V5 first year - corp taking ? s before considering quitting Forum

[thesealocust]

Personally, I believe that prestige is a 4-letter word in the abstract. But in this specific context, there's something to it - lawyers are important and well paid because they are licensed to handle matter of insanely high consequences, and the measure of the consequences is in some meaningful way a measure of the lawyer. Firms in big cities get legal work from people and companies around the world because they have the talent and the insane devotion to get things done, and there's a real difference between them and firms that compete for local business.

Is that difference meaningful you in a personal way? How many dollars is it worth? How many sleepless nights and ruined friendships? Will that difference help you sleep at night, or will it give you an anxiety disorder? Does happiness have anything to do with the number of zeroes that are at the top of your prospectus supplements or in the verdicts handed down by your juries?

Very fair and valid questions to ask, but not good to be written off entirely as "lol look at those silly big city law-talkin' folk."

Nobody sits around thinking about Olympic athlete training / life balance. Some things in life aren't and never will be balanced, and biglaw in big cities at firms with distressingly low vault rankings is one of them. For better or for worse.

[rayiner]

Personally, I believe that prestige is a 4-letter word in the abstract. But in this specific context, there's something to it - lawyers are important and well paid because they are licensed to handles matter of insanely high consequences, and the measure of the consequences is in some meaningful way a measure of the lawyer. Firms in big cities get legal work from people and companies around the country because they have the talent and the insane devotion to get things done, and there's a real difference between them and firms that compete for local business.

Is that difference meaningful? Will that difference help you sleep at night, or will it give you an anxiety disorder? Does happiness have anything to do with the number of zeroes that are at the top of your prospectus supplements or in the verdicts handed down by your juries?

Very fair and valid questions to ask, but not good to be written off entirely as "lol look at those silly big city law-talkin' folk"

Here's the thing for transactional work. By volume, it's mostly finance, and it's a prestige-focused, NYC-focused industry. That's why you go put in your time at an NYC firm.

[Cicero76]

Personally, I believe that prestige is a 4-letter word in the abstract. But in this specific context, there's something to it - lawyers are important and well paid because they are licensed to handles matter of insanely high consequences, and the measure of the consequences is in some meaningful way a measure of the lawyer. Firms in big cities get legal work from people and companies around the world because they have the talent and the insane devotion to get things done, and there's a real difference between them and firms that compete for local business.

Is that difference meaningful? Will that difference help you sleep at night, or will it give you an anxiety disorder? Does happiness have anything to do with the number of zeroes that are at the top of your prospectus supplements or in the verdicts handed down by your juries?

Very fair and valid questions to ask, but not good to be written off entirely as "lol look at those silly big city law-talkin' folk"

I would never dispute that the lawyers in NYC are the best in the world, and that being the best is the source of their "prestige." And working at the very top of any profession has undeniable benefits. The cost just seems so high to me.

[thesealocust]

Here's one answer to exactly that question: http://thepeoplestherapist.com/2011/04/13/not-worth-it/

No one would consider fighting Mike Tyson for ordinary money, either. And it’s not worth it for $3 million. Big law isn’t even worth it for $160k a year.

[Pulsar]

Being an associate at a V5 is very likely not the "top of [the] profession." The people at the top are the partners. The associates who do not survive that long might have actually gotten better experience and more professional development at secondary market firms. Don't drink too much kool-aid.

[thesealocust]

Being an associate at a V5 is very likely not the "top of [the] profession." The people at the top are the partners. The associates who do not survive that long might have actually gotten better experience and more professional development at secondary market firms. Don't drink too much kool-aid.

Being an associate anywhere is not likely the top of the profession, but I'd argue the "more substantive experience at smaller firms" thing is more koolaidey than the alternative point of view. The reason is that nobody wants to hire a lawyer of Generic Talent Level X, they want to hire a lawyer with the right combination of (a) brand and (b) direct experience in the matter at hand.

Source: am an attorney

[northwood]

Wow this sounds awful. Should I dodge the big city top tier firm thing altogether and go all in on a smaller market? I was leaning toward it before, and reading stuff like this makes me want to flee the northeast like none other.

At the end of the day, and at the beginning of the next you are the only one who has to look in the mirror and see your reflection. In between that time only you know how well you sleep, what your fears, goals, dreams, and satisfaction levels are. If you believe that te big city top firm lifestyle is going to make you hate yourself, then its not for you, and for your sanity you should look elsewhere, debt levels aside. If you think you are okay with that, or are unsure, then hopefully you can get a good glimpse of the work life and culture. Sure you will only see the glamour side of it, but if you look and listen all around you- you can get a better picture of what life is like at a firm.

If you know that a smaller firm, or a large firm in a smaller city is better suited for you- then by all means go for it. Prestige is great and good, but its not the end all be all. Hating and despising every second of every day of your entire work life is a punishment that no one should choose to put themselves through. While you may feel compelled to do it for a year, you should take the experience and begin searching for your next position- and jump when you get it. At the end of the day, when all is said and done what is most important to you? Figure that out, and go after it- even if your goals do not jive with your peers.. Because after all, only you have to walk your life in your shoes and face yourself in the mirror and battle your thoughts during the middle of the night.

[jbagelboy]

First, no offense, but wow your ex sounds like an asshole, from your characterization of events. How could this come as a surprise to him or her? From the length of the relationship, he/she was with you when you decided to apply to law school, took the LSAT, pushed through 1L finals (which must have been hell on earth to make V5, unless you were at Yale), and presumably made the choice to work in the corporate department of a huge law firm together after OCI. Unless you sucked at presenting accurate information or faked he/her out, the person you're in a relationship with should have fucking known it would be bad, and bailing after a few months cause you work some late nights/wkends and aren't all that emotionally available is frankly a shitty move. Five years is a long time, one would think you two would have discussed it and, if the job was really creating that much tension, made a decision together to transition into something else or stick through it for the sake of the relationship.

That, or something else was going on and it was bound to die anyway.

Second, another grad on here a few months ago faced with a similar problem - first year who hated big law, high end firm work, shitty long hours and bad working conditions - and ended up networking their way into a clerkship for the spring through a former law school prof. You aren't out of school that long - maybe investigate this type of opportunity? Then you can revisit firm work coming out of the clerkship market, or decide to say fuck it altogether and try for gov work or consulting (although that's not much better). Sounds like you're convinced to the idea that this negative ethos permeates the legal services industry, so I'm not sure other white collar work is the way to go but it's possible.

Third, as others suggested, if working out is something you used to do and now you are missing it, could be pretty crucial - maybe you can slow down a little by passing on an assignment or two and get back to the gym a couple mornings a week.

Sorry it's a shitty time. This kind of stuff is making me seriously reconsider NYC

[TooOld4This]

Being an associate at a V5 is very likely not the "top of [the] profession." The people at the top are the partners. The associates who do not survive that long might have actually gotten better experience and more professional development at secondary market firms. Don't drink too much kool-aid.

Being an associate anywhere is not likely the top of the profession, but I'd argue the "more substantive experience at smaller firms" thing is more koolaidey than the alternative point of view. The reason is that nobody wants to hire a lawyer of Generic Talent Level X, they want to hire a lawyer with the right combination of (a) brand and (b) direct experience in the matter at hand.

Source: am an attorney

I just choked on my drink. Thanks for the laugh.

[westphillybandr]

Personally, I believe that prestige is a 4-letter word in the abstract. But in this specific context, there's something to it - lawyers are important and well paid because they are licensed to handle matter of insanely high consequences, and the measure of the consequences is in some meaningful way a measure of the lawyer.

I

Lawyers, generally, are unimportant. Some lawyers are important but typically not for being lawyers.
Biglawyers are not important solely because due to the fact they work in biglaw. Even at the partner level. Many, maybe even most, biglaw partners are unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

[Pulsar]

Being an associate at a V5 is very likely not the "top of [the] profession." The people at the top are the partners. The associates who do not survive that long might have actually gotten better experience and more professional development at secondary market firms. Don't drink too much kool-aid.

Being an associate anywhere is not likely the top of the profession, but I'd argue the "more substantive experience at smaller firms" thing is more koolaidey than the alternative point of view. The reason is that nobody wants to hire a lawyer of Generic Talent Level X, they want to hire a lawyer with the right combination of (a) brand and (b) direct experience in the matter at hand.

Source: am an attorney

Eh, well we can both agree/you admit that being an associate at a V5 does not make you a legal superstar. For the purposes of this thread then, "either have a life or be at the top of your profession" is not an extant choice. A lot of the way people are painting this thread is pretty flame.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not buying the whole "just don't do NYC" thing. Corporate law anywhere, if it's biglaw, is going to be similar to OP's experience.

I'm at the same point as OP, first year biglaw corporate associate with roughly 6 months under my belt, in a non-NYC east coast city - think Atlanta/Boston/Philly. OP's post is pretty damn accurate of what my experience has been in terms of hours, unpredictability, and inability to do normal things like go to the gym or maintain a healthy relationship. Things are done so remotely now that you can be billing to Goldman and JP Morgan from hundreds of miles away but still be on their schedule. Email and conference calls work just as well from a few blocks away in Manhattan as they do to a different city.

And on the flip side, you're generally working similar hours for less prestigious deals (you're on the $275 million merger instead of the $2.75 billion one, you're on the IPO for a company no ones heard of instead of on Twitter's, etc.) so your exit options won't be as sterling but it's just as much work. Your incoming cohort is also going to be smaller, so there's fewer people for them to shove more work on when things get busy. A 5th year M&A associate who lateraled from CSM/S&C/Skadden to my firm says it's definitely worse here in terms of late nights and weekends - there were just so many more people at his old massive NYC firm that when things got busy it got spread around more, and deals were typically staffed with more associates so everyone had less to do. So, basically, I'm buying what TSL is selling about the perks of being in NYC.

Basically, if you're going to do corporate law, you'll have to put up with a lifestyle where you can't control your own life. Escaping that will probably entail going to a firm that doesn't do M&A, capital markets, etc. work. Maybe it exists somewhere but I don't know where that would be.

[911 crisis actor]

OP,

How sweet does it feel when you click submit on your Seamless order?

[2014]

Do any other associates seem genuinely happy and if so do you notice any commonalities that might lead to greater satisfaction? Interested even if the commonalities suck like they are antisocial, fat, and don't seem bothered by having no time for an SO.

[Anonymous User]

First, no offense, but wow your ex sounds like an asshole, from your characterization of events. How could this come as a surprise to him or her? From the length of the relationship, he/she was with you when you decided to apply to law school, took the LSAT, pushed through 1L finals (which must have been hell on earth to make V5, unless you were at Yale), and presumably made the choice to work in the corporate department of a huge law firm together after OCI. Unless you sucked at presenting accurate information or faked he/her out, the person you're in a relationship with should have fucking known it would be bad, and bailing after a few months cause you work some late nights/wkends and aren't all that emotionally available is frankly a shitty move. Five years is a long time, one would think you two would have discussed it and, if the job was really creating that much tension, made a decision together to transition into something else or stick through it for the sake of the relationship.

That, or something else was going on and it was bound to die anyway.

Second, another grad on here a few months ago faced with a similar problem - first year who hated big law, high end firm work, shitty long hours and bad working conditions - and ended up networking their way into a clerkship for the spring through a former law school prof. You aren't out of school that long - maybe investigate this type of opportunity? Then you can revisit firm work coming out of the clerkship market, or decide to say fuck it altogether and try for gov work or consulting (although that's not much better). Sounds like you're convinced to the idea that this negative ethos permeates the legal services industry, so I'm not sure other white collar work is the way to go but it's possible.

Third, as others suggested, if working out is something you used to do and now you are missing it, could be pretty crucial - maybe you can slow down a little by passing on an assignment or two and get back to the gym a couple mornings a week.

Sorry it's a shitty time. This kind of stuff is making me seriously reconsider NYC

People don't realize the toll it takes on a relationship. For 5 years weve had a great relationship and i always heard of how it can be hard on a relationship but i never in a million years thought my relationship would be the one to falter because of big law. But, honestly it just takes a toll.

You just literally can't be there for her when she needs you and frankly, she really can't be there for you either. You can't be there for her because you get home so late and are always on call and always have other things on your mind. You can't plan things with her and if you do, half the time you have to cancel. She can't be there for you because all the time you're at work stressing out and frankly her saying comforting things over gchat or text really doesn't help... it just distracts you.

You can have an amazing relationship but when it comes to the point you aren't communicating with her, you never see each other and you aren't there for each other when you need each other, these things happen.

[Anonymous User]

Do any other associates seem genuinely happy and if so do you notice any commonalities that might lead to greater satisfaction? Interested even if the commonalities suck like they are antisocial, fat, and don't seem bothered by having no time for an SO.

Some people seem happy, i don't know about genuinely. A lot of the "happy" ones don't really have personal lives and are honestly people that probably have never had much of a personal life ever. They exist solely to come in and do work and I guess thats the commonality between a lot of the people who seem happy. They just seem to have foregone a personal life or never sought to have one.

[Anonymous User]

OP,

How sweet does it feel when you click submit on your Seamless order?

Honestly, I eat one of 5 different meals because i don't have time to look through menus and restaurants so i just click reorder. 25-30% of the time the food I order goes uneaten or gets thrown away cold because I end up having fire drills or meetings during dinner time and the food just sits there and don't have time to eat it.

[Anonymous User]

Being an associate at a V5 is very likely not the "top of [the] profession." The people at the top are the partners. The associates who do not survive that long might have actually gotten better experience and more professional development at secondary market firms. Don't drink too much kool-aid.

Being an associate anywhere is not likely the top of the profession, but I'd argue the "more substantive experience at smaller firms" thing is more koolaidey than the alternative point of view. The reason is that nobody wants to hire a lawyer of Generic Talent Level X, they want to hire a lawyer with the right combination of (a) brand and (b) direct experience in the matter at hand.

Source: am an attorney

In litigation at least, the trade-off between prestige/big clients in big cities and getting more substantive work at smaller firms is pretty real. I am a first year (second if you count class credit for clerking, which you probably shouldn't) litigation associate at a "regional biglaw" firm in a tertiary market. We have some big regional business clients, but I'll never get to work on something like Apple v. Samsung here. On the other hand, I have cases I'm essentially running, and others where I'm involved in strategy, drafting motions, appearing in court, etc. It only took about 6 months before I was getting pretty substantive work, if nothing else but because at a firm like this there just aren't enough attorneys to let the new ones languish in doc review for 1-3 years.

There's absolutely no question that I am not working at the top of the profession, but I feel like I actually spend my time at work solving problems, which is a good feeling, and my work (more often than not) satisfies me. I think I'm pretty open-eyed and Kool-aid-free and still say smaller firms likely offer more substantive work at least *for those who are content doing this type of work.*

[ChardPennington]

OP,

How sweet does it feel when you click submit on your Seamless order?

Honestly, I eat one of 5 different meals because i don't have time to look through menus and restaurants so i just click reorder. 25-30% of the time the food I order goes uneaten or gets thrown away cold because I end up having fire drills or meetings during dinner time and the food just sits there and don't have time to eat it.

Bro just eat your dinner and if anyone asks why you were five minutes late to the crisis meeting tell them you were pooping. Even the most adderaddled alpha partner isn't going to tell you not to drop a deuce.

[unc0mm0n1]

Thanks for this thread, a part of me still wondered if I made a mistake turning down my Biglaw offer. Reading accounts like yours just reinforces my belief that's it's not for me.

[Nomo]

Wow this sounds awful. Should I dodge the big city top tier firm thing altogether and go all in on a smaller market? I was leaning toward it before, and reading stuff like this makes me want to flee the northeast like none other.

Smaller markets normally come with less work and less money. But, if we're talking small offices of big firms, then there aren't many spots to go around and its much easier to get a job with the same firm in New York. If we're talking midlaw or bottom NLJ250 firms then they normally come with lower offer rates from 2L SA's.

Getting a 160k job in New York is simply an easier and safer bet than going after a 110k job in Seattle, Denver, Charlotte, or Indianapolis.

[Anonymous User]

Being an associate at a V5 is very likely not the "top of [the] profession." The people at the top are the partners. The associates who do not survive that long might have actually gotten better experience and more professional development at secondary market firms. Don't drink too much kool-aid.

Being an associate anywhere is not likely the top of the profession, but I'd argue the "more substantive experience at smaller firms" thing is more koolaidey than the alternative point of view. The reason is that nobody wants to hire a lawyer of Generic Talent Level X, they want to hire a lawyer with the right combination of (a) brand and (b) direct experience in the matter at hand.

Source: am an attorney

Tradeoff seems real to me. I'm a first year in a secondary market in corporate (fwiw, vault ranks my firm as number 1 or 2 in my market every year). In talking to friends in NYC, I think I am getting more substantive experience.

In my market, my firm is probably perceived as a high-billable firm. We often end up opposite NYC lawyers on our deals. I'm always surprised by (1) the insane hours the NYC lawyers work and (2) the number of lawyers New York offices staff to a deal. I think the second part absolutely plays a role in the amount of substantive experience a junior associate can get.

I'm not saying my schedule is wonderful, just that NYC seems to be a different level of hell.

[Anonymous User]

I finally realize why the lawyer profession is a top 2 most depressing profession (Dentist being number 1)

I knew big law was bad but I didn't realize you are basically on everyone else's time even when you don't have anything else to do

You didn't even mention having to keep time in 6 minute incruments

Thanks for the insight

[rad lulz]

OP,

How sweet does it feel when you click submit on your Seamless order?

Honestly, I eat one of 5 different meals because i don't have time to look through menus and restaurants so i just click reorder. 25-30% of the time the food I order goes uneaten or gets thrown away cold because I end up having fire drills or meetings during dinner time and the food just sits there and don't have time to eat it.

Bro just eat your dinner and if anyone asks why you were five minutes late to the crisis meeting tell them you were pooping. Even the most adderaddled alpha partner isn't going to tell you not to drop a deuce.

Bring docs to the bathroom and bill for that breh

[ChardPennington]

I finally realize why the lawyer profession is a top 2 most depressing profession (Dentist being number 1)

I knew big law was bad but I didn't realize you are basically on everyone else's time even when you don't have anything else to do

You didn't even mention having to keep time in 6 minute incruments

Thanks for the insight

Keeping time is probably the most bizarrely over-complained-about part of the job. As long as you enter your time every day it's a really minimal burden; it just sucks for the people who put it off until the end of the month and then try and piece it all together from a big pile of scribbled on post-its.