Lawyers tell you how to get no offered. Forum

[ChardPennington]

Post confidential case information on facebook, causing a mistrial.

Holy shit.

Supposively a Berkeley student did this a few years ago. Or it might just be a story the CDO told to scare us.

If true this is amazing, but if we assume that ATL definitely would have covered this, then it might be an urban legend.

[El Pollito]

I mean, fucking around with firm letterhead is pretty bad.

[ChardPennington]

Make your cocaine habit obvious.

Someone already mentioned megaposting.

[Anonymous User]

Somuch of this thread can be summarized as "these are crazy things I've seen happen". While they are hilarious, they're not particularly useful, because (a) don't be crazy is advice everyone already knows and (b) if you're crazy, being told not to be crazy ain't gonna help.

So I'm going to share some situations I've seen that were real, not crazy, and lead to no offers. Hopefully these might actually be helpful to people.

(1) (Generally) keep your dick in your pants. A summer embarked on a relationship with another summer. Nothing wrong there, right? WRONG. Girl be crazy. Girl say things. Firm want to wash hands of it, regardless of fault. No offer.

Lots of people hook up over the summer, lots of people do it with zero consequences. But it is a risk. If she's awesome enough it may be worth it. But never forget the potential - if unlikely - downside to taking your Little Summer Associate out to play with someone from work.

(2) Listen. Summer I knew wanted to be in the tax group. Did mostly tax assignments during the first half of the summer. At the midsummer review, he was told "hey, we're not going to be taking many folks in tax this year, maybe you want to try some corporate assignments. His response? He asked for EVEN MORE tax assignments because he wanted a second chance to prove that he belonged. No offer.

Your firm is not going to tell you point blank, "Hey, we dont like you much." It will be coded. Listen for - and force yourself to focus on - negative feedback. Treat it seriously. Don't be a hero - if they say, "Hey, have you thought about litigation wink wink", then develop an undying love for litigation. Even if you dont want to do litigation, its a LOT better to look for a new job with a real offer in your pocket than to be hustling to avoid unemployment.

(3) When in Rome. Summer I knew was invited to a partner's yacht club for a sunday on the boat, followed by lunch in the clubhouse. Summer, for whatever reason, had brought only sneakers and "dress" work shoes with him to NY. It was obvious that he needed to wear boat shoes or some other similar sort of casual-but-not-sneakers shoes. He asked us what he should do. We told him to suck it up and buy a cheap pair of boat shoes at Century 21 or the like. He said it was unfair that he should have to spend $50 for shoes he didnt want.

He showed up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords. No offer. (To be fair, he had other social issues and this was just a symptom of those. But you get the point.)

Your job for the summer is to, well, get a job. If they say jump, jump. If they say deck shoes, deck shoes. $50 (or $100, or $150) is a small price to pay to make sure that things go smoothly and you get your offer. Again, if you don't like it you can always look elsewhere, but you want the offer in hand when you 3L recruit. Always make sure you get the offer, even if you have to eat a little sh-t.

[Nebby]

Number 1 is hella sexist.

[Anonymous User]

I mean, fucking around with firm letterhead is pretty bad.

Counterpoint: YOLO

-Chad

[brazleton]

.

[worldtraveler]

Mail joke letters on firm letterhead. Get address wrong so it's returned to the mall room.

I have confirmed with Chad that he addressed the letter correctly, but the intended recipient was out of town, causing his apartment mailbox to be full at the time that the Cease and Desist letter regarding persistent elevator farting was mailed. Curiously, the letter was returned to sender instead of sent to the post office for pickup. Less curiously, Chad's summer employer was nonplussed.

ETA: Chad was assured, credibly, that his no-offer was due to the economic condition of the firm, and the subsequent semi-implosion of the firm would appear to bolster this explanation. Nevertheless, the farting-relating C&D letter, along with a few similar faux pauxs, make Chad consider to this day whether he would have received an offer even if the firm were in sterling economic health.

How exactly do you know Chad?

[rpupkin]

(3) When in Rome. Summer I knew was invited to a partner's yacht club for a sunday on the boat, followed by lunch in the clubhouse. Summer, for whatever reason, had brought only sneakers and "dress" work shoes with him to NY. It was obvious that he needed to wear boat shoes or some other similar sort of casual-but-not-sneakers shoes. He asked us what he should do. We told him to suck it up and buy a cheap pair of boat shoes at Century 21 or the like. He said it was unfair that he should have to spend $50 for shoes he didnt want.

He showed up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords. No offer. (To be fair, he had other social issues and this was just a symptom of those. But you get the point.)

Actually, I don't get the point. Maybe my meager middle class existence shielded me from the finer points of yachting, but I don't even know what "boat shoes" are. And I would not find it "obvious" that one should not wear sneakers on a boat. If the most asocial thing this summer did was "show up up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords" to a social event on a boat on a Sunday, then I think the problem was with the elitist douches at the firm, not with the summer.

[NYSprague]

(3) When in Rome. Summer I knew was invited to a partner's yacht club for a sunday on the boat, followed by lunch in the clubhouse. Summer, for whatever reason, had brought only sneakers and "dress" work shoes with him to NY. It was obvious that he needed to wear boat shoes or some other similar sort of casual-but-not-sneakers shoes. He asked us what he should do. We told him to suck it up and buy a cheap pair of boat shoes at Century 21 or the like. He said it was unfair that he should have to spend $50 for shoes he didnt want.

He showed up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords. No offer. (To be fair, he had other social issues and this was just a symptom of those. But you get the point.)

Actually, I don't get the point. Maybe my meager middle class existence shielded me from the finer points of yachting, but I don't even know what "boat shoes" are. And I would not find it "obvious" that one should not wear sneakers on a boat. If the most asocial thing this summer did was "show up up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords" to a social event on a boat on a Sunday, then I think the problem was with the elitist douches at the firm, not with the summer.

If you don't know what to.wear, ask. People will help you, you could even call the club to find out the dress code. Lots of options.Spend the money to get what you need, but you don't have to have expensive stuff.
He might have been ok with sneakers, but it sounds like he was advised what to do and didn't listen. You need to not embarrass yourself and the partner.

This is really important. Just fit in and act like you belong. I don't know how to explain it better than that.

[09042014]

(3) When in Rome. Summer I knew was invited to a partner's yacht club for a sunday on the boat, followed by lunch in the clubhouse. Summer, for whatever reason, had brought only sneakers and "dress" work shoes with him to NY. It was obvious that he needed to wear boat shoes or some other similar sort of casual-but-not-sneakers shoes. He asked us what he should do. We told him to suck it up and buy a cheap pair of boat shoes at Century 21 or the like. He said it was unfair that he should have to spend $50 for shoes he didnt want.

He showed up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords. No offer. (To be fair, he had other social issues and this was just a symptom of those. But you get the point.)

Actually, I don't get the point. Maybe my meager middle class existence shielded me from the finer points of yachting, but I don't even know what "boat shoes" are. And I would not find it "obvious" that one should not wear sneakers on a boat. If the most asocial thing this summer did was "show up up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords" to a social event on a boat on a Sunday, then I think the problem was with the elitist douches at the firm, not with the summer.

If you don't know what to.wear, ask. Spend the money to get what you need.
He might have been ok with sneakers but it sounds like he didn't listen.

Sneakers would have been way better than oxfords with shorts.

[jselson]

(3) When in Rome. Summer I knew was invited to a partner's yacht club for a sunday on the boat, followed by lunch in the clubhouse. Summer, for whatever reason, had brought only sneakers and "dress" work shoes with him to NY. It was obvious that he needed to wear boat shoes or some other similar sort of casual-but-not-sneakers shoes. He asked us what he should do. We told him to suck it up and buy a cheap pair of boat shoes at Century 21 or the like. He said it was unfair that he should have to spend $50 for shoes he didnt want.

He showed up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords. No offer. (To be fair, he had other social issues and this was just a symptom of those. But you get the point.)

Actually, I don't get the point. Maybe my meager middle class existence shielded me from the finer points of yachting, but I don't even know what "boat shoes" are. And I would not find it "obvious" that one should not wear sneakers on a boat. If the most asocial thing this summer did was "show up up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords" to a social event on a boat on a Sunday, then I think the problem was with the elitist douches at the firm, not with the summer.

Do you know what Oxfords are? No one would wear them together with shorts. It'd be like wearing a blazer, dress shirt, and swimming trunks.

[SemperLegal]

(3) When in Rome. Summer I knew was invited to a partner's yacht club for a sunday on the boat, followed by lunch in the clubhouse. Summer, for whatever reason, had brought only sneakers and "dress" work shoes with him to NY. It was obvious that he needed to wear boat shoes or some other similar sort of casual-but-not-sneakers shoes. He asked us what he should do. We told him to suck it up and buy a cheap pair of boat shoes at Century 21 or the like. He said it was unfair that he should have to spend $50 for shoes he didnt want.

He showed up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords. No offer. (To be fair, he had other social issues and this was just a symptom of those. But you get the point.)

Actually, I don't get the point. Maybe my meager middle class existence shielded me from the finer points of yachting, but I don't even know what "boat shoes" are. And I would not find it "obvious" that one should not wear sneakers on a boat. If the most asocial thing this summer did was "show up up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords" to a social event on a boat on a Sunday, then I think the problem was with the elitist douches at the firm, not with the summer.

As a fellow working class schlub, this excuse no longer flew when you decided to try for a 6-figure salary. Google, dress rehearse, and ask questions, don't just blunder through social situations hoping that people take pity on you for not being an eight-generation attorney.

[Anonymous User]

Bingo! This is why this can get you in trouble. Because your job is to figure out what that elitist douche expects you to wear, and then to wear that. If its not obvious to you, you need to get smart on it; if you don't agree with it, that's your problem.

Put differently; I've never gone Croqueting in my life. If a client invited me to a croquet event this weekend, I'd be hitting the phones figuring out what the hell to wear and what to expect, etc, so I didn't look like an asshole in front of the client. If you can't be trusted to do the same for a partner at an extended job interview . . .

(3) When in Rome. Summer I knew was invited to a partner's yacht club for a sunday on the boat, followed by lunch in the clubhouse. Summer, for whatever reason, had brought only sneakers and "dress" work shoes with him to NY. It was obvious that he needed to wear boat shoes or some other similar sort of casual-but-not-sneakers shoes. He asked us what he should do. We told him to suck it up and buy a cheap pair of boat shoes at Century 21 or the like. He said it was unfair that he should have to spend $50 for shoes he didnt want.

He showed up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords. No offer. (To be fair, he had other social issues and this was just a symptom of those. But you get the point.)

Actually, I don't get the point. Maybe my meager middle class existence shielded me from the finer points of yachting, but I don't even know what "boat shoes" are. And I would not find it "obvious" that one should not wear sneakers on a boat. If the most asocial thing this summer did was "show up up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords" to a social event on a boat on a Sunday, then I think the problem was with the elitist douches at the firm, not with the summer.

[IAFG]

(3) When in Rome. Summer I knew was invited to a partner's yacht club for a sunday on the boat, followed by lunch in the clubhouse. Summer, for whatever reason, had brought only sneakers and "dress" work shoes with him to NY. It was obvious that he needed to wear boat shoes or some other similar sort of casual-but-not-sneakers shoes. He asked us what he should do. We told him to suck it up and buy a cheap pair of boat shoes at Century 21 or the like. He said it was unfair that he should have to spend $50 for shoes he didnt want.

He showed up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords. No offer. (To be fair, he had other social issues and this was just a symptom of those. But you get the point.)

Actually, I don't get the point. Maybe my meager middle class existence shielded me from the finer points of yachting, but I don't even know what "boat shoes" are. And I would not find it "obvious" that one should not wear sneakers on a boat. If the most asocial thing this summer did was "show up up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords" to a social event on a boat on a Sunday, then I think the problem was with the elitist douches at the firm, not with the summer.

So what's your excuse for not taking the advice of people who grew up in that world? No excuse. Also, bolded.

[09042014]

Guy has several aspie choices he made. First, he refused to acquire shoes on principle. Second, he didn't realize you don't wear oxfords with shorts.

[09042014]

Bingo! This is why this can get you in trouble. Because your job is to figure out what that elitist douche expects you to wear, and then to wear that. If its not obvious to you, you need to get smart on it; if you don't agree with it, that's your problem.

Put differently; I've never gone Croqueting in my life. If a client invited me to a croquet event this weekend, I'd be hitting the phones figuring out what the hell to wear and what to expect, etc, so I didn't look like an asshole in front of the client. If you can't be trusted to do the same for a partner at an extended job interview . . .

(3) When in Rome. Summer I knew was invited to a partner's yacht club for a sunday on the boat, followed by lunch in the clubhouse. Summer, for whatever reason, had brought only sneakers and "dress" work shoes with him to NY. It was obvious that he needed to wear boat shoes or some other similar sort of casual-but-not-sneakers shoes. He asked us what he should do. We told him to suck it up and buy a cheap pair of boat shoes at Century 21 or the like. He said it was unfair that he should have to spend $50 for shoes he didnt want.

He showed up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords. No offer. (To be fair, he had other social issues and this was just a symptom of those. But you get the point.)

Actually, I don't get the point. Maybe my meager middle class existence shielded me from the finer points of yachting, but I don't even know what "boat shoes" are. And I would not find it "obvious" that one should not wear sneakers on a boat. If the most asocial thing this summer did was "show up up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords" to a social event on a boat on a Sunday, then I think the problem was with the elitist douches at the firm, not with the summer.

Don't give advice about manners when you can't quote correctly.

[NYSprague]

Guy has several aspie choices he made. First, he refused to acquire shoes on principle. Second, he didn't realize you don't wear oxfords with shorts.

Also somehow failed to grasp that Yacht Club has a dress code, after being warned.

[84651846190]

The guy was an idiot for not following directions regarding what to wear. Just drop $30 on a shitty pair of boat shoes for Christ's sake.

In his defense, however, anyone who regularly goes boating and belongs to a yacht club with a strict dress code should be gassed.

[El Pollito]

He probably could have worn them once and returned them. What a dumbass.

[SemperLegal]

The guy was an idiot for not following directions regarding what to wear. Just drop $30 on a shitty pair of boat shoes for Christ's sake.

In his defense, however, anyone who regularly goes boating and belongs to a yacht club with a strict dress code should be gassed.

Well to be fair, some shoes will fuck up a deck pretty bad and tennis shoes aren't great for walking on wet surfaces.

[84651846190]

The guy was an idiot for not following directions regarding what to wear. Just drop $30 on a shitty pair of boat shoes for Christ's sake.

In his defense, however, anyone who regularly goes boating and belongs to a yacht club with a strict dress code should be gassed.

Well to be fair, some shoes will fuck up a deck pretty bad and tennis shoes aren't great for walking on wet surfaces.

I was referring more to the fact that spending that much money/time on a stupid fucking boat makes you a Boomer or Boomer sympathizer who should be immediately marched off to the guillotines.*

*said execution would no longer be necessary if proceeds from selling the boat were used to pay off my student loans

[rpupkin]

(3) When in Rome. Summer I knew was invited to a partner's yacht club for a sunday on the boat, followed by lunch in the clubhouse. Summer, for whatever reason, had brought only sneakers and "dress" work shoes with him to NY. It was obvious that he needed to wear boat shoes or some other similar sort of casual-but-not-sneakers shoes. He asked us what he should do. We told him to suck it up and buy a cheap pair of boat shoes at Century 21 or the like. He said it was unfair that he should have to spend $50 for shoes he didnt want.

He showed up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords. No offer. (To be fair, he had other social issues and this was just a symptom of those. But you get the point.)

Actually, I don't get the point. Maybe my meager middle class existence shielded me from the finer points of yachting, but I don't even know what "boat shoes" are. And I would not find it "obvious" that one should not wear sneakers on a boat. If the most asocial thing this summer did was "show up up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords" to a social event on a boat on a Sunday, then I think the problem was with the elitist douches at the firm, not with the summer.

So what's your excuse for not taking the advice of people who grew up in that world? No excuse. Also, bolded.

Yep, I saw the bolded. That's why I qualified my final sentence with "if the most asocial thing this summer did was . . . ." The poster sharing the story seemed to think this example was particularly egregious (or particularly representative of the social issues this guy had).

As for ignoring the dress code, it's not like the guy ignored the partner's instructions. He didn't like the advice he was getting from his fellow summers. I agree that he should've followed their advice and bought some cheap boat shoes. And I'm sure he looked silly in shorts and formal shoes. But to me, at least, this "mistake" doesn't really fit in with the other offenses catalogued in this thread. Maybe it's because my experience has been with litigation practices and firms in California, where partners (even very rich ones) are generally informal. I summered at two firms, and I can't imagine a partner at either firm caring about something like this. At most, someone might playfully make fun of the guy.

[Anonymous User]

(3) When in Rome. Summer I knew was invited to a partner's yacht club for a sunday on the boat, followed by lunch in the clubhouse. Summer, for whatever reason, had brought only sneakers and "dress" work shoes with him to NY. It was obvious that he needed to wear boat shoes or some other similar sort of casual-but-not-sneakers shoes. He asked us what he should do. We told him to suck it up and buy a cheap pair of boat shoes at Century 21 or the like. He said it was unfair that he should have to spend $50 for shoes he didnt want.

He showed up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords. No offer. (To be fair, he had other social issues and this was just a symptom of those. But you get the point.)

Actually, I don't get the point. Maybe my meager middle class existence shielded me from the finer points of yachting, but I don't even know what "boat shoes" are. And I would not find it "obvious" that one should not wear sneakers on a boat. If the most asocial thing this summer did was "show up up in shorts, a polo, and shiny oxfords" to a social event on a boat on a Sunday, then I think the problem was with the elitist douches at the firm, not with the summer.

So what's your excuse for not taking the advice of people who grew up in that world? No excuse. Also, bolded.

Yep, I saw the bolded. That's why I qualified my final sentence with "if the most asocial thing this summer did was . . . ." The poster sharing the story seemed to think this example was particularly egregious (or particularly representative of the social issues this guy had).

As for ignoring the dress code, it's not like the guy ignored the partner's instructions. He didn't like the advice he was getting from his fellow summers. I agree that he should've followed their advice and bought some cheap boat shoes. And I'm sure he looked silly in shorts and formal shoes. But to me, at least, this "mistake" doesn't really fit in with the other offenses catalogued in this thread. Maybe it's because my experience has been with litigation practices and firms in California, where partners (even very rich ones) are generally informal. I summered at two firms, and I can't imagine a partner at either firm caring about something like this. At most, someone might playfully make fun of the guy.

But that's the whole point, dooder. As a summer, your job is to figure out what your particular firm wants out of you and then to do that. If you're at a white shoe NY firm, buy your deck shoes. If you're hanging out at an event in CA, deck shoes may make you look like the worlds biggest asshole.

The point is to figure out what you need to do to fit in, and then do that, regardless of whether it's objectively deuchey or fair. 'Specially if your second year officemate explains to you exactly what to do.

[TelegramSam]

Just do ruin a guy's life because he didn't wear the right shoes. Totally reasonable