Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing Forum

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hephaestus

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by hephaestus » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:44 am

redsox550 wrote:Also - one thing you should note which is echoed around here quite a bit i that the more selctive firms tend to have bigger SA classes. So for instance sure at Cooley your GPA might be awesome, but they are only hiring 3-4 SA it appears so one might imagine that you would really have to impress them to be one of the few they choose. A larger firm may be more willing to accept someone with a good GPA merely based off of that or would liekly be willing take more of a risk on someone who they arnt positive that would personality be a good fit. So basically, keep class size in mind a bit. Wilson has 1 SA, I can't imagine that the chance of being that one is so high.
Yes this is an incredibly important point. Anyone who is in median-ish territory (3.4-3.6 - the bell portion of the bell curve) should prioritize firms near their GPA that have the largest class sizes, even if it means throwing in more reaches. Firms like Cadwalader, Fried Frank, Wilkie, White and Case, and others have relatively big classes and are not incredibly selective. It's much easier to get an offer for a class of 40 than a class of 5.

Check NALP for historic information on the number of SAs. In general NY headquartered firms will have larger classes than firms with NY-branch offices.

Also email any secondary market you can reasonably demonstrate ties to, and this can be a stretch. If you're from Philly for example mass mail DE, NJ, Pittsburgh, MD etc. Let firms decide that you're not interested in the area, don't make that decision for them.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:55 am

ImNoScar wrote:
redsox550 wrote:Also - one thing you should note which is echoed around here quite a bit i that the more selctive firms tend to have bigger SA classes. So for instance sure at Cooley your GPA might be awesome, but they are only hiring 3-4 SA it appears so one might imagine that you would really have to impress them to be one of the few they choose. A larger firm may be more willing to accept someone with a good GPA merely based off of that or would liekly be willing take more of a risk on someone who they arnt positive that would personality be a good fit. So basically, keep class size in mind a bit. Wilson has 1 SA, I can't imagine that the chance of being that one is so high.
Yes this is an incredibly important point. Anyone who is in median-ish territory (3.4-3.6 - the bell portion of the bell curve) should prioritize firms near their GPA that have the largest class sizes, even if it means throwing in more reaches. Firms like Cadwalader, Fried Frank, Wilkie, White and Case, and others have relatively big classes and are not incredibly selective. It's much easier to get an offer for a class of 40 than a class of 5.

Check NALP for historic information on the number of SAs. In general NY headquartered firms will have larger classes than firms with NY-branch offices.

Also email any secondary market you can reasonably demonstrate ties to, and this can be a stretch. If you're from Philly for example mass mail DE, NJ, Pittsburgh, MD etc. Let firms decide that you're not interested in the area, don't make that decision for them.
Oh, just saw that post now! I just tried looking through the NALP website, but couldn't find that information. I've never been to the site before, where is it? Also, do they specifically how big the big the class is for Cornell students, or just overall? Thanks!

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by Lavitz » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote: Oh, just saw that post now! I just tried looking through the NALP website, but couldn't find that information. I've never been to the site before, where is it? Also, do they specifically how big the big the class is for Cornell students, or just overall? Thanks!
Overall. Go to NALP, search for a firm, click on an office, click on recruiting and hiring, open the hiring grid tab, and look at the "summer" stats to see the class sizes.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by redsox550 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:03 pm

google nalp directory. click. search "wilson". click "wilson New york". click tab on top "recrutiment and hiring." then click on "hiring grid" or SA Hiring questions.

https://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_ ... lson%22%7D
Anonymous User wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:
redsox550 wrote:Also - one thing you should note which is echoed around here quite a bit i that the more selctive firms tend to have bigger SA classes. So for instance sure at Cooley your GPA might be awesome, but they are only hiring 3-4 SA it appears so one might imagine that you would really have to impress them to be one of the few they choose. A larger firm may be more willing to accept someone with a good GPA merely based off of that or would liekly be willing take more of a risk on someone who they arnt positive that would personality be a good fit. So basically, keep class size in mind a bit. Wilson has 1 SA, I can't imagine that the chance of being that one is so high.
Yes this is an incredibly important point. Anyone who is in median-ish territory (3.4-3.6 - the bell portion of the bell curve) should prioritize firms near their GPA that have the largest class sizes, even if it means throwing in more reaches. Firms like Cadwalader, Fried Frank, Wilkie, White and Case, and others have relatively big classes and are not incredibly selective. It's much easier to get an offer for a class of 40 than a class of 5.

Check NALP for historic information on the number of SAs. In general NY headquartered firms will have larger classes than firms with NY-branch offices.

Also email any secondary market you can reasonably demonstrate ties to, and this can be a stretch. If you're from Philly for example mass mail DE, NJ, Pittsburgh, MD etc. Let firms decide that you're not interested in the area, don't make that decision for them.
Oh, just saw that post now! I just tried looking through the NALP website, but couldn't find that information. I've never been to the site before, where is it? Also, do they specifically how big the big the class is for Cornell students, or just overall? Thanks!

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:58 pm

redsox550 wrote:google nalp directory. click. search "wilson". click "wilson New york". click tab on top "recrutiment and hiring." then click on "hiring grid" or SA Hiring questions.

https://www.nalpdirectory.com/employer_ ... lson%22%7D
Anonymous User wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:
redsox550 wrote:Also - one thing you should note which is echoed around here quite a bit i that the more selctive firms tend to have bigger SA classes. So for instance sure at Cooley your GPA might be awesome, but they are only hiring 3-4 SA it appears so one might imagine that you would really have to impress them to be one of the few they choose. A larger firm may be more willing to accept someone with a good GPA merely based off of that or would liekly be willing take more of a risk on someone who they arnt positive that would personality be a good fit. So basically, keep class size in mind a bit. Wilson has 1 SA, I can't imagine that the chance of being that one is so high.
Yes this is an incredibly important point. Anyone who is in median-ish territory (3.4-3.6 - the bell portion of the bell curve) should prioritize firms near their GPA that have the largest class sizes, even if it means throwing in more reaches. Firms like Cadwalader, Fried Frank, Wilkie, White and Case, and others have relatively big classes and are not incredibly selective. It's much easier to get an offer for a class of 40 than a class of 5.

Check NALP for historic information on the number of SAs. In general NY headquartered firms will have larger classes than firms with NY-branch offices.

Also email any secondary market you can reasonably demonstrate ties to, and this can be a stretch. If you're from Philly for example mass mail DE, NJ, Pittsburgh, MD etc. Let firms decide that you're not interested in the area, don't make that decision for them.
Oh, just saw that post now! I just tried looking through the NALP website, but couldn't find that information. I've never been to the site before, where is it? Also, do they specifically how big the big the class is for Cornell students, or just overall? Thanks!

This is amazing advice; I would have never thought of taking this into consider. Thank you, you beautiful human.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by toothbrush » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote: This is amazing advice; I would have never thought of taking this into consider. Thank you, you beautiful human.
...

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by BPLawl » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:22 pm

Could a median bro pull Skadden DE or RLF DE or Morris Nichols DE or Lowenstein Sandler? Are those reasonable mid-to-low bids (planning on following Arbiter's advice and bidding more than the 12-15 Career Services recommends)?

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:33 pm

BPLawl wrote:Could a median bro pull Skadden DE or RLF DE or Morris Nichols DE or Lowenstein Sandler? Are those reasonable mid-to-low bids (planning on following Arbiter's advice and bidding more than the 12-15 Career Services recommends)?
Do you have ties to DE?

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by redsox550 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:44 pm

lol. happy to pass along the TLS favors and knowledge I've experienced and recieved.
Anonymous User wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:
redsox550 wrote:Also - one thing you should note which is echoed around here quite a bit i that the more selctive firms tend to have bigger SA classes. So for instance sure at Cooley your GPA might be awesome, but they are only hiring 3-4 SA it appears so one might imagine that you would really have to impress them to be one of the few they choose. A larger firm may be more willing to accept someone with a good GPA merely based off of that or would liekly be willing take more of a risk on someone who they arnt positive that would personality be a good fit. So basically, keep class size in mind a bit. Wilson has 1 SA, I can't imagine that the chance of being that one is so high.
Yes this is an incredibly important point. Anyone who is in median-ish territory (3.4-3.6 - the bell portion of the bell curve) should prioritize firms near their GPA that have the largest class sizes, even if it means throwing in more reaches. Firms like Cadwalader, Fried Frank, Wilkie, White and Case, and others have relatively big classes and are not incredibly selective. It's much easier to get an offer for a class of 40 than a class of 5.

Check NALP for historic information on the number of SAs. In general NY headquartered firms will have larger classes than firms with NY-branch offices.

Also email any secondary market you can reasonably demonstrate ties to, and this can be a stretch. If you're from Philly for example mass mail DE, NJ, Pittsburgh, MD etc. Let firms decide that you're not interested in the area, don't make that decision for them.
Oh, just saw that post now! I just tried looking through the NALP website, but couldn't find that information. I've never been to the site before, where is it? Also, do they specifically how big the big the class is for Cornell students, or just overall? Thanks!
[/quote]


This is amazing advice; I would have never thought of taking this into consider. Thank you, you beautiful human.[/quote]

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by redsox550 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BPLawl wrote:Could a median bro pull Skadden DE or RLF DE or Morris Nichols DE or Lowenstein Sandler? Are those reasonable mid-to-low bids (planning on following Arbiter's advice and bidding more than the 12-15 Career Services recommends)?
Do you have ties to DE?
No clue if you can pull it or not but if u put DE firms towards the bottom of your list you will snag an extra screener or two you otherwise wouldnt have gotten. and bid on every firm - unless its a firm so repulsive to you that you would rather strike out

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by toothbrush » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:01 pm

redsox550 wrote: No clue if you can pull it or not but if u put DE firms towards the bottom of your list you will snag an extra screener or two you otherwise wouldnt have gotten. and bid on every firm - unless its a firm so repulsive to you that you would rather strike out
You can name Weil by name here, we're all friends.

Just kidding :lol:

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by BPLawl » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BPLawl wrote:Could a median bro pull Skadden DE or RLF DE or Morris Nichols DE or Lowenstein Sandler? Are those reasonable mid-to-low bids (planning on following Arbiter's advice and bidding more than the 12-15 Career Services recommends)?
Do you have ties to DE?
Not really. I had one vacation there. Sounds like a cool place to live with QoL and work quality.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by NYSprague » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:12 pm

toothbrush wrote:
redsox550 wrote: No clue if you can pull it or not but if u put DE firms towards the bottom of your list you will snag an extra screener or two you otherwise wouldnt have gotten. and bid on every firm - unless its a firm so repulsive to you that you would rather strike out
You can name Weil by name here, we're all friends.

Just kidding :lol:
I don't get it.
There are no firms that are worse than striking out.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by toothbrush » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:18 pm

BPLawl wrote: Not really. I had one vacation there. Sounds like a cool place to live with QoL and work quality.
I have no idea exactly how DE works but unless you really want to work in the DE courts for their corp. law shit I would guess "it's an easy and cheap place to live" is not a good answer for "why DE". I would also guess you need some ties. I think someone from TLS works in DE big law you may want to scope them out.

Edit: DELG / IAFG is that person who works in DE.
NYSprague wrote: I don't get it.
There are no firms that are worse than striking out.
Poll: is it better to strike out or to get a job and potentially no-offered? 'Cause Weil ain't doing great, apparently. But again, I was joking.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BPLawl wrote:Could a median bro pull Skadden DE or RLF DE or Morris Nichols DE or Lowenstein Sandler? Are those reasonable mid-to-low bids (planning on following Arbiter's advice and bidding more than the 12-15 Career Services recommends)?
Do you have ties to DE?
Had several DE offers last year without ties. It's important to really pitch DE specific practice - basically bankruptcy and shareholder lit. All the big homegrown DE firms + Skadden come, and they tend not to attract that many bids. I bid DE firms at the point in my bid list where I knew I wouldn't get NY firms and had 4 DE interviews. The more screeners the better.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by hephaestus » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:43 pm

Lavitz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Oh, just saw that post now! I just tried looking through the NALP website, but couldn't find that information. I've never been to the site before, where is it? Also, do they specifically how big the big the class is for Cornell students, or just overall? Thanks!
Overall. Go to NALP, search for a firm, click on an office, click on recruiting and hiring, open the hiring grid tab, and look at the "summer" stats to see the class sizes.
You can't get Cornell specific information, but overall class size + GPA data from Symplicity is enough to gauge.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by redsox550 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:51 pm

NYSprague wrote:
toothbrush wrote:
redsox550 wrote: No clue if you can pull it or not but if u put DE firms towards the bottom of your list you will snag an extra screener or two you otherwise wouldnt have gotten. and bid on every firm - unless its a firm so repulsive to you that you would rather strike out
You can name Weil by name here, we're all friends.

Just kidding :lol:
I don't get it.
There are no firms that are worse than striking out.
I agree and would bid and did bid for all firms. There are people out there who would prefer public interest, government or other work if they don't get what they consider a "good" firm.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by redsox550 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Had several DE offers last year without ties. It's important to really pitch DE specific practice - basically bankruptcy and shareholder lit. All the big homegrown DE firms + Skadden come, and they tend not to attract that many bids. I bid DE firms at the point in my bid list where I knew I wouldn't get NY firms and had 4 DE interviews. The more screeners the better.
This.

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Lincoln

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by Lincoln » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:46 pm

I really just have one comment: Grade inflation is real.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by Arbiter213 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:49 pm

Lincoln wrote:I really just have one comment: Grade inflation is real.
I'm hoping no one catches on for at least another couple months.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by Arkham » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:38 am

I spoke to an advisor today and asked how the 'lottery' for firms works. She said it's like drawing names out of a hat. When a name is drawn they get their top firm that still has an open interview slot and then the name is put back in the hat. This means that there is absolutely no reason to de-prioritize a firm that you would rather interview with because you think it's less likely you'll get an interview with them because the worst that would happen is you move down one on your list. So advice that says to move a firm up because it's more realistic you'll get an interview with them is bad advice.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by Arbiter213 » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:53 am

Arkham wrote:I spoke to an advisor today and asked how the 'lottery' for firms works. She said it's like drawing names out of a hat. When a name is drawn they get their top firm that still has an open interview slot and then the name is put back in the hat. This means that there is absolutely no reason to de-prioritize a firm that you would rather interview with because you think it's less likely you'll get an interview with them because the worst that would happen is you move down one on your list. So advice that says to move a firm up because it's more realistic you'll get an interview with them is bad advice.
They're still explaining it like this? You've got to be fucking kidding me. Two years ago they explained it two different ways. I would be AMAZED if that's the accurate description.

Also, even if it were, what you said doesn't hold.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by Arkham » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:07 pm

Arbiter213 wrote:
Arkham wrote:I spoke to an advisor today and asked how the 'lottery' for firms works. She said it's like drawing names out of a hat. When a name is drawn they get their top firm that still has an open interview slot and then the name is put back in the hat. This means that there is absolutely no reason to de-prioritize a firm that you would rather interview with because you think it's less likely you'll get an interview with them because the worst that would happen is you move down one on your list. So advice that says to move a firm up because it's more realistic you'll get an interview with them is bad advice.
They're still explaining it like this? You've got to be fucking kidding me. Two years ago they explained it two different ways. I would be AMAZED if that's the accurate description.

Also, even if it were, what you said doesn't hold.
Maybe I didn't explain myself well. My point was that you shouldn't think "well I'm worried Latham & Watkins will fill up really fast before #5, so I'll take it off or move it down to #12 so that my #5 is a firm that I have a more realistic chance at getting an interview with." That would be self-defeating because all that would happen if Latham was full at #5 is you'd get your #6 instead (no point in moving your #6 ahead of Latham). Assuming that the way she described it to me is accurate, of course.

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by Arbiter213 » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:20 pm

Arkham wrote:
Arbiter213 wrote:
Arkham wrote:I spoke to an advisor today and asked how the 'lottery' for firms works. She said it's like drawing names out of a hat. When a name is drawn they get their top firm that still has an open interview slot and then the name is put back in the hat. This means that there is absolutely no reason to de-prioritize a firm that you would rather interview with because you think it's less likely you'll get an interview with them because the worst that would happen is you move down one on your list. So advice that says to move a firm up because it's more realistic you'll get an interview with them is bad advice.
They're still explaining it like this? You've got to be fucking kidding me. Two years ago they explained it two different ways. I would be AMAZED if that's the accurate description.

Also, even if it were, what you said doesn't hold.
Maybe I didn't explain myself well. My point was that you shouldn't think "well I'm worried Latham & Watkins will fill up really fast before #5, so I'll take it off or move it down to #12 so that my #5 is a firm that I have a more realistic chance at getting an interview with." That would be self-defeating because all that would happen if Latham was full at #5 is you'd get your #6 instead (no point in moving your #6 ahead of Latham). Assuming that the way she described it to me is accurate, of course.
I just dug through old posts, and apparently that's how it does work (re: names). But remember, the lower on your list, the more likely sufficient other people with that firm above your placement have already been called enough times to get it. So if Latham would've been full by the time you're called 5 times, moving its possible your #6 was full by then too.

For reference (very helpful):

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7#p5641059

Re: how to mass mail:

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p6944097

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Re: Cornell AJF 2014 + Boston / DC Job Fairs, OCI & Mass Mailing

Post by hephaestus » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:25 pm

Anon, sorry for the long wait time, but hope you are still following the thread:
Anonymous User wrote:Top third, anyone care to critique?

Day 1
1. Sidley Austin
2. MoFo (with how low their average is I feel like its close to get them at 2, maybe put Proskauer here since they are more in your grade range and move down substantially)
3. Proskauer Rose
4. Latham
5. Paul Hastings
6. Wilkie
7. Kasowitz
8. Milbank
9. Fried Frank (should be significantly higher - I would put 4 or 5)
10. Cahill (I would move right below Fried Frank, I would at have my 567 be FF/Wilkie/Cahill)
11. Greenberg (too few interview slots to get at 11)
12. Stroock (too few slots to get here)
13. Debevoise
14. Cravath

Day 2 (Where is Paul Weiss? I feel like that is a good reach firm to have)
1. Ropes & Gray
2. WilmerHale
3. Alston & Bird (no way you get this at 3 due to their very low GPA/20 slots)
4. K&L Gates (such a small summer class that I wouldn't rank this high)
5. Jones Day (I would put 3r)
6. Chadbourn
7. White & Case (I would put 4)
8. Akin (I would put 7)
9. Freshfields
10. Simpson Thatcher
11. Shearman (I would put 5/6)
12. Cadwalader (this should be way higher - 5 or 6 probably)
13. Clifford Chance

Day 3
1. Skadden (too much of a reach - I would go with Weil)
2. Kirkland (put either this or Weil 1, and the other 2)
3. A&O
4. Weil
5. Linklaters
6. Orrick
7. Cleary (DC)
8. Perkins Coie
9. Blank Rome

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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