Why is my ratio of screeners to CB's so low? Forum

[newbienew]

ETA: Being a good interviewer is in many ways the same as being a good conversationalist. It's an art, and some people are just not good at it. Practice helps, but to a large degree you simply have to be good at reading the other person's body language/nonverbal cues and mirroring them. If they're quiet or energetic, you should be too. You should closely follow what the interviewer is saying and give nonverbal cues yourself to indicate that you're listening. Focus on the questions you're being asked and read between the lines; is there a question behind the question? Make eye contact. Have a firm handshake. Nod to indicate you're following along. And never feel like you have to follow pitches or ask questions you wrote out beforehand -- adapt to the interview and the interviewer.

This is fantastic advice.

[Rahviveh]

ETA: Being a good interviewer is in many ways the same as being a good conversationalist. It's an art, and some people are just not good at it. Practice helps, but to a large degree you simply have to be good at reading the other person's body language/nonverbal cues and mirroring them. If they're quiet or energetic, you should be too. You should closely follow what the interviewer is saying and give nonverbal cues yourself to indicate that you're listening. Focus on the questions you're being asked and read between the lines; is there a question behind the question? Make eye contact. Have a firm handshake. Nod to indicate you're following along. And never feel like you have to follow pitches or ask questions you wrote out beforehand -- adapt to the interview and the interviewer.

This is fantastic advice.

Not really. As he said, practice helps but its one of those things you have to be good at. If you aren't good at it by now, its too late.

[Anonymous User]

I'm top 20% at GW, I (used to) generally interview well, and I'm having this problem too. A lot of my acquaintances are as well....maybe we're all awkward as fuck.

I'm top 10% at USC/UCLA and many top students have 1, maybe 2 callbacks. Some even have 0. Idk if it's the cycle or what, but this seems to be a brutal OCI.

this is a little different. top 20% at GW with only a couple CB's makes sense in this market. OP's results don't. OP: stay confident. Depending on the firms you bid, some CB times are later. How many ding emails have you received? You might be on the "HOLD" list for some firms due to your lack of experience, but this isn't a death sentence.

To the top 10% at CCN: which firms did you bid? If you included the NY firms with large class sizes (50+), you should be auto-CB. IF you only bid SF or DC or something, then yea.. you could have very few to no callbacks. My friends with strong grades bidding SF or DC definitely don't have as many bites, that's just how it works. As wiz suggested, even now you could probably MM the grade sensitive NY large class size firms (Skadden, DPW, Cleary, Simpson, PW, ect) and get to the callback stage.

Is this HOLD list a real thing? Should I have some hope? I had 20 screeners, all preselect, and have had 2 CBs and only 5 dings so far. I know other people at my school that have received dings from firms I interviewed with, whereas I have heard nothing. Does that mean my ding is likely coming, or am I potentially on this hold list?

Would love to know this myself, as I am in a very similar position.

[Emma.]

Having a pitch is generally a problem. If you are pitching something then you are likely coming off like an asshole.

[WhiskeynCoke]

Way too small a sample size to really tell if your conversion rate went up when you made some change. Also, I think you may be understating top 10% at a T40. Blatant GULC trolling.

Again: is being a good interviewer important? Yes. Do grades cease to matter at the screener stage? Absolutely not.

Yes, top 10% at a t-40 is better than top 1/3 at MVP. The evidence for this is that you would have been more competitive for CCN than top third at MVP. I do disagree with the sentiment about grades. If both people are above the cutoff then it's almost always just interviewing. This isn't to say that the grades are irrelevant, but if the firm has a 3.5 cutoff, a 3.7 vs. a 3.6 isn't that relevant. Although certain to be shot down, students would be better served by having a surveillance camera filming the interview that a CSO officer reviews and tells the student about. This would be 25x more useful than the mock interviewing garbage.

Um, what? No way top 10% at a "T40" is better than top 1/3 at MVP. Maybe T20, but definitely not T40. Your rationalization is also ridiculous. Top 10% T40 can get into CCN and top 1/3 MVP can't. Therefore, herp de derp. You really think that law firms evaluate candidates based on their likelihood of CCN being willing to take their money? Just lol..

Also, your "gpa doesn't matter above the cut-off" bit is patently illogical. Haven't you considered the possibility that an interviewer could think two candidates interviewed equally well? You really don't think they would take the 3.7 instead of the 3.6 as a straightforward (and easy to justify to the hiring committee) tie-breaker?

Terrible post dude. Also, great use of anon.

[NotMyRealName09]

If you're pitching yourself, that's um, weird.

You're not being interviewed. YOU need to be convinced to join their firm. So be a normal person and ask your interviewer questions that make them think positive things about their job. This will make them associate positive thoughts with you.

How did you end up practicing X? Did you always know you didn't want to (transactional or litigation)? If not, what made up your mind? Or did you just sort of fall into the work you do now? What do you like most about your job? Tell me about your typical day (this question has great potential to lead your interviewer to think of an interesting anecdote from an interesting case, and transition into some good old bullshitting about bullshit). What can you tell me about the firm culture, the type of people your firm likes to hire?

A real conversation flows better but you get the idea. The point is to spend as much of your interview talking about your interviewer. Don't be weird about it - they'll ask you their standard BS interview questions first - pro tip, even your interviewer thinks interviews are weird and interview questions stupid. But if there weren't interview questions on a sheet, interviews with anti-social weirdos would get super silent and awkward. Hence the like of the person who engages with genuine questions.

But there will come a moment when the interviewers interest in asking more questions wanes, and then you strike. That moment could be the literal "do you have any questions for me?" But better to transition to asking them questions before this, preferably springboarding from something you were asked to asking a similar question of them.

People fucking love talking about themselves and their accomplishments, and having their life choices validated. So convince them you want to be like them by asking them about their life.

Simple goal - talk about your interviewer. No body ever liked a sales person. And this post reminds me how you sometimes can't explain humor without taking all the humor out of the joke. Maybe some people just suck at interviewing.

[NotMyRealName09]

Is this HOLD list a real thing? Should I have some hope? I had 20 screeners, all preselect, and have had 2 CBs and only 5 dings so far. I know other people at my school that have received dings from firms I interviewed with, whereas I have heard nothing. Does that mean my ding is likely coming, or am I potentially on this hold list?

Would love to know this myself, as I am in a very similar position.

I don't know about this specific thing you reference, but firms might use a rolling offer system - offer top candidates immediately once interviewed, let down dings early, and I guess "hold" a few in reserve for when a top candidate rejects the offer? My firm might do this, or they might just extend offers one by one to people they like until the class is full, then ding everyone. There are probably a lot of different ways to run the recruiting circus.

[KidStuddi]

top 1/3 MVP, interview well, weak resume, k-jd

45 screeners (20 at OCI, 25 over the summer), so far only two CB's.

30 CA, 15 NY

Probably a combo of terrible resume and caustic personality.

You need to do a practice interview with someone who won't blow smoke up ur bum.

I know people overestimate their interviewing abilities, but I've done a lot of mock interviews, and am very personable. I also have a solid "pitch" . Even if both of what you said is true though, how is this statistically possible

"I interview well" is one of these law school tropes that just needs to die. It's become such a meaningless banality. Anyone who doesn't drool all over themselves during the mock interview is going to be told they did well by career services. What the hell else are they going to tell you? That you're a horrible bore and you're going to dramatically underperform your numbers unless you develop some personality in the next two weeks?

View this from career services' point of view: they've watched hundreds of the most aspie assholes imaginable land jobs at firms because of their grades. We've all seen it and we all know it's true. Are they really going to tell a boring but nice kid that he's a bad interviewer when Dick McPoppedCollar over there just got hired by S&C even though he found a way to mention his dad's yacht twice during his screener? The only way a CSO is ever going to tell you you're bad in interviews is if you're just an absolute shit show. Being told you interview well, in practice, means "well enough not to be dinged across the board on personality alone." That's how low the bar is and you didn't fall under it.

[JamMasterJ]

If you're pitching yourself, that's um, weird.

You're not being interviewed. YOU need to be convinced to join their firm. So be a normal person and ask your interviewer questions that make them think positive things about their job. This will make them associate positive thoughts with you.

How did you end up practicing X? Did you always know you didn't want to (transactional or litigation)? If not, what made up your mind? Or did you just sort of fall into the work you do now? What do you like most about your job? Tell me about your typical day (this question has great potential to lead your interviewer to think of an interesting anecdote from an interesting case, and transition into some good old bullshitting about bullshit). What can you tell me about the firm culture, the type of people your firm likes to hire?

A real conversation flows better but you get the idea. The point is to spend as much of your interview talking about your interviewer. Don't be weird about it - they'll ask you their standard BS interview questions first - pro tip, even your interviewer thinks interviews are weird and interview questions stupid. But if there weren't interview questions on a sheet, interviews with anti-social weirdos would get super silent and awkward. Hence the like of the person who engages with genuine questions.

But there will come a moment when the interviewers interest in asking more questions wanes, and then you strike. That moment could be the literal "do you have any questions for me?" But better to transition to asking them questions before this, preferably springboarding from something you were asked to asking a similar question of them.

People fucking love talking about themselves and their accomplishments, and having their life choices validated. So convince them you want to be like them by asking them about their life.

Simple goal - talk about your interviewer. No body ever liked a sales person. And this post reminds me how you sometimes can't explain humor without taking all the humor out of the joke. Maybe some people just suck at interviewing.

This is basically the cliff's notes version of how to win friends and influence people and it is absolutely solid advice. I mean, you have to give them a little something to sell to the committee, but for the most part, this approach is really good.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at 1 Ding, 1 CB, and 20 screeners completed now. Nail biting, to say the least. Radio silence is tough.

[Anonymous User]

I can tell you based on personal experience that it's more about the interview and experience than grades. I have a 3.45 from a T50 (we don't rank but I would guess top 1/3ish if not worse) with great w/e and have an offer in my back pocket already. I know several people 3.8+ that haven't had one callback yet and I am 3/14 so far. I completely expect at this point to get one or two more.

For the firm that I have an offer from I went to my callback with people at my school with 3.8+ and I walked away with the offer and they didn't. Firms are often looking for fit and the ability to actually work than anything else. The fact that you can type faster than most on an unrealistic exam only marginally helps to answer that question.

If you aren't getting a callback, you probably come off as arrogant, timid, or boring and if you are only top 1/3 with no w/e, you are going to have trouble with this entire process.

[Anonymous User]

Should not have wasted so many for California regardless of your ties, New York is a safer bet.

Obviously having the right resume and putting together decent interviews is important. But bidding on firms with big classes in the city where you have the best shot at getting a job is important too. Top 1/3 at lower T14 probably isn't getting you to CA without ties. Getting to DC even with ties isn't guaranteed. Bidding heavily on secondary markets like Seattle, Boston, Minneapolis, and Denver can leave a top 10% student shut out.

That said, not everyone moves at New York speed. There is still time. But I would recommend that you start or restart your mass mailing campaign now. And I would recommend you find someone, anyone, who will give you honest feedback on a mock interview.

I'm the top 10% at CCN person above. All the interviews were in markets similar to these ones, so I guess that might explain it a bit. But I have substantial ties to those markets, so I thought that typical piece of wisdom didn't apply.

[Learn_Live_Hope]

Could it be the fit maybe?

I think its very important on top of your grades to illustrate to firm that you fit there. Fit within their culture.

[Anonymous User]

One problem might be that since you've applied to 45 firms, there is no possible way you have a compelling reason for being interested in any particular firm. Did you apply to the best 45 firms in a certain practice area? Probably not because you are K-JD and don't have reason to know what the practice areas actually are.

I agree with the above advice that you score points with the questions you ask the interviewer. But one caveat--the best questions are those that combine 1) your knowledge of the firm with 2) things you bring to the table with 3) things you want to know. How much research did you do of the 45 firms you interviewed with? Twenty minutes of research before the interview (literally, on your laptop in the waiting room/interview suite) can turn a nothing interview into a CB.

[Nelson]

.

[sinfiery]

Do they actually send out dings for screeners taken at OCI?

[ymmv]

Do they actually send out dings for screeners taken at OCI?

Yes, but often days or weeks after the actual CBs go out. Usually by email IME.

[Anonymous User]

35 screeners (job fair+OCI) and 4 CBs, I really considered myself terrible at doing interview for this low ratio.
However, I got my 5th CB this morning at the end of my screener and I was the first one of the list to interview today. and I was like ...wtf, there are like 10 people you haven't talked yet and you already gave me a CB...
I used the same resume, similar pitch (slightly different for each firm) every time, so I guess sometimes it really depends on luck.

[Pokemon]

This thread might be helpful: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=214732

Obviously some dispute as to whether the advice is good, but if you are doing badly already, it is worth a read.

[baal hadad]

OP how did you even come up w a "pitch " when you have 0 experience to back it up

[Anonymous User]

oops

[Rahviveh]

If you're pitching yourself, that's um, weird.

You're not being interviewed. YOU need to be convinced to join their firm. So be a normal person and ask your interviewer questions that make them think positive things about their job. This will make them associate positive thoughts with you.

How did you end up practicing X? Did you always know you didn't want to (transactional or litigation)? If not, what made up your mind? Or did you just sort of fall into the work you do now? What do you like most about your job? Tell me about your typical day (this question has great potential to lead your interviewer to think of an interesting anecdote from an interesting case, and transition into some good old bullshitting about bullshit). What can you tell me about the firm culture, the type of people your firm likes to hire?

A real conversation flows better but you get the idea. The point is to spend as much of your interview talking about your interviewer. Don't be weird about it - they'll ask you their standard BS interview questions first - pro tip, even your interviewer thinks interviews are weird and interview questions stupid. But if there weren't interview questions on a sheet, interviews with anti-social weirdos would get super silent and awkward. Hence the like of the person who engages with genuine questions.

But there will come a moment when the interviewers interest in asking more questions wanes, and then you strike. That moment could be the literal "do you have any questions for me?" But better to transition to asking them questions before this, preferably springboarding from something you were asked to asking a similar question of them.

People fucking love talking about themselves and their accomplishments, and having their life choices validated. So convince them you want to be like them by asking them about their life.

Simple goal - talk about your interviewer. No body ever liked a sales person. And this post reminds me how you sometimes can't explain humor without taking all the humor out of the joke. Maybe some people just suck at interviewing.

this makes the most sense to me. problem is that our CSO pushes us to "sell ourselves" hard in interviews, and show what we bring to the table. despite the fact that 1L's bring nothing to the table, and perhaps have negative value. you cant sell water to a well in that situation. and mock interviewing really is useless.

[09042014]

Part of your conversation should be a pitch. Not a hard formal pitch, but a soft sell.

[glitched]

It seriously depends...

For standard why law, why this firm, why this city questions, you need a pitch (meaning you need a practiced answer). With everything else, you need to be a good conversationalist/normal person. The problem is when you're in the "everything else" territory, and you try to bring in your pitch. That's when things get awkward.

To OP, you might think your pitch is good, but so does everyone else. Let's hear the pitch. I was having a lot of trouble with OCI and then kinda turned things around when I got some good advice. Basically, I switched from focusing on the firm benefiting me to my being an asset to the firm. We can't really give you advice unless we get to hear what you've been saying to these firms.

[NotMyRealName09]

Interviewing is like dating. Here is something I said in 2013.

The dating metaphor is truly apt - women don't want desperation, they want the dude that could have any chick in the room. They want the dude who acts like he's too good for them. He's not mean, he might be a little bit of an asshole, he might not even be the best looking guy in the room, but he doesn't give a shit about them and they can't figure out why (because every other dude always wants them), and goddamn it drives them crazy, leaves them wanting more. But one whif of fear or desperation - forget it. Be the alpha. Have a secret. This sounds so cliche but there it is.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... ilit=Alpha

It all ties into the theme I tried to lay out above. Don't sell yourself. Make them sell themselves to you. It's a mindset. People like confidence, and it isn't being cockey, it's knowing what you're worth and being willing to hold out for the right price. And if your resume doesn't scream value, then your attitude, done right, can increase your intangibles, and people might be willing to bet on that shit.

There are more nuggets in that thread if you're interested.