DF Thread Forum

[Desert Fox]

Know for a fact that my v100 will up bonus game this year, but no one will follow us.

i'm glad you have a working knowledge of 100 law firms

(but earnestly hope you get your increased bonus!)

They can bc Cahill has given above market bonuses + supplemental bonuses for years now, and nobody follows.

I took it to mean up it even more, but yeah Cahill could continue to pay its special bonuses or whatever.

Would really like to see the return of the KIRKLAND SHATTERS meme.

The sort of thinking that creates the KIRKLAND SHATTERS meme is why bonuses suck and we haven't seen an increase in salary in 8 years. Snooty V5 associates see Kirkland doubly their V5 bonus and think, well I still am better off not being at that prolish Kirkland.

So the only firms who bother paying associates are the ones who grind them down so hard, that they have to make it rain to keep people.

[sideroxylon]

i just want to talk about market shattering brownies, bro

[Desert Fox]

i just want to talk about market shattering brownies, bro

Quinn has MARKET SHATTERING FOOTWEAR.

[sideroxylon]

i just want to talk about market shattering brownies, bro

Quinn has MARKET SHATTERING FOOTWEAR.

I think Quinn is too frugal to give out the market shattering footwear these days.

[mvp99]

also unless you live at home or get living expenses paid you're gonna end up with a fat tab anyway

and let's be real they'd rather you went to HLS

Yes. And down the road the HLS guy will be picked before you for that GC job you always wanted.

Weird taking shit personally schtick. Have you ever gotten screened for BPD?

Not taking it personally. I agree with you and add that firms/corporation will prefer you graduated from a prestigious LS down the road. The guy from the T2 was trying to make it look like T2 with amazing grades/full scholly and you're set but the truth is that the diploma follows you for the rest of your life. Of course it will matter less and less the more experience you have etc. but you know what I'm sayin... it sucks but that's the game

[Pokemon]

i just want to talk about market shattering brownies, bro

Quinn has MARKET SHATTERING FOOTWEAR.

I think Quinn is too frugal to give out the market shattering footwear these days.

My Quinn sandals have been going strong for 3 years now. Sturdiest piece of footwear I own.

[patogordo]

My Quinn sandals have been going strong for 3 years now. Sturdiest piece of footwear I own.

because you never leave the office?

[Pokemon]

My Quinn sandals have been going strong for 3 years now. Sturdiest piece of footwear I own.

because you never leave the office?

Nope... not at the firm. Were given to me during recruiting event. I would add though that I wear the sandals outside, inside, the beach and stuff and they look as good as new.

[Anonymous User]

Not at Cahill. Firm historically is below market. Nobody will follow because if firms like STB don't follow Boies, Quinn, Kirkland, Cahill, they sure as hell won't follow us.

The excuses V10 firms to refuse to follow an overall trend are lousy. I'm sure their comp committee members try to draw arbitrary lines to rationalize not following certain firms.

[Old Gregg]

Mainstream biglaw firms have zero incentive to raise the bar on salaries or bonuses. The moment one does so, everyone else will fall in line in short order, and that will negate any recruiting benefit. Only the most aspie of nerds would remember the esoteric fact of a specific firm being a first mover.

In order to get these firms to raise salaries, competing industries have to be contributing to an overall talent drain from the same pool of candidates that mainstream biglaw firms recruit from. In other words, we need to see investment banks and consulting firms hire more JDs. Lately, startups are also ramping up hiring, so it wouldn't surprise me to see salaries go up because the combined hiring of consulting firms, financial institutions and startups makes it tough for mainstream biglaw firms to recruit.

[Desert Fox]

Mainstream biglaw firms have zero incentive to raise the bar on salaries or bonuses. The moment one does so, everyone else will fall in line in short order, and that will negate any recruiting benefit. Only the most aspie of nerds would remember the esoteric fact of a specific firm being a first mover.

In order to get these firms to raise salaries, competing industries have to be contributing to an overall talent drain from the same pool of candidates that mainstream biglaw firms recruit from. In other words, we need to see investment banks and consulting firms hire more JDs. Lately, startups are also ramping up hiring, so it wouldn't surprise me to see salaries go up because the combined hiring of consulting firms, financial institutions and startups makes it tough for mainstream biglaw firms to recruit.

I think you are overestimating how much other industries would affect biglaw.

I think if any increase will occur it will be based on firms losing midlevels. Losing them to other firms, to in house spots, smaller firms, government, etc. It'll probably just be bonuses at first. Corp lateral market is pretty damn good. Bonuses are essentially set by what Cravath thinks will 1) prevent too much attrition and 2) keep up morale.

Probably won't mean a whole lot for juniors. But if the lateral market gets hotter, they'll have to pay juniors too.

I know my office has seen like 40% of our rising third year class leave biglaw in the past month. Prob just normal attrition, but firms still never went back to hiring as many juniors as preITE.

[JamMasterJ]

DF do you say bonuses rather than salaries because those are actually relevant portions of midlaw comp while not being big for juniors?

[Old Gregg]

I think you are overestimating how much other industries would affect biglaw.

Nope. Strongly believe that previous increases were related to investment banks increasingly tapping into the same pool that Simpson hired from.

I think if any increase will occur it will be based on firms losing midlevels. Losing them to other firms, to in house spots, smaller firms, government, etc. It'll probably just be bonuses at first. Corp lateral market is pretty damn good. Bonuses are essentially set by what Cravath thinks will 1) prevent too much attrition and 2) keep up morale.

We'll see if this is true. But I'm tired of hearing the line that always seems to be tossed around as internal gossip: If Firm X doesn't raise salaries/bonuses, people will leave! This is definitely true, but I have yet to see it change the way a firm acts.

I know my office has seen like 40% of our rising third year class leave biglaw in the past month. Prob just normal attrition, but firms still never went back to hiring as many juniors as preITE.

Yes, it's probably normal attrition. And it doesn't matter that firms didn't return to pre-economic crisis hiring. Today, firms believe in getting more hours out of fewer lawyers. That's why people are working at pre-economic crisis hours, for the most part.

[Anonymous User]

what about accounting for inflation?

[Desert Fox]

DF do you say bonuses rather than salaries because those are actually relevant portions of midlaw comp while not being big for juniors?

For that and because bonuses are reevaluated every single year.

[JamMasterJ]

DF do you say bonuses rather than salaries because those are actually relevant portions of midlaw comp while not being big for juniors?

For that and because bonuses are reevaluated every single year.

ooh I didn't even think of that second part. Fluctuating pay actually makes a ton of sense since they can calibrate better to hours and PPP/RPL. obvi pisses people off on the ground tho.

[Old Gregg]

DF do you say bonuses rather than salaries because those are actually relevant portions of midlaw comp while not being big for juniors?

For that and because bonuses are reevaluated every single year.

ooh I didn't even think of that second part. Fluctuating pay actually makes a ton of sense since they can calibrate better to hours and PPP/RPL. obvi pisses people off on the ground tho.

...problem is that the there isn't any fluctuation. Compensation has remained pretty stagnant despite increases in PPP and RPL, and the reevaluation meetings for most big law firms is simply a five minute "so we are following Cravath, right?" To pretend it's anything else or that partners rigorously debate whether to give anything higher is a joke.

[lonerider]

Mainstream biglaw firms have zero incentive to raise the bar on salaries or bonuses. The moment one does so, everyone else will fall in line in short order, and that will negate any recruiting benefit. Only the most aspie of nerds would remember the esoteric fact of a specific firm being a first mover.

In order to get these firms to raise salaries, competing industries have to be contributing to an overall talent drain from the same pool of candidates that mainstream biglaw firms recruit from. In other words, we need to see investment banks and consulting firms hire more JDs. Lately, startups are also ramping up hiring, so it wouldn't surprise me to see salaries go up because the combined hiring of consulting firms, financial institutions and startups makes it tough for mainstream biglaw firms to recruit.

I think pretty much this. Associates don't share in profits. Firms don't bump up their bonuses and salaries because times are good. Given that nearly all firms pay the exact same salary/bonus, they aren't competing with each other for talent.

Cravath does a cost/benefit analysis on retention. If associates defect too quickly, Cravath doesn't get its ROI for the training & benefits invested. That's when Cravath will up the bonus. What Zweitbester leaves out is the average amount of debt each associate is carrying, and how law school tuition has outpaced inflation for years. I'll be starting with $280k in total debt. I don't care how many banks are hiring, I need a big law salary for several years to reasonably service that debt. Rising law school debt works to big law's favor.

[Anonymous User]

Mainstream biglaw firms have zero incentive to raise the bar on salaries or bonuses. The moment one does so, everyone else will fall in line in short order, and that will negate any recruiting benefit. Only the most aspie of nerds would remember the esoteric fact of a specific firm being a first mover.

In order to get these firms to raise salaries, competing industries have to be contributing to an overall talent drain from the same pool of candidates that mainstream biglaw firms recruit from. In other words, we need to see investment banks and consulting firms hire more JDs. Lately, startups are also ramping up hiring, so it wouldn't surprise me to see salaries go up because the combined hiring of consulting firms, financial institutions and startups makes it tough for mainstream biglaw firms to recruit.

I think pretty much this. Associates don't share in profits. Firms don't bump up their bonuses and salaries because times are good. Given that nearly all firms pay the exact same salary/bonus, they aren't competing with each other for talent.

Cravath does a cost/benefit analysis on retention. If associates defect too quickly, Cravath doesn't get its ROI for the training & benefits invested. That's when Cravath will up the bonus. What Zweitbester leaves out is the average amount of debt each associate is carrying, and how law school tuition has outpaced inflation for years. I'll be starting with $280k in total debt. I don't care how many banks are hiring, I need a big law salary for several years to reasonably service that debt. Rising law school debt works to big law's favor.

A shiver literally went down my spine when I read you'll be starting with $280k in debt. NY to $190k!

[Anonymous User]

I agree that attrition will drive raises in compensation. My firm, like most, are bleeding mid-levels quicker than they want to. It is becoming a real concern and I anticipate firms will at least raise mid-level comp soon, or at least my firm will. I can't speak for other firms but most mid-levels at my firm are not leaving for other firms. They leave for in-house opportunities. Could I and other associates get more comp at other firms? Probably. But, it is not worth the small bump in pay. Most people would rather take the devil they know if they are willing to stay at a firm. If in-house is only paying slightly less than a firm, it's a no-brainer. If there is a large disparity in comp, then people will stay at law firms longer. It is pretty straight-forward.

[Anonymous User]

I agree that attrition will drive raises in compensation. My firm, like most, are bleeding mid-levels quicker than they want to. It is becoming a real concern and I anticipate firms will at least raise mid-level comp soon, or at least my firm will. I can't speak for other firms but most mid-levels at my firm are not leaving for other firms. They leave for in-house opportunities. Could I and other associates get more comp at other firms? Probably. But, it is not worth the small bump in pay. Most people would rather take the devil they know if they are willing to stay at a firm. If in-house is only paying slightly less than a firm, it's a no-brainer. If there is a large disparity in comp, then people will stay at law firms longer. It is pretty straight-forward.

Are you purely speculating that your firm will be raising mid-level compensation soon, or is there some legitimate talk of it?

[FKASunny]

I'll be starting with $280k in total debt.

jesus christ

I legit wish you good luck and hope you love big law

[sinfiery]

I'll be starting with $280k in total debt.

jesus christ

I legit wish you good luck and hope you love big law

This is pretty common at my school; if not more than this


I have friends who have absolutely killed law school and are worried their only return on investment is going to be 7 wasted years of life to get back to where they started

At some point, people are going to stop going to law school if this continues

[5ky]

I'll be starting with $280k in total debt.

jesus christ

I legit wish you good luck and hope you love big law

This is pretty common at my school; if not more than this

NY/CA school?

I can't even comprehend and feel so badly for those people.

[Old Gregg]

I'll be starting with $280k in total debt.

jesus christ

I legit wish you good luck and hope you love big law

This is pretty common at my school; if not more than this

NY/CA school?

I can't even comprehend and feel so badly for those people.

Just wait until your kids have to go to school.

what a fucked up country this place.