2014 University of Virginia OGI Thread Forum

[Law Sauce]

If you're trying for DC, is there anything you can do prior to OGI to improve your chances? Almost all of the firms I'm interested in are coming here in August, so I'm not really sure what (if anything) I should be doing to reach out to DC firms during June and July. I was planning on just using this time to reach out to firms in secondary markets instead.

Thanks in advance!

Thats probably how I'd play it. Could try to reach out to alums with basic questions about the firm/practice area etc. Its possible this could help you in an interview come August (better understanding of firm / namedropping etc.). Part of this whole process is just trying to get comfortable with talking/small-talking biglaw/interview speech.

We are close enough to DC you could try to meet with a few alums for lunch or something if you really wanted to be aggressive, but I also do not think that it would hurt you to do nothing in DC until OGI.

Others may have something to add.

[Anonymous User]

Elder UVA-ers, guide me.

3.51, want DC. Plan on bidding half NY and half DC, and taking advantage of a career fair in a southern market. Have ties to the south (not in that market).

Seem like a good plan? I really want DC, but should I tread more lightly? It could I even shade more towards DC?

Signed,
DC4ME

I know people who have done well at top DC firms with lower grades, so it can be done, but at the top tier of DC firms, its a long shot. Can't tell you how to split your bids, but you definitely should both 1. go for DC if thats what you really want and 2. have one or more solid backup plans. If have ties to some smaller markets in the south, try to get some pre-OGI interviews there by emailing and asking (with resume and transcript). Pursue everything until you have at least one offer.

Ultimately I am going to the city where I get a job, but if I have the option to pick between firms I am really only concerned with (1) location (2) offer rate of summers. (I.e I am not concerned with how prestigious a firm is, as long as it is market paying Biglaw firm that isn't going to blow away.)

As in, I would be perfectly content bidding "lower" DC firms (assuming they pay market) if it means I can be in DC. Should I just do that? Or am I screwing myself out of some abstract form of prestige/exit options?

-DC4ME

[Law Sauce]

Elder UVA-ers, guide me.

3.51, want DC. Plan on bidding half NY and half DC, and taking advantage of a career fair in a southern market. Have ties to the south (not in that market).

Seem like a good plan? I really want DC, but should I tread more lightly? It could I even shade more towards DC?

Signed,
DC4ME

I know people who have done well at top DC firms with lower grades, so it can be done, but at the top tier of DC firms, its a long shot. Can't tell you how to split your bids, but you definitely should both 1. go for DC if thats what you really want and 2. have one or more solid backup plans. If have ties to some smaller markets in the south, try to get some pre-OGI interviews there by emailing and asking (with resume and transcript). Pursue everything until you have at least one offer.

Ultimately I am going to the city where I get a job, but if I have the option to pick between firms I am really only concerned with (1) location (2) offer rate of summers. (I.e I am not concerned with how prestigious a firm is, as long as it is market paying Biglaw firm that isn't going to blow away.)

As in, I would be perfectly content bidding "lower" DC firms (assuming they pay market) if it means I can be in DC. Should I just do that? Or am I screwing myself out of some abstract form of prestige/exit options?

-DC4ME

Yea thats what I meant, bid DC firms, but avoid a few of the most selective firms.

Also, I do think that you have a good shot in DC with your grades. Its not a total long shot at all for DC generally. But its common sense that you should also have a backup plan

I wouldn't really worry too much about exit ops/prestige (at least within similar types of firms)

[bluecrab5448]

If you're trying for DC, is there anything you can do prior to OGI to improve your chances? Almost all of the firms I'm interested in are coming here in August, so I'm not really sure what (if anything) I should be doing to reach out to DC firms during June and July. I was planning on just using this time to reach out to firms in secondary markets instead.

Thanks in advance!

I would see if there are UVA alumni in those DC firms (this actually applies to other markets too) who are relatively junior, and email them to see if they are available for coffee or a very brief meet-up. You can pull these names from a quick directory search. Be polite and understanding of their time and stress that you've heard great things about their firm so you were wondering if they had a half hour to chat after work. If they're not weird or antisocial, they will say yes or if they are truly pressed for time, they will give you their office number.

This way, when the interviewer asks you "Why X firm," you can say you spoke to so-and-so, an associate in X department, who said they are currently working on High Profile case, which sounded interesting, etc. etc. It's a tad transparent, but it does show that you took some initiative beyond just reading the Chambers Associate profile of the firm.

EDIT: scooped by Law Sauce!

[Anonymous User]

3.37, international background, wants NYC, advice?thanks!

[Anonymous User]

To the int'l 3.37: Expound more on the general region that you're from, the practice groups you're looking at...and whether you have interests in working overseas.

There's a big difference between someone from Shanghai, Seoul, Saudi Arabia, London, or Kiev. Some int'l backgrounds are more valuable than others, especially if you are aiming for transactional work. If you're doing litigation, then it may be a different story. 3.37 is just about median, so you need to interview well in order to get callbacks and offers--but it's not impossible. You need a good story and a good reason why you want to go to NY.

[Anonymous User]

Isn't KD just keep insisting that 3.30 is the median?

[Anonymous User]

I know this might be a silly question, but does anyone have good networking/informational interview questions? I know these should be somewhat customized to the person you're talking to but I am having a hard time getting the ball rolling because I hate "networking" but know that hustling this summer can make all the difference - even questions that you found worked for you would be helpful for getting a list of questions started.

Also - any tips on what to say in networking emails would also be appreciated!

Signed,
Shy Networker

[Anonymous User]

3.29 here, does anyone have any information on the nova/richmond firms? Many of them aren't on vault/chambers. Are these firms possibly obtainable for me if I have ties? Thanks

[Yardbird]

Isn't KD just keep insisting that 3.30 is the median?

I hope he is, but there is a chance that because of electives and how the median for those isn't necessarily a 3.3, the actual median for the class could potentially be (slightly) higher that a 3.3.

[Trout et al]

Isn't KD just keep insisting that 3.30 is the median?

I hope he is, but there is a chance that because of electives and how the median for those isn't necessarily a 3.3, the actual median for the class could potentially be (slightly) higher that a 3.3.

Are GPA percentiles going to be communicated at some point?

[First Offense]

Isn't KD just keep insisting that 3.30 is the median?

I hope he is, but there is a chance that because of electives and how the median for those isn't necessarily a 3.3, the actual median for the class could potentially be (slightly) higher that a 3.3.

Are GPA percentiles going to be communicated at some point?

I thought they kept that under wraps for the most part, beyond the Law Review cut-off? I could be way off on that, though.

[Yardbird]

Isn't KD just keep insisting that 3.30 is the median?

I hope he is, but there is a chance that because of electives and how the median for those isn't necessarily a 3.3, the actual median for the class could potentially be (slightly) higher that a 3.3.

Are GPA percentiles going to be communicated at some point?

I thought they kept that under wraps for the most part, beyond the Law Review cut-off? I could be way off on that, though.

That's what I heard too. The law review cutoff for our class will be roughly top 6.94%. I doubt they'll let us or employers know anything beyond that.

[cfr1225]

3.29 here, does anyone have any information on the nova/richmond firms? Many of them aren't on vault/chambers. Are these firms possibly obtainable for me if I have ties? Thanks

I know several people from the Richmond area with much better grades than that who struck out in that market. From what I heard from them, many of their interviewers weren't satisfied with ties - they wanted you to really want to be be there.

Maybe they were all crappy interviewers or whatever else, but those are the only data points I can offer.

[Anonymous User]

I hope he is, but there is a chance that because of electives and how the median for those isn't necessarily a 3.3, the actual median for the class could potentially be (slightly) higher that a 3.3.

Are GPA percentiles going to be communicated at some point?

I thought they kept that under wraps for the most part, beyond the Law Review cut-off? I could be way off on that, though.

That's what I heard too. The law review cutoff for our class will be roughly top 6.94%. I doubt they'll let us or employers know anything beyond that.

Percentiles? No, probably not. You'll know top 6.94, and you'll eventually know top 3.47, as VLR posts both numbers outside the VLR office.

CSO keeps a very comprehensive list of the GPA ranges for each firm, both for pre-selects and for callbacks. Unless there's been even more GPA tomfoolery Geis and Co. haven't disclosed, your curve should look like the curve from last year. While CSO didn't let me peruse the list, they did go through my tentative bid list, comparing it with the spreadsheet, to ensure that I wasn't bidding like an idiot.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, ties are important for all markets. NYC is an exception to the rule, but they will still ask the question. DC is also somewhat of a lesser exception, but you need a solid answer as to "Why DC." I think Chicago is in the same boat as DC. But for TX, VA, Cali, Seattle, Philadelphia, Boston, and other markets, one needs strong ties to iron-clad ties. An example is Austin, TX--even a Houston or Dallas native probably would not have a chance despite having stellar grades.

The lesson to be learned is to always have a good story. For these secondary markets, ties are incredibly important. For primary markets like DC (and NYC, even though there's more room for error), grades are more important. Think of it as a sliding scale.

[Anonymous User]

3.29 here, does anyone have any information on the nova/richmond firms? Many of them aren't on vault/chambers. Are these firms possibly obtainable for me if I have ties? Thanks

Recent grad here, had a 3.3 at the end of 1L and applied to the Richmond firms with ties and these are my impressions. Ended up with a couple callbacks, no offers, but was still on hold at 1 when I accepted an offer in another market.

Hunton: I think normally looks for people with better grades. Put it in your top 10 if you want a shot when you're bidding. I put all the Richmond firms at the bottom of the bidlist and then missed out on them b/c they didn't pre-select me and didn't take my special request.

McGuire: I also think normally looks for people with better grades. I got a pre-select from them, but only because they had 3 interview rooms and interviewed like 60 people. Didn't get a callback.

Troutman/williams mullen/LeClair/Hirschler/Sands Anderson/McCandlish Holton/Spotts Fain: Had better luck here and got a couple callbacks so they are definitely possible if you interview well. Problem is none of those firms keeps a summer class of more than like 3-4 people at most so there is still stiff competition from everyone else at UVA as well as top of class W&M, W&L, and U of R people. I'd say there are probably no more than 25 SA spots in Richmond in total, which makes it not that easy to grab one.

[WahooLaw24]

What do the 6.94 and 3.47 cutoffs represent exactly?

[sundance95]

1st is the first-year grade-on cutoff. 2nd is the transfer grade-on cutoff, if I'm not mistaken.

[Anonymous User]

Just thinking about our new grading policies--imagine transferring from elsewhere and then going into a school with a median >3.4 (say, 3.45) and 25% >3.6 (3.7?).

Big advantage over the original UVa law students.

[Anonymous User]

3.29 here, does anyone have any information on the nova/richmond firms? Many of them aren't on vault/chambers. Are these firms possibly obtainable for me if I have ties? Thanks

Recent grad here, had a 3.3 at the end of 1L and applied to the Richmond firms with ties and these are my impressions. Ended up with a couple callbacks, no offers, but was still on hold at 1 when I accepted an offer in another market.

Hunton: I think normally looks for people with better grades. Put it in your top 10 if you want a shot when you're bidding. I put all the Richmond firms at the bottom of the bidlist and then missed out on them b/c they didn't pre-select me and didn't take my special request.

McGuire: I also think normally looks for people with better grades. I got a pre-select from them, but only because they had 3 interview rooms and interviewed like 60 people. Didn't get a callback.

Troutman/Williams Mullen/LeClair/Hirschler/Sands Anderson/McCandlish Holton/Spotts Fain: Had better luck here and got a couple callbacks so they are definitely possible if you interview well. Problem is none of those firms keeps a summer class of more than like 3-4 people at most so there is still stiff competition from everyone else at UVA as well as top of class W&M, W&L, and U of R people. I'd say there are probably no more than 25 SA spots in Richmond in total, which makes it not that easy to grab one.

thanks for the great info, do you have any experience with the nova firms? They've all got tiny class sizes (1-3) so im assuming it would be a waste to bid on them for ogi with a 3.29

[Anonymous User]

If you're trying for DC, is there anything you can do prior to OGI to improve your chances? Almost all of the firms I'm interested in are coming here in August, so I'm not really sure what (if anything) I should be doing to reach out to DC firms during June and July. I was planning on just using this time to reach out to firms in secondary markets instead.

Thanks in advance!

Thats probably how I'd play it. Could try to reach out to alums with basic questions about the firm/practice area etc. Its possible this could help you in an interview come August (better understanding of firm / namedropping etc.). Part of this whole process is just trying to get comfortable with talking/small-talking biglaw/interview speech.

We are close enough to DC you could try to meet with a few alums for lunch or something if you really wanted to be aggressive, but I also do not think that it would hurt you to do nothing in DC until OGI.

Others may have something to add.

Mathematically, if it helps another person at another school get an SA in DC it will hurt you as there's a finite # of positions, and they're hiring people more than they're hiring schools. Networking at DC can both help and hurt. It will hurt if people don't like you, but help if they do. People affiliated with UVA who care enough to have lunch or go to a networking event are wanting to like you so it's more likely to be beneficial. Small things can be everything. People with good grades who do everything right strike out all the time. It's not all grades and answering the questions correctly. You're being offered/no offered based off of the collective gut of a few people. Generally, people aren't going to generate strong reactions. Tim, the senior associate down the hall at the Keurig machine putting in a good word can be why you get your offer. My experience was don't sell networking. There's nothing else that could help you more at this point except getting the resumes and cover letters put together. Bidding was overblown because most of your offers will come from preselects with some exceptions each year. The unfortunate thing is unless you have a 4.0, and are all American there's no science.

[plenipotentiary]

If you're trying for DC, is there anything you can do prior to OGI to improve your chances? Almost all of the firms I'm interested in are coming here in August, so I'm not really sure what (if anything) I should be doing to reach out to DC firms during June and July. I was planning on just using this time to reach out to firms in secondary markets instead.

Thanks in advance!

Thats probably how I'd play it. Could try to reach out to alums with basic questions about the firm/practice area etc. Its possible this could help you in an interview come August (better understanding of firm / namedropping etc.). Part of this whole process is just trying to get comfortable with talking/small-talking biglaw/interview speech.

We are close enough to DC you could try to meet with a few alums for lunch or something if you really wanted to be aggressive, but I also do not think that it would hurt you to do nothing in DC until OGI.

Others may have something to add.

Mathematically, if it helps another person at another school get an SA in DC it will hurt you as there's a finite # of positions, and they're hiring people more than they're hiring schools. Networking at DC can both help and hurt. It will hurt if people don't like you, but help if they do. People affiliated with UVA who care enough to have lunch or go to a networking event are wanting to like you so it's more likely to be beneficial. Small things can be everything. People with good grades who do everything right strike out all the time. It's not all grades and answering the questions correctly. You're being offered/no offered based off of the collective gut of a few people. Generally, people aren't going to generate strong reactions. Tim, the senior associate down the hall at the Keurig machine putting in a good word can be why you get your offer. My experience was don't sell networking. There's nothing else that could help you more at this point except getting the resumes and cover letters put together. Bidding was overblown because most of your offers will come from preselects with some exceptions each year. The unfortunate thing is unless you have a 4.0, and are all American there's no science.

This is defeatist bullshit.

Maybe my definition of “do[ing] everything right” is more expansive than yours, but people with good grades who “do everything right” get offers pretty much all the time. Doing everything right includes having a well-crafted (error-free) resume/cover letter, actually practicing your interviewing, going to job fairs, networking, bidding intelligently, and not dressing like an idiot.

Also, do you have any actual data on whether most offers come from preselects? Just curious.

[DMXdawg]

Everyone I know who could dress well, interview relatively well, had near-median grades, and prepared adequately has a job from UVa. Just treat it seriously, and most likely you'll have a good outcome.

[5ky]

If you're trying for DC, is there anything you can do prior to OGI to improve your chances? Almost all of the firms I'm interested in are coming here in August, so I'm not really sure what (if anything) I should be doing to reach out to DC firms during June and July. I was planning on just using this time to reach out to firms in secondary markets instead.

Thanks in advance!

Thats probably how I'd play it. Could try to reach out to alums with basic questions about the firm/practice area etc. Its possible this could help you in an interview come August (better understanding of firm / namedropping etc.). Part of this whole process is just trying to get comfortable with talking/small-talking biglaw/interview speech.

We are close enough to DC you could try to meet with a few alums for lunch or something if you really wanted to be aggressive, but I also do not think that it would hurt you to do nothing in DC until OGI.

Others may have something to add.

Mathematically, if it helps another person at another school get an SA in DC it will hurt you as there's a finite # of positions, and they're hiring people more than they're hiring schools. Networking at DC can both help and hurt. It will hurt if people don't like you, but help if they do. People affiliated with UVA who care enough to have lunch or go to a networking event are wanting to like you so it's more likely to be beneficial. Small things can be everything. People with good grades who do everything right strike out all the time. It's not all grades and answering the questions correctly. You're being offered/no offered based off of the collective gut of a few people. Generally, people aren't going to generate strong reactions. Tim, the senior associate down the hall at the Keurig machine putting in a good word can be why you get your offer. My experience was don't sell networking. There's nothing else that could help you more at this point except getting the resumes and cover letters put together. Bidding was overblown because most of your offers will come from preselects with some exceptions each year. The unfortunate thing is unless you have a 4.0, and are all American there's no science.

This is defeatist bullshit.

Maybe my definition of “do[ing] everything right” is more expansive than yours, but people with good grades who “do everything right” get offers pretty much all the time. Doing everything right includes having a well-crafted (error-free) resume/cover letter, actually practicing your interviewing, going to job fairs, networking, bidding intelligently, and not dressing like an idiot.

Also, do you have any actual data on whether most offers come from preselects? Just curious.

1. I agree that is way more negative than is actually the case.

2. KD has said in the past that there's not a significant difference between preselects and lottery interviews when it comes to getting callbacks. Not sure how true it is, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were fairly close. The statement that most offers come from preselects is clearly BS; once you're at the callback stage, grades are significantly less important.