NYC Biglaw Associate Taking Q's Forum

[r6_philly]

biglaw is worse than TLS says.

if anything, I'd agree with this. For the most part, this site seems to paint a bit of an overly optimistic and rosy view of big firm life. Again, almost certainly something you aren't going to like or enjoy, but for 99% of folks in biglaw, liking or enjoying it was never in the cards to begin with, since thats not why we are here. Plus, you have to be some kind of masochist with little to no family/personal life to genuinely enjoy it.

I have 4 kids and I enjoy it to the extend it can be enjoyed. I can tell you it beat the heck out of working longer and harder for half the pay, where many people with family and kids had to deal with outside of law. Many friends are working two three jobs at $10/hour and withstanding constant abuse from their bosses and customers much worse than biglaw associates. I'm lucky to have the option to make money and actually come home. Don't you remember the case where Walmart locked the doors overnight to keep in their minimum wage workers?

What this site does is not being optimistic about biglaw, it is about working. If you are forced to deal with this you don't really want to do because you have to be an adult and pay for your obligations, it is not going to be very enjoyable. At least in biglaw you get paid more than you need so you can prepare for the next steps.

[012grad]

Well 4 kids are expensive, that's for sure. I've got 2 myself. Who helps with homework or reads before bedtime? Is that something you ever have time for or do you have the kind of family where your spouse can take care of all that herself while you are at the office?

[Anonymous User]

biglaw is worse than TLS says.

if anything, I'd agree with this. For the most part, this site seems to paint a bit of an overly optimistic and rosy view of big firm life. Again, almost certainly something you aren't going to like or enjoy, but for 99% of folks in biglaw, liking or enjoying it was never in the cards to begin with, since thats not why we are here. Plus, you have to be some kind of masochist with little to no family/personal life to genuinely enjoy it.

I have 4 kids and I enjoy it to the extend it can be enjoyed. I can tell you it beat the heck out of working longer and harder for half the pay, where many people with family and kids had to deal with outside of law. Many friends are working two three jobs at $10/hour and withstanding constant abuse from their bosses and customers much worse than biglaw associates. I'm lucky to have the option to make money and actually come home. Don't you remember the case where Walmart locked the doors overnight to keep in their minimum wage workers?

What this site does is not being optimistic about biglaw, it is about working. If you are forced to deal with this you don't really want to do because you have to be an adult and pay for your obligations, it is not going to be very enjoyable. At least in biglaw you get paid more than you need so you can prepare for the next steps.

Again, which is why I said I don't "hate" it or anything like that. I was just trying to make clear to people that almost nobody "likes" or "enjoys" being there. That doesn't mean there aren't incentives to stay. As you touched upon, we get paid well, get a lot of responsibility, get good training and experience, etc. Which is precisely why so many people are in the "grin and bear it" mindset. They get full well that close to no one enjoys it, but that its still useful and valuable to some extent.

That there are some people who work in objectively horrible jobs for less pay isn't really relevant because it doesn't affect my personal experience, nor does it affect yours. I'm assuming you don't enjoy it simply out of a sense of persepctive.

[84651846190]

Height? Courtroom presence?

[Anonymous User]

Height? Courtroom presence?

Slightly above average height. Not tall enough to be considered tall, but certainly not short.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone else?

[Anonymous User]

What kind of networking do you do outside the firm? Are you involved in charities, foundations, or volunteer organizations? Do you think this kind of stuff is important in opening options and making connections for when you leave the firm life?

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

biglaw is worse than TLS says.

if anything, I'd agree with this. For the most part, this site seems to paint a bit of an overly optimistic and rosy view of big firm life. Again, almost certainly something you aren't going to like or enjoy, but for 99% of folks in biglaw, liking or enjoying it was never in the cards to begin with, since thats not why we are here. Plus, you have to be some kind of masochist with little to no family/personal life to genuinely enjoy it.

I have 4 kids and I enjoy it to the extend it can be enjoyed. I can tell you it beat the heck out of working longer and harder for half the pay, where many people with family and kids had to deal with outside of law. Many friends are working two three jobs at $10/hour and withstanding constant abuse from their bosses and customers much worse than biglaw associates. I'm lucky to have the option to make money and actually come home. Don't you remember the case where Walmart locked the doors overnight to keep in their minimum wage workers?

What this site does is not being optimistic about biglaw, it is about working. If you are forced to deal with this you don't really want to do because you have to be an adult and pay for your obligations, it is not going to be very enjoyable. At least in biglaw you get paid more than you need so you can prepare for the next steps.

I wonder whether there is any difference in terms of biglaw for people in their 30s vs 20s. I don't have kids yet but I'm married and I've also had some really shitty jobs in the past making $8/9 an hour. So while I expect big law will be a grind I don't think it will be worse than expected. And being older I appreciate the opportunity a lot more--and am more willing to work hard without any praise/appreciation--than I was in the past.

[Ravenclaw23]

How's the relationship with your peers? Are other associates looked down on (by other associates or experienced members of the firm) if they went to a lower ranked school (whether that be a NU or GULC v. Harvard or a tier 1 regional v. T14)?

[Anonymous User]

How's the relationship with your peers? Are other associates looked down on (by other associates or experienced members of the firm) if they went to a lower ranked school (whether that be a NU or GULC v. Harvard or a tier 1 regional v. T14)?

I have very solid relationships with peers. Everyone is largely friendly and respectful, and generally easy to get along with.

There is really no conception of where people went to school once you are in the door. Good work is good work. Sure, the vast majority of my peers went to the very top schools. But I know a guy who is a superstar at the firm, and is a sure thing to make partner, who went to a lower T1 regional school. Another girl was top of her class at a Tier 3 school. We don't even recruit from the school, but of course will give a look to the top few people if they reach out. And that girl proves that the very top students at such schools are just as capable, if not more capable than the average T14 student.

[Anonymous User]

What kind of networking do you do outside the firm? Are you involved in charities, foundations, or volunteer organizations? Do you think this kind of stuff is important in opening options and making connections for when you leave the firm life?

Not much really. Its something I should do more of. I'm just so busy that cultivating a network outside my firm becomes really difficult. But at the same time, its something that is pretty valuable down the road. I am a member of the NYC Bar association, and am thinking about getting involved in certain committees that interest me. Will be a good way to meet people from other firms who do similar work.

[ruski]

biglaw is worse than TLS says.

if anything, I'd agree with this. For the most part, this site seems to paint a bit of an overly optimistic and rosy view of big firm life. Again, almost certainly something you aren't going to like or enjoy, but for 99% of folks in biglaw, liking or enjoying it was never in the cards to begin with, since thats not why we are here. Plus, you have to be some kind of masochist with little to no family/personal life to genuinely enjoy it.

I have 4 kids and I enjoy it to the extend it can be enjoyed. I can tell you it beat the heck out of working longer and harder for half the pay, where many people with family and kids had to deal with outside of law. Many friends are working two three jobs at $10/hour and withstanding constant abuse from their bosses and customers much worse than biglaw associates. I'm lucky to have the option to make money and actually come home. Don't you remember the case where Walmart locked the doors overnight to keep in their minimum wage workers?

What this site does is not being optimistic about biglaw, it is about working. If you are forced to deal with this you don't really want to do because you have to be an adult and pay for your obligations, it is not going to be very enjoyable. At least in biglaw you get paid more than you need so you can prepare for the next steps.

I wonder whether there is any difference in terms of biglaw for people in their 30s vs 20s. I don't have kids yet but I'm married and I've also had some really shitty jobs in the past making $8/9 an hour. So while I expect big law will be a grind I don't think it will be worse than expected. And being older I appreciate the opportunity a lot more--and am more willing to work hard without any praise/appreciation--than I was in the past.

I think you will be surprised. as an older person who has worked before, your tolerance for the BS that is law firm life is much lower. the people in their 20s who have never worked have nothing to compare this too. however, pple who have worked and know how a normal office environment should be run will be pretty annoyed at how big law firms are run. you will have way less tolerance for stuff like, sitting in a senior associates office and just watching him work till midnight, repeating a given task 4 times for the only purpose of driving up hours, etc. so while your appreciation for hard work may be higher than the 20 somethings, your patience will be much much lower. to succeed in a law firm you cant just be able to work hard and long, you have to put up with an enormous amount of BS, moreso than other jobs. other jobs might suck more on other levels, but no job has the amount of BS that a law firm does. and it basically all revolves around the notion of the billable hour and working as inefficiently as possible. you will be asked to quadruple check a 90 page docket at midnight just for the sake of finding one comma mistake. its pretty dumb from a cost/benefit analysis, but hey why not if you're billing for it

[Anonymous User]

I think you will be surprised. as an older person who has worked before, your tolerance for the BS that is law firm life is much lower. the people in their 20s who have never worked have nothing to compare this too. however, pple who have worked and know how a normal office environment should be run will be pretty annoyed at how big law firms are run. you will have way less tolerance for stuff like, sitting in a senior associates office and just watching him work till midnight, repeating a given task 4 times for the only purpose of driving up hours, etc. so while your appreciation for hard work may be higher than the 20 somethings, your patience will be much much lower. to succeed in a law firm you cant just be able to work hard and long, you have to put up with an enormous amount of BS, moreso than other jobs. other jobs might suck more on other levels, but no job has the amount of BS that a law firm does. and it basically all revolves around the notion of the billable hour and working as inefficiently as possible. you will be asked to quadruple check a 90 page docket at midnight just for the sake of finding one comma mistake. its pretty dumb from a cost/benefit analysis, but hey why not if you're billing for it

Credited from a guy in his mid 30s who just started. Though they pay me enough that I probably won't complain. I was in the office one night until 3 am during the summer putting "sign here" stickies on a deal...no way I was the best option but my guess is the billed for it.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I think you will be surprised. as an older person who has worked before, your tolerance for the BS that is law firm life is much lower. the people in their 20s who have never worked have nothing to compare this too. however, pple who have worked and know how a normal office environment should be run will be pretty annoyed at how big law firms are run. you will have way less tolerance for stuff like, sitting in a senior associates office and just watching him work till midnight, repeating a given task 4 times for the only purpose of driving up hours, etc. so while your appreciation for hard work may be higher than the 20 somethings, your patience will be much much lower. to succeed in a law firm you cant just be able to work hard and long, you have to put up with an enormous amount of BS, moreso than other jobs. other jobs might suck more on other levels, but no job has the amount of BS that a law firm does. and it basically all revolves around the notion of the billable hour and working as inefficiently as possible. you will be asked to quadruple check a 90 page docket at midnight just for the sake of finding one comma mistake. its pretty dumb from a cost/benefit analysis, but hey why not if you're billing for it

Credited from a guy in his mid 30s who just started. Though they pay me enough that I probably won't complain. I was in the office one night until 3 am during the summer putting "sign here" stickies on a deal...no way I was the best option but my guess is the billed for it.

Hmmm, well that sucks. I will be in lit not corporate, and I'm sure there is a ton of inefficient work in both. Based on my summer experience, it seemed like there was a huge range in what 1st and 2nd years were doing. Some of them were only doing doc review, making binders, making powerpoint presentations. Others had a mix between that and better work. A few were functioning as mid-levels and making substantive decisions and essentially running the case. Unfortunately I didn't notice any correlation between age (or law school or anything) and who got what responsibilities, so maybe its random or maybe its a matter of luck which people you are working with.

[fats provolone]

heh

[r6_philly]

I had to work late when it was necessary but how could that be surprise? I wouldn't have liked to sit around to watch someone to work, I agree. But that's why you choose your firm carefully. It will still happen as your work dictates but at a better place people won't make you sit there--they simply expect you to be available when assigned work. One cannot stress the importance of the "facetime" culture. It is the difference of sitting in your office at midnight waiting for a call that may not come or talking and working from your couch or coming I when called.

But I agree, older juniors don't mind working but are easily frustrated with inefficiencies especially ones easily cureable.

[Anonymous User]

I think you will be surprised. as an older person who has worked before, your tolerance for the BS that is law firm life is much lower. the people in their 20s who have never worked have nothing to compare this too. however, pple who have worked and know how a normal office environment should be run will be pretty annoyed at how big law firms are run. you will have way less tolerance for stuff like, sitting in a senior associates office and just watching him work till midnight, repeating a given task 4 times for the only purpose of driving up hours, etc. so while your appreciation for hard work may be higher than the 20 somethings, your patience will be much much lower. to succeed in a law firm you cant just be able to work hard and long, you have to put up with an enormous amount of BS, moreso than other jobs. other jobs might suck more on other levels, but no job has the amount of BS that a law firm does. and it basically all revolves around the notion of the billable hour and working as inefficiently as possible. you will be asked to quadruple check a 90 page docket at midnight just for the sake of finding one comma mistake. its pretty dumb from a cost/benefit analysis, but hey why not if you're billing for it

Credited from a guy in his mid 30s who just started. Though they pay me enough that I probably won't complain. I was in the office one night until 3 am during the summer putting "sign here" stickies on a deal...no way I was the best option but my guess is the billed for it.

I agree that the inefficiencies can be frustrating at times, and the model is just so skewed when you compare it to how a typical business functions. And I also agree that those just out of school, who never really worked in an office environment before, may not fully perceive just how inefficient things can be at times (though its certainly not entirely lost on the younger folks).

[Anonymous User]

I think you will be surprised. as an older person who has worked before, your tolerance for the BS that is law firm life is much lower. the people in their 20s who have never worked have nothing to compare this too. however, pple who have worked and know how a normal office environment should be run will be pretty annoyed at how big law firms are run. you will have way less tolerance for stuff like, sitting in a senior associates office and just watching him work till midnight, repeating a given task 4 times for the only purpose of driving up hours, etc. so while your appreciation for hard work may be higher than the 20 somethings, your patience will be much much lower. to succeed in a law firm you cant just be able to work hard and long, you have to put up with an enormous amount of BS, moreso than other jobs. other jobs might suck more on other levels, but no job has the amount of BS that a law firm does. and it basically all revolves around the notion of the billable hour and working as inefficiently as possible. you will be asked to quadruple check a 90 page docket at midnight just for the sake of finding one comma mistake. its pretty dumb from a cost/benefit analysis, but hey why not if you're billing for it

Credited from a guy in his mid 30s who just started. Though they pay me enough that I probably won't complain. I was in the office one night until 3 am during the summer putting "sign here" stickies on a deal...no way I was the best option but my guess is the billed for it.

Hmmm, well that sucks. I will be in lit not corporate, and I'm sure there is a ton of inefficient work in both. Based on my summer experience, it seemed like there was a huge range in what 1st and 2nd years were doing. Some of them were only doing doc review, making binders, making powerpoint presentations. Others had a mix between that and better work. A few were functioning as mid-levels and making substantive decisions and essentially running the case. Unfortunately I didn't notice any correlation between age (or law school or anything) and who got what responsibilities, so maybe its random or maybe its a matter of luck which people you are working with.

Its not surprising that you saw this disparity in progression. And you are correct that it is not based on age. Some second/third years move into some very meaty and substantive roles more quickly than others largely because (a) they have demonstrated skill and aptitude that indicates that they can handle it, (b) they are aggressive in pursuing additional responsibilities, and (c) they work with people who are open to letting the less experienced associates prove themselves in that way.

That has nothing to do with age, and has everything to do with your instincts, attentiveness, initiative, critical thinking skills, etc. A second year with prior work experience is no different than a second year straight out of school with regard to these things. Sure, the former may have more background substantive knowledge, and may have more skill in navigating the nuances of office politics, but thats not necessarily what gets you that quick progression.

[fats provolone]

you forgot luck

[Anonymous User]

First year associate (3 months on the job) here. Do you find things get easier as you get more senior? I find myself making the occasional minor mistake every now and then (e.g. misspelling someone's name in a document or missing a period) and getting called out on it. Alternatively, I find the stuff I write (even if it's for small things like inconsequential discovery disputes) gets rewritten pretty consistently by the higher-ups. I really don't think I'm doing a bad job because I keep getting work but I just can't tell...

I'm definitely not producing sloppy work product (I proof things like 3-5 times before sending them to the midlevel/senior associates) and I'm sure I'm getting better than when I started but I feel defeated every time someone points out something I messed up.

Is this normal or am I terrible?

[Anonymous User]

First year associate (3 months on the job) here. Do you find things get easier as you get more senior? I find myself making the occasional minor mistake every now and then (e.g. misspelling someone's name in a document or missing a period) and getting called out on it. Alternatively, I find the stuff I write (even if it's for small things like inconsequential discovery disputes) gets rewritten pretty consistently by the higher-ups. I really don't think I'm doing a bad job because I keep getting work but I just can't tell...

I'm definitely not producing sloppy work product (I proof things like 3-5 times before sending them to the midlevel/senior associates) and I'm sure I'm getting better than when I started but I feel defeated every time someone points out something I messed up.

Is this normal or am I terrible?

This is incredibly discouraging to read

[Anonymous User]

First year associate (3 months on the job) here. Do you find things get easier as you get more senior? I find myself making the occasional minor mistake every now and then (e.g. misspelling someone's name in a document or missing a period) and getting called out on it. Alternatively, I find the stuff I write (even if it's for small things like inconsequential discovery disputes) gets rewritten pretty consistently by the higher-ups. I really don't think I'm doing a bad job because I keep getting work but I just can't tell...

I'm definitely not producing sloppy work product (I proof things like 3-5 times before sending them to the midlevel/senior associates) and I'm sure I'm getting better than when I started but I feel defeated every time someone points out something I messed up.

Is this normal or am I terrible?

This is incredibly discouraging to read

Please don't make anonymous comments unless they need to be anonymous (thread will be less confusing that way).

OP here. Everyone misses a few small things here and there, but try your absolute hardest to use laser focus, and a sharp eye to catch those things. As a very junior person, its hard to find ways to contribute value and really pitch in. But one of the few things you can do just as well as any other lawyer at the firm, whether associate or partner, is to have a very sharp eye for details when proofing docs. Mistakes happen, and others can and will note them to you, but I wouldn't let it defeat or discourage you. It happens. And its why so many sets of eyes look at the same docs before they go out.

And getting your stuff rewritten isn't a big deal either. As a total beginner, your main job in drafting is to simply provide a template that the higher ups can re-work into the polished, finished product. No one expects for you to put out something close to the final daft. So don't be discouraged when it gets changed quite a bit. Best thing is to learn what they are changing and why, so that you can better get in sync with the partners and senior associates above you.

[Anonnn]

First year associate (3 months on the job) here. Do you find things get easier as you get more senior? I find myself making the occasional minor mistake every now and then (e.g. misspelling someone's name in a document or missing a period) and getting called out on it. Alternatively, I find the stuff I write (even if it's for small things like inconsequential discovery disputes) gets rewritten pretty consistently by the higher-ups. I really don't think I'm doing a bad job because I keep getting work but I just can't tell...

I'm definitely not producing sloppy work product (I proof things like 3-5 times before sending them to the midlevel/senior associates) and I'm sure I'm getting better than when I started but I feel defeated every time someone points out something I messed up.

Is this normal or am I terrible?

This is incredibly discouraging to read

Please don't make anonymous comments unless they need to be anonymous (thread will be less confusing that way).

OP here. Everyone misses a few small things here and there, but try your absolute hardest to use laser focus, and a sharp eye to catch those things. As a very junior person, its hard to find ways to contribute value and really pitch in. But one of the few things you can do just as well as any other lawyer at the firm, whether associate or partner, is to have a very sharp eye for details when proofing docs. Mistakes happen, and others can and will note them to you, but I wouldn't let it defeat or discourage you. It happens. And its why so many sets of eyes look at the same docs before they go out.

And getting your stuff rewritten isn't a big deal either. As a total beginner, your main job in drafting is to simply provide a template that the higher ups can re-work into the polished, finished product. No one expects for you to put out something close to the final daft. So don't be discouraged when it gets changed quite a bit. Best thing is to learn what they are changing and why, so that you can better get in sync with the partners and senior associates above you.

Thanks, I'm really trying as hard as I can to keep up the laser focus. Sometimes it just seems like "perfect" is impossible. But thanks for the encouraging words!

[ruski]

I think you will be surprised. as an older person who has worked before, your tolerance for the BS that is law firm life is much lower. the people in their 20s who have never worked have nothing to compare this too. however, pple who have worked and know how a normal office environment should be run will be pretty annoyed at how big law firms are run. you will have way less tolerance for stuff like, sitting in a senior associates office and just watching him work till midnight, repeating a given task 4 times for the only purpose of driving up hours, etc. so while your appreciation for hard work may be higher than the 20 somethings, your patience will be much much lower. to succeed in a law firm you cant just be able to work hard and long, you have to put up with an enormous amount of BS, moreso than other jobs. other jobs might suck more on other levels, but no job has the amount of BS that a law firm does. and it basically all revolves around the notion of the billable hour and working as inefficiently as possible. you will be asked to quadruple check a 90 page docket at midnight just for the sake of finding one comma mistake. its pretty dumb from a cost/benefit analysis, but hey why not if you're billing for it

Credited from a guy in his mid 30s who just started. Though they pay me enough that I probably won't complain. I was in the office one night until 3 am during the summer putting "sign here" stickies on a deal...no way I was the best option but my guess is the billed for it.

Hmmm, well that sucks. I will be in lit not corporate, and I'm sure there is a ton of inefficient work in both. Based on my summer experience, it seemed like there was a huge range in what 1st and 2nd years were doing. Some of them were only doing doc review, making binders, making powerpoint presentations. Others had a mix between that and better work. A few were functioning as mid-levels and making substantive decisions and essentially running the case. Unfortunately I didn't notice any correlation between age (or law school or anything) and who got what responsibilities, so maybe its random or maybe its a matter of luck which people you are working with.

it's not even about type of work really. there is nothing wrong with being asked to do doc review or do a presentation. that's not what will get annoying. what will get annoying is being asked to do a presentation at 9pm for a meeting tomorrow morning (although partner knew about this meeting for days). you stay up till 3am doing it. print out color copies for partner to pass out (you weren't invited to the meeting as a first year). then you find out he never even brought your presentations to the meeting... this is a true story. its also not firm dependent. large law firms have 200 partners and hundred of associates. there are people like this everywhere, regardless of "firm culture." firm culture is mostly the same among top firms because they have the exact same business model and problems plaguing them. a 35 year old grown man with kids and who used to manage an entire team of juniors at his prior job is just not going to put up with this (and really neither will a 22yr single guy with no one waiting at home for him).

[r6_philly]

I'm that 35 yo who used to manage a team of people and I can say some firms are better than others, relatively. I also am willing to set ground rules as a junior and not put up with a whole lot of nonesense. It's just like any other jobs I had, different people same idea -- learn to manage it like an adult.

I have to say from limited experience that associates are generally younger than me and are used to assign work in a way they are used to -- start late end late with frequent breaks. Many partners go home to families so they don't enjoy hanging out too late. But you don't usually get work from partners. But in my case people knows I have kids and generally respect my home obligations. Late nights are necessities only.