you wouldn't have received as a 1st year). Might be different at the top or bottom of the bell curve (they discourage discussion of salaries so its hard to know), but it seemed like most people were in the same boat. Like most of you, I was under the impression before I got there that a market rate bonus (or something close to it), would be worked into salary bump. But that isn't the case.

All in all, its a great place to work and a wonderful firm. But I just hope they are upfront about compensation details to prospective hires.

Damn. Does this vary by office? It seems like it would be hard to keep people if there's literally no bonuses. Maybe not 2-3 years ago, but at least now that the DPW is so high. I would probably work there anyway, given how much I have liked the summer so far, but it does suck to know I'll be making a good deal less than people at peer firms.

Any idea why the compensation ends up being so low? PPP is substantially lower than a lot of other firms, and evidently associate pay is as well. Does JD just have lower rates, lower hours billed by associates, or what? Something doesn't add up.

Idk if it varies by office. Again, they really discourage discussion of this stuff so its not really known to a lot of people. As for how hard it is to keep people, yeah, some people get frustrated by it as time goes by. Though I don't really hear of people leaving specifically because of compensation, since most know from the onset that they will be making less. Its all part of a conscious trade off for an environment that is actually very supportive and positive, a firm that is very loyal to its people, and a firm that genuinely gives the high performers a chance to make partner (this is a very relative statement, since its still biglaw in that very few actually stick it out and make partner).

JD does position itself as a bargain firm as far as the upper tier firms go, so the rates are lower than at peer firms. And yes, PPP is lower than peer firms because the partners themselves make the same tradeoffs (i.e. making less money in exchange for some of the intangibles). Its just part of the culture of the firm to not do bonuses.

Again, I really like the place as whole, but I don't like that they mislead by hiding behind the whole "black box" thing

[dixiecupdrinking]

Re JD, I don't know. If you like it then that's great, but I am extremely wary of pitches that rely on totally subjective and unmeasurable "advantages" of one firm over another, particularly when it's something like "culture," which no two associates will experience the same way. Plus no one has more than one or two well founded comparisons to other firms anyway.

Maybe it's bc I work with nice (though demanding and often bad-at-managing) people and am underestimating how many real assholes are out there.