"I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..." Forum

[PepperJack]

It's the amount of work, number of hours, and deadlines which make the job so bad in general. It's the people, the bosses, the assholes, who make it absolutely toxic for some people. If you happen to work for an asshole, you are just fucked.

One of the more sadistic aspects of the job is the billable hours requirement. It's not the amount, though 2000 is too high, it's that it doesn't take into account downtime. Firm only has 50 hours of work for you in March? Better hope you have a great April. It's shitty, and makes you worry when you aren't busy. So it sucks to be busy, and sucks to be slow.

I understand why it sucks sometimes, that 200k/yr isn't stupid rich and that you don't mesh with some of the people. I'm assuming if 100k 40 hrs were there in house, you'd take it. However, maybe you just don't like the work in general?

[Anonymous User]

It's the amount of work, number of hours, and deadlines which make the job so bad in general. It's the people, the bosses, the assholes, who make it absolutely toxic for some people. If you happen to work for an asshole, you are just fucked.

One of the more sadistic aspects of the job is the billable hours requirement. It's not the amount, though 2000 is too high, it's that it doesn't take into account downtime. Firm only has 50 hours of work for you in March? Better hope you have a great April. It's shitty, and makes you worry when you aren't busy. So it sucks to be busy, and sucks to be slow.

I understand why it sucks sometimes, that 200k/yr isn't stupid rich and that you don't mesh with some of the people. I'm assuming if 100k 40 hrs were there in house, you'd take it. However, maybe you just don't like the work in general?

No one likes the work in general as a junior. I am taken aback that you think someone does. There are occasional bright spots but in general it's not interesting or important or fun work.

It's not "not meshing" with certain people, it's trying not to cry because someone somewhere between aspie and sociopath just shit all over your desk with an assignment you don't understand and refuses to answer clarifying questions in a way a normal human could use to understand the expectation.

[Danger Zone]

Holy shit, take a step back and be grateful for the opportunity you've been given.

[09042014]

It's the amount of work, number of hours, and deadlines which make the job so bad in general. It's the people, the bosses, the assholes, who make it absolutely toxic for some people. If you happen to work for an asshole, you are just fucked.

One of the more sadistic aspects of the job is the billable hours requirement. It's not the amount, though 2000 is too high, it's that it doesn't take into account downtime. Firm only has 50 hours of work for you in March? Better hope you have a great April. It's shitty, and makes you worry when you aren't busy. So it sucks to be busy, and sucks to be slow.

I understand why it sucks sometimes, that 200k/yr isn't stupid rich and that you don't mesh with some of the people. I'm assuming if 100k 40 hrs were there in house, you'd take it. However, maybe you just don't like the work in general?

I kind of like my job so far, but I've been billing like 100 hours a month because we are slow. I work with really good people, but I see colleagues get destroyed by psycho bosses. And it's not like I picked correctly, it was total luck.

The type of work is actually pretty good. It's certainly better than what I did pre law school.

There is no type of work that you would enjoy if you were expected to perform like biglawyers are. Getting blow jobs would suck if you had to cum all night to finish by Thursday morning but your partner didn't swollow it til next wednesday.

[PepperJack]

It's the amount of work, number of hours, and deadlines which make the job so bad in general. It's the people, the bosses, the assholes, who make it absolutely toxic for some people. If you happen to work for an asshole, you are just fucked.

One of the more sadistic aspects of the job is the billable hours requirement. It's not the amount, though 2000 is too high, it's that it doesn't take into account downtime. Firm only has 50 hours of work for you in March? Better hope you have a great April. It's shitty, and makes you worry when you aren't busy. So it sucks to be busy, and sucks to be slow.

I understand why it sucks sometimes, that 200k/yr isn't stupid rich and that you don't mesh with some of the people. I'm assuming if 100k 40 hrs were there in house, you'd take it. However, maybe you just don't like the work in general?

No one likes the work in general as a junior. I am taken aback that you think someone does. There are occasional bright spots but in general it's not interesting or important or fun work.

It's not "not meshing" with certain people, it's trying not to cry because someone somewhere between aspie and sociopath just shit all over your desk with an assignment you don't understand and refuses to answer clarifying questions in a way a normal human could use to understand the expectation.

Why would you cry? What do you think telemarketers, waiters, etc. have to deal with? Adults who lash out generally are either having a bad day or a mental issue not about you - just go to token script mode. I'm not saying someone does enjoy the work, but it seems like what other industries call "paying your dues" with the difference being those industries start at $0/yr (and normally involve the perk of asking you to do illegal stuff for which they're not responsible bec you're not an employee), and this pays $160k. It's not roses and daffodils, but I feel like you might not be privy of non-law firm options. I get that nobody would make a To Kill A Mocking Bird story where Atticus Finch does heroic doc review, but who cares? Just realize you're smart but not brilliant, live for your family and don't take shit so cereal.

[worldtraveler]

It's the amount of work, number of hours, and deadlines which make the job so bad in general. It's the people, the bosses, the assholes, who make it absolutely toxic for some people. If you happen to work for an asshole, you are just fucked.

One of the more sadistic aspects of the job is the billable hours requirement. It's not the amount, though 2000 is too high, it's that it doesn't take into account downtime. Firm only has 50 hours of work for you in March? Better hope you have a great April. It's shitty, and makes you worry when you aren't busy. So it sucks to be busy, and sucks to be slow.

I understand why it sucks sometimes, that 200k/yr isn't stupid rich and that you don't mesh with some of the people. I'm assuming if 100k 40 hrs were there in house, you'd take it. However, maybe you just don't like the work in general?

No one likes the work in general as a junior. I am taken aback that you think someone does. There are occasional bright spots but in general it's not interesting or important or fun work.

It's not "not meshing" with certain people, it's trying not to cry because someone somewhere between aspie and sociopath just shit all over your desk with an assignment you don't understand and refuses to answer clarifying questions in a way a normal human could use to understand the expectation.

Why would you cry? What do you think telemarketers, waiters, etc. have to deal with? Adults who lash out generally are either having a bad day or a mental issue not about you - just go to token script mode. I'm not saying someone does enjoy the work, but it seems like what other industries call "paying your dues" with the difference being those industries start at $0/yr (and normally involve the perk of asking you to do illegal stuff for which they're not responsible bec you're not an employee), and this pays $160k. It's not roses and daffodils, but I feel like you might not be privy of non-law firm options. I get that nobody would make a To Kill A Mocking Bird story where Atticus Finch does heroic doc review, but who cares? Just realize you're smart but not brilliant, live for your family and don't take shit so cereal.

Have you ever worked in big law?

[A. Nony Mouse]

This argument comes up over and over again on TLS. Someone in biglaw posts about all the things that suck in biglaw; people who are not yet working in biglaw point out how much better the job is than all the other crap jobs out there, you're paid so well, all jobs are shit, you have to put up with crappy bosses everywhere (subtext: suck it up, you special special snowflake). The biglaw people who hate it can never convince the not-yet-there people that yes, they too are entirely likely to hate it, regardless of their SA experience/pre-LS experience in consulting or banking or similarly tough professional job/pre-LS experience digging ditches or paving roads or mining coal or similarly tough non-professional job.

Personally, I find it amusing that it's always people who aren't yet in biglaw defending it (and accusing those who are in the job and hate it of special snowflakeness), but that's just me.

[IAFG]

This argument comes up over and over again on TLS. Someone in biglaw posts about all the things that suck in biglaw; people who are not yet working in biglaw point out how much better the job is than all the other crap jobs out there, you're paid so well, all jobs are shit, you have to put up with crappy bosses everywhere (subtext: suck it up, you special special snowflake). The biglaw people who hate it can never convince the not-yet-there people that yes, they too are entirely likely to hate it, regardless of their SA experience/pre-LS experience in consulting or banking or similarly tough professional job/pre-LS experience digging ditches or paving roads or mining coal or similarly tough non-professional job.

Personally, I find it amusing that it's always people who aren't yet in biglaw defending it (and accusing those who are in the job and hate it of special snowflakeness), but that's just me.

I'm mortified by how much I sounded like these idiots when I was busy being those idiots.

[nygrrrl]

I would say I did one really dumb thing: never asking an associate at a large law firm what they actually did day-to-day in a typical month. Like what it actually meant to "file a motion" or "review documents." The only thing I really understood going in (frankly, even after my summer) was what it's like to do and report on legal research.

Credited.
I am lucky in that I got pulled into a practice group that threw me enough "real" work during my SA to give me an idea of what I am facing. (As in, some real drudge work, stay-late-on-Friday-work, the stuff I'll be doing as a 1st year work - not the fun, fluffy stuff you usually do as a SA.) But who knows?
I'm an old. I've had lots of jobs, good and bad. For me, this jerb offers a solid salary, health benefits, and a terrific line on my resume. I feel lucky to have landed it. If I hate it? I'll move on. We'll see. God knows, the sociopaths I may meet in this job can't be much worse than what I've experienced in my previous jobs.

Also, what Nony said. (Meaning, wtf do I know, I don't start work until fall.)

[rayiner]

I like big law. That said:

1) The number of people targeting it is way more than the number of people who would find it acceptable in the long run;

2) Its hard if you're not a married loser and need to maintain a social life or go and try to get laid;

3) The people with no EQ make this industry way worse than it needs to be;

4) The bargain was better for more people when in-house exits existed.

[El Pollito]

I like big law. That said:

1) The number of people targeting it is way more than the number of people who would find it acceptable in the long run;

2) Its hard if you're not a married loser and need to maintain a social life or go and try to get laid;

3) The people with no EQ make this industry way worse than it needs to be;

4) The bargain was better for more people when in-house exits existed.

So much 2.

[Lincoln]

I like big law. That said:

1) The number of people targeting it is way more than the number of people who would find it acceptable in the long run;

2) Its hard if you're not a married loser and need to maintain a social life or go and try to get laid;

3) The people with no EQ make this industry way worse than it needs to be;

4) The bargain was better for more people when in-house exits existed.

This. I'm just lonely as fuck, because I don't have time to have a social life.

Also, to the (probable 0L) PepperJack: Sure, biglaw isn't per se "worse" than being a bus boy or whatever. But everything isn't measured on a linear scale. Just because I get paid enough to eventually pay off my stupidly large loans doesn't mean billing 800 hrs in 10 weeks isn't absolutely fucking horrendous.

[rpupkin]

I would say I did one really dumb thing: never asking an associate at a large law firm what they actually did day-to-day in a typical month. Like what it actually meant to "file a motion" or "review documents." The only thing I really understood going in (frankly, even after my summer) was what it's like to do and report on legal research.

Credited.
I am lucky in that I got pulled into a practice group that threw me enough "real" work during my SA to give me an idea of what I am facing. (As in, some real drudge work, stay-late-on-Friday-work, the stuff I'll be doing as a 1st year work - not the fun, fluffy stuff you usually do as a SA.)

Sorry to single you out nygrrrl, but I find this kind of post the most annoying. There's something infuriating about analogizing the SA experience to the experience of an actual junior associate. The fact that you had to stay late on Fridays and had to perform drudge work just doesn't give you a sense for the mental grind month in and month out. Horrible hours and boring work are quite tolerable if you only have to endure them for 10 weeks of the year and then get to go on vacation for the other 42 weeks. (And, yes, law school is a vacation compared to big law--except for the two weeks a semester when you have to study for and take your finals.)

I just hate the summer associate anecdotes. I'd rather read a post by some 0L speculating about big law based on no information.

[09042014]

If you don't consider pay being a bus not is waaaaaaaay better.

[Danger Zone]

If you don't consider pay being a bus not is waaaaaaaay better.

If you don't consider pay, being unemployed is way better than any fucking job.

[Lincoln]

I would say I did one really dumb thing: never asking an associate at a large law firm what they actually did day-to-day in a typical month. Like what it actually meant to "file a motion" or "review documents." The only thing I really understood going in (frankly, even after my summer) was what it's like to do and report on legal research.

Credited.
I am lucky in that I got pulled into a practice group that threw me enough "real" work during my SA to give me an idea of what I am facing. (As in, some real drudge work, stay-late-on-Friday-work, the stuff I'll be doing as a 1st year work - not the fun, fluffy stuff you usually do as a SA.)

Sorry to single you out nygrrrl, but I find this kind of post the most annoying. There's something infuriating about analogizing the SA experience to the experience of an actual junior associate. The fact that you had to stay late on Fridays and had to perform drudge work just doesn't give you a sense for the mental grind month in and month out. Horrible hours and boring work are quite tolerable if you only have to endure them for 10 weeks of the year and then get to go on vacation for the other 42 weeks. (And, yes, law school is a vacation compared to big law--except for the two weeks a semester when you have to study for and take your finals.)

I just hate the summer associate anecdotes. I'd rather read a post by some 0L speculating about big law based on no information.

Agreed. Like I said. Did you bill 800 hrs during your 10-week summer? No? Then you have no idea what it's like.

[ph14]

This argument comes up over and over again on TLS. Someone in biglaw posts about all the things that suck in biglaw; people who are not yet working in biglaw point out how much better the job is than all the other crap jobs out there, you're paid so well, all jobs are shit, you have to put up with crappy bosses everywhere (subtext: suck it up, you special special snowflake). The biglaw people who hate it can never convince the not-yet-there people that yes, they too are entirely likely to hate it, regardless of their SA experience/pre-LS experience in consulting or banking or similarly tough professional job/pre-LS experience digging ditches or paving roads or mining coal or similarly tough non-professional job.

Personally, I find it amusing that it's always people who aren't yet in biglaw defending it (and accusing those who are in the job and hate it of special snowflakeness), but that's just me.

Credited. You said it perfect, A. Nony. Just need to remember to copy paste this next time one of these threads get posted.

[Dr. Mantis Toboggan]

Paging BigRob to tell DF, IAFG, et al. that they are a bunch of whiners.

[IAFG]

I would say I did one really dumb thing: never asking an associate at a large law firm what they actually did day-to-day in a typical month. Like what it actually meant to "file a motion" or "review documents." The only thing I really understood going in (frankly, even after my summer) was what it's like to do and report on legal research.

Credited.
I am lucky in that I got pulled into a practice group that threw me enough "real" work during my SA to give me an idea of what I am facing. (As in, some real drudge work, stay-late-on-Friday-work, the stuff I'll be doing as a 1st year work - not the fun, fluffy stuff you usually do as a SA.)

Sorry to single you out nygrrrl, but I find this kind of post the most annoying. There's something infuriating about analogizing the SA experience to the experience of an actual junior associate. The fact that you had to stay late on Fridays and had to perform drudge work just doesn't give you a sense for the mental grind month in and month out. Horrible hours and boring work are quite tolerable if you only have to endure them for 10 weeks of the year and then get to go on vacation for the other 42 weeks. (And, yes, law school is a vacation compared to big law--except for the two weeks a semester when you have to study for and take your finals.)

I just hate the summer associate anecdotes. I'd rather read a post by some 0L speculating about big law based on no information.

I started to type this out then gave up.

NYG, you've put in long hours for a long time and are better prepared than most to deal with this job, but the reasons cited in this post are just beyond bad.

[IAFG]

Paging BigRob to tell DF, IAFG, et al. that they are a bunch of whiners.

Being busy really isn't the problem, at least not for me. This misunderstands what is the problem.

[Lacepiece23]

Serious question. Is everyone in this thread referring to NYC big law or other big market big law? I picked a secondary market hoping to avoid some of the suck that will inevitably be my job. Did I make a wise decision or did I just blow my exit options becuase its going to suck anyway, and I'll have none of dat vault prestige.

[09042014]

Serious question. Is everyone in this thread referring to NYC big law or other big market big law? I picked a secondary market hoping to avoid some of the suck that will inevitably be my job. Did I make a wise decision or did I just blow my exit options becuase its going to suck anyway, and I'll have none of dat vault prestige.

I think nonNYC is significantly better on average, but still not tolerable.

[Anonymous User]

Serious question. Is everyone in this thread referring to NYC big law or other big market big law? I picked a secondary market hoping to avoid some of the suck that will inevitably be my job. Did I make a wise decision or did I just blow my exit options becuase its going to suck anyway, and I'll have none of dat vault prestige.

Tyrannical Midlevel knows no borders.

[Lincoln]

Serious question. Is everyone in this thread referring to NYC big law or other big market big law? I picked a secondary market hoping to avoid some of the suck that will inevitably be my job. Did I make a wise decision or did I just blow my exit options becuase its going to suck anyway, and I'll have none of dat vault prestige.

Tyrannical Midlevel knows no borders.

My roommate refers to the midlevel who owns my life as "the fascist".

[jbagelboy]

Real question: How many of the biglaw posters here worked in white collar service industries before coming to law school?

I can see the transition to large billing requirements, shitty midlevel bosses, no social life, ect. as a particularly raw deal from a k-jd (or "I spent my gap year teaching english 8 hours a week in Barcelona and studying for the LSAT" de facto k-jd's) who then spent 3L fucking off and had no idea what the real FT grind can be like. For those of us with prior professional experience, hard to believe it's the same degree of shock. (I know this doesn't mean anything since these events are mostly just trying to sell the firms to us, but when attorneys ask me what I did before law school at firm receptions and I tell them the consulting firm I worked at, they say, "oh so you know what it's like...*grimace*)". I'm sure life as a junior biglaw attorney is worse, but is it that much worse...

Maybe I'll have more reflections after working in a biglaw office this summer and speaking with the other associates, but at my old consulting firm I faced a lot of the same shit (60 hour billing weeks, red-eye travel to client offices over thanksgiving weekend, constant heckling from a shit mid-level project supervisor who was always bitter he couldn't be home with his newborn kid and felt like keeping me till 8:30PM would assuage his own bullshit guilt) and I'm wondering if someone who had experienced vault consulting or bulge bracket finance before law school could comment on the transition?