Pay vs. Billing tradeoff poll --160k/2000hrs vs. 90k/1600hrs Forum

[lacrossebrother]

Can someone tell me what salary best maximizes dat PAYE then? When does my extra salary ≠ more $$ for me?

I mean it always equals extra money. But the discount factor is kinda dependent on loan balance etc. Pretty safe to always do a 10% adjustment based on the PAYE mechanics. Biglaw people are also probably more likely to refinance and actually pay the whole debt balance off. Then it becomes a really tricky computation because you're looking at the person making the 90k salary maybe not paying off their loan in its entirety and getting in effect an increased salary through a windfall.

I clearly don't have the time to run the numbers, but just in my head with taxes and PAYE I think averaging out a lot of circumstances you should probably discount each biglaw dollar by about 55%. This also doesn't even include the increased time one has and will budget etc. I waste so much money on takeout food and having my groceries delivered, which I would prefer not to do, but just don't have time to do.

Does this food expenditure not get offset by seamless and frequent firm events? Or do you pay for lunch/dinner pretty regularly?

[Johann]

Good point. Lots of free lunch as well at big firms (if you tried to game free lunches you could basically get free lunch 10 days every month pretty easily, but a lot of these dumb events I don't go to because I'd rather get out of the office for a little bit). I forgot small law firms don't have these. I usually don't get the dinner food expense because I would rather buy my $20 dinner myself and work from home to bill the last 2 hours than work in the office until 9 to get a cab ride/dinner.

But, yes, in theory this could be a big benefit.

[XxSpyKEx]

T14 here. I struck out at OCI and managed to land the 90k/1600 job described here. For the longest time I've been so stressed out about it, hoping some big law opportunity will open up. Is this 90k/1600 firm really a rarity? i've been bummed since OCI because everyone else landed big law and i didn't. should i not be bummed then?

If this is non-NYC and not insurance defense, you have a much better situation then them. They will be looking for exit options after 1 year and their 2k requirement is really more like 2400 of doc review/make sure appropriate comma placement and spacing. You will gain actual lawyer skills and be in a place with sustainable growth. Wouldn't surprise me if people that start in these gigs end up having higher career earnings than the average lawyer starting in NYC biglaw because your partnership odds are 5-10x greater right off the bat.
But this depends on the firm. But in terms of generally and playing the norm, I think you are in the better situation.
If it's insurance defense, they will try to sweatshop you, so you have to set boundaries and basically refuse to let your pace get much over the 1600 amount because if you give an inch they'll take it.

Not to mention 1600 hours in insurance defense is really more like 2000 hours billed, since insurance companies are a bunch of chislers who will scrutinize every hour and fight aggressively to have their legal bills cut.

[kalvano]

This thread makes me love my job.

[Tiago Splitter]

All else is equal.

People ITT have really struggled with this part of the OP.

[Desert Fox]

All else is equal.

People ITT have really struggled with this part of the OP.

fish going to swim
lawyers going to fight the hypo

[Anonymous User]

T14 here. I struck out at OCI and managed to land the 90k/1600 job described here. For the longest time I've been so stressed out about it, hoping some big law opportunity will open up. Is this 90k/1600 firm really a rarity? i've been bummed since OCI because everyone else landed big law and i didn't. should i not be bummed then?

unless your T14 is yale, "everyone else" did not land a big law job. but as far as your comparative employment is concerned, tell yourself what you'd like, you'll probably be happier than some of your peers -- although if you're still in law school, how do you know it will be 1600 hours? Lots of lower paying jobs are still very demanding.

it's 1600 minimum, bonuses based on how much you go over. so, i would get more if i worked >1600.

to people asking if it's NYC or insurance related, answer is no to both.

[Johann]

T14 here. I struck out at OCI and managed to land the 90k/1600 job described here. For the longest time I've been so stressed out about it, hoping some big law opportunity will open up. Is this 90k/1600 firm really a rarity? i've been bummed since OCI because everyone else landed big law and i didn't. should i not be bummed then?

unless your T14 is yale, "everyone else" did not land a big law job. but as far as your comparative employment is concerned, tell yourself what you'd like, you'll probably be happier than some of your peers -- although if you're still in law school, how do you know it will be 1600 hours? Lots of lower paying jobs are still very demanding.

it's 1600 minimum, bonuses based on how much you go over. so, i would get more if i worked >1600.

to people asking if it's NYC or insurance related, answer is no to both.

Yeah man congrats. Id put that outcome tied for #1 with fed govt work.

[jbagelboy]

T14 here. I struck out at OCI and managed to land the 90k/1600 job described here. For the longest time I've been so stressed out about it, hoping some big law opportunity will open up. Is this 90k/1600 firm really a rarity? i've been bummed since OCI because everyone else landed big law and i didn't. should i not be bummed then?

unless your T14 is yale, "everyone else" did not land a big law job. but as far as your comparative employment is concerned, tell yourself what you'd like, you'll probably be happier than some of your peers -- although if you're still in law school, how do you know it will be 1600 hours? Lots of lower paying jobs are still very demanding.

it's 1600 minimum, bonuses based on how much you go over. so, i would get more if i worked >1600.

to people asking if it's NYC or insurance related, answer is no to both.

Yea that's pretty damn good!

[AReasonableMan]

the more money not even close. 1600 isn't part time so might as well go all in.

[Anonymous User]

T14 here. I struck out at OCI and managed to land the 90k/1600 job described here. For the longest time I've been so stressed out about it, hoping some big law opportunity will open up. Is this 90k/1600 firm really a rarity? i've been bummed since OCI because everyone else landed big law and i didn't. should i not be bummed then?

unless your T14 is yale, "everyone else" did not land a big law job. but as far as your comparative employment is concerned, tell yourself what you'd like, you'll probably be happier than some of your peers -- although if you're still in law school, how do you know it will be 1600 hours? Lots of lower paying jobs are still very demanding.

it's 1600 minimum, bonuses based on how much you go over. so, i would get more if i worked >1600.

to people asking if it's NYC or insurance related, answer is no to both.

Yea that's pretty damn good!

what i'm concerned about is paying off this crippling debt...

[mmelittlechicken]

Money.

[Johann]

what i'm concerned about is paying off this crippling debt...

PAYE

[UnicornHunter]

Time

[youtube]BOksW_NabEk[/youtube]

[XxSpyKEx]

T14 here. I struck out at OCI and managed to land the 90k/1600 job described here. For the longest time I've been so stressed out about it, hoping some big law opportunity will open up. Is this 90k/1600 firm really a rarity? i've been bummed since OCI because everyone else landed big law and i didn't. should i not be bummed then?

unless your T14 is yale, "everyone else" did not land a big law job. but as far as your comparative employment is concerned, tell yourself what you'd like, you'll probably be happier than some of your peers -- although if you're still in law school, how do you know it will be 1600 hours? Lots of lower paying jobs are still very demanding.

it's 1600 minimum, bonuses based on how much you go over. so, i would get more if i worked >1600.

to people asking if it's NYC or insurance related, answer is no to both.

Yeah man congrats. Id put that outcome tied for #1 with fed govt work.

But fed govt work gets PSLF, law firm doesn't. Imagine having $175k + 10 years of interest at 7.9% forgiven tax-free would be a lot more beneficial than the 1600 minimum billable hour firm. Also, he's probably wind up working less hours in federal government (unlikely he'll get away with working 9-5:30pm most days at the firm, whereas at fed govt, 9-5:30 most days is realistic).

what i'm concerned about is paying off this crippling debt...

PAYE

20 years of that shit + tax bomb.

[Johann]

my reason for ranking that type of law firm life tied for govt is you can still make better money as partner and live in more family friendly cities instead of just major metro areas. id have aspirations of being a partner if i was at a regional big firm with 1600 requirements.

[XxSpyKEx]

my reason for ranking that type of law firm life tied for govt is you can still make better money as partner and live in more family friendly cities instead of just major metro areas.

Ah, that makes sense re: partnership. Although, for what it's worth, a lot of the federal agencies aren't actually located in DC (i.e. a lot of them are in the suburbs, if that's what you mean by more family friendly cities). Also, the top of some federal agency payscales are probably close to what a partner at a smaller or midsize firm makes (e.g. FDIC, Federal Reserve Board, SEC, etc.). (I'm assuming the 90k option here is a midsize or smaller firm, since I doubt you could get away with only billing 1600 hours at a national biglaw office in a secondary market---at least I've never heard of it). But at this point, it's really just a matter of personal preference (i.e. whether you'd rather be at a firm long-term or working for the federal government long-term).