Stories of TTT people who made it Forum

[Aspiresquire]

The champion of TTTT overachievers:
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/09/lawyer-o ... sure-king/

Even after his firm folded in 2011, he's still one of the richest men in South Florida. He now owns all of the Five Guys franchises.

[paglababa]

I'm a 2008 TTTT grad. It was a long ugly road, but I really can't complain. I started at a sorta middling mid sized firm. Went to a small firm and developed myself in a niche practice area. A year ago some of us joined a legit mid sized firm (over 100 lawyers), great quality of life and very reasonable money. The problem is that most TTTT success stories you hear are filled with lots of exceptional occurrences that lead to the TTTT candidate's successful outcome.

Life is generally an exceptional story except if you're spoiled and get to go through the OCI spoon-feeding phase of life.

Can't wait to get spoon fed.

[MoonDreamer]

I'm a 2008 TTTT grad. It was a long ugly road, but I really can't complain. I started at a sorta middling mid sized firm. Went to a small firm and developed myself in a niche practice area. A year ago some of us joined a legit mid sized firm (over 100 lawyers), great quality of life and very reasonable money. The problem is that most TTTT success stories you hear are filled with lots of exceptional occurrences that lead to the TTTT candidate's successful outcome.

Life is generally an exceptional story except if you're spoiled and get to go through the OCI spoon-feeding phase of life.

Can't wait to get spoon fed.

Try not to whine about the minor set backs when you do like having to look at your blackberry once in a while or working a few hours on a weekend. Just remember you're overpaid and lucky. Don't let your mind justify otherwise.

[90convoy]

I can't believe no one mentioned Willie Gary!

http://www.garylawgroup.com/gary/

He makes multimillions and probably has one of the gaudiest websites ever.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Try not to whine about the minor set backs when you do like having to look at your blackberry once in a while or working a few hours on a weekend. Just remember you're overpaid and lucky. Don't let your mind justify otherwise.

Dude, your jealousy is showing. Just because people in biglaw are overpaid doesn't mean that there's nothing to complain about about the job. If it were all kittens and sunshine and rainbows why would they have to pay someone $160K to do it?

[MoonDreamer]

Try not to whine about the minor set backs when you do like having to look at your blackberry once in a while or working a few hours on a weekend. Just remember you're overpaid and lucky. Don't let your mind justify otherwise.

Dude, your jealousy is showing. Just because people in biglaw are overpaid doesn't mean that there's nothing to complain about about the job. If it were all kittens and sunshine and rainbows why would they have to pay someone $160K to do it?

oh god, don't even say its because T14 people have some sort of special qualifications for the job. LMAO

[A. Nony Mouse]

Try not to whine about the minor set backs when you do like having to look at your blackberry once in a while or working a few hours on a weekend. Just remember you're overpaid and lucky. Don't let your mind justify otherwise.

Dude, your jealousy is showing. Just because people in biglaw are overpaid doesn't mean that there's nothing to complain about about the job. If it were all kittens and sunshine and rainbows why would they have to pay someone $160K to do it?

oh god, don't even say its because T14 people have some sort of special qualifications for the job. LMAO

Where did I say that? I didn't say anything about people's qualifications - that's your personal obsession. All I said is that the job frequently sucks, hence people complain about it. Just because it's the job they wanted and it pays a lot doesn't mean that they enjoy every minute or aren't entitled to complain about the parts of it that suck. (Complaining about low pay is, yes, stupid. But the hours can genuinely suck and make your life miserable, so people complain.)

[MoonDreamer]

Try not to whine about the minor set backs when you do like having to look at your blackberry once in a while or working a few hours on a weekend. Just remember you're overpaid and lucky. Don't let your mind justify otherwise.

Dude, your jealousy is showing. Just because people in biglaw are overpaid doesn't mean that there's nothing to complain about about the job. If it were all kittens and sunshine and rainbows why would they have to pay someone $160K to do it?

oh god, don't even say its because T14 people have some sort of special qualifications for the job. LMAO

Where did I say that? I didn't say anything about people's qualifications - that's your personal obsession. All I said is that the job frequently sucks, hence people complain about it. Just because it's the job they wanted and it pays a lot doesn't mean that they enjoy every minute or aren't entitled to complain about the parts of it that suck. (Complaining about low pay is, yes, stupid. But the hours can genuinely suck and make your life miserable, so people complain.)

I find that most professional jobs are difficult and have long hours. But no group of professionals complain like lawyers. I have friends who are doing their residencies, work in marketing with brutal hours, investment banking, architects (Harvard Grad architects making 50k coming out), etc. AND none of them complain like these biglaw snobs. It's disgusting.

[mirage1287]

I find that most professional jobs are difficult and have long hours. But no group of professionals complain like lawyers. I have friends who are doing their residencies, work in marketing with brutal hours, investment banking, architects (Harvard Grad architects making 50k coming out), etc. AND none of them complain like these biglaw snobs. It's disgusting.

I'm generally not a fan of the type of personalities that seem to be pervasive among lawyers/law students, generally speaking - you have both the obnoxious/pretentious/condescending types and the humorless/completely asbergers/ungodly boring types...and both do love to complain/whine about everything under the sun. Depressing to think that the majority of
people I'll work with in the future will fit into one of those categories...

[Anonymous User]

The only people that I know from TTTs who can somewhat consistently find decent firm jobs (midsize/maybe big) are ones with IP backgrounds. They're getting jobs in spite of their TTT school, though, obviously. One of my friends was a mechanical engineer and got a job doing IP work, another doing stuff with complex products liabilities cases.

I have no idea what their grades were, though.

[MoonDreamer]

The only people that I know from TTTs who can somewhat consistently find decent firm jobs (midsize/maybe big) are ones with IP backgrounds. They're getting jobs in spite of their TTT school, though, obviously. One of my friends was a mechanical engineer and got a job doing IP work, another doing stuff with complex products liabilities cases.

I have no idea what their grades were, though.

Even Engineer TTT law grads struggle. I have a friend who is doing medmal now with his engineering degree.

[paglababa]

I find that most professional jobs are difficult and have long hours. But no group of professionals complain like lawyers. I have friends who are doing their residencies, work in marketing with brutal hours, investment banking, architects (Harvard Grad architects making 50k coming out), etc. AND none of them complain like these biglaw snobs. It's disgusting.

I'm generally not a fan of the type of personalities that seem to be pervasive among lawyers/law students, generally speaking - you have both the obnoxious/pretentious/condescending types and the humorless/completely asbergers/ungodly boring types...and both do love to complain/whine about everything under the sun. Depressing to think that the majority of
people I'll work with in the future will fit into one of those categories...

And, unsurprisingly, you're the exception who does not fit into one of these pervasive categories eh

[MoonDreamer]

I find that most professional jobs are difficult and have long hours. But no group of professionals complain like lawyers. I have friends who are doing their residencies, work in marketing with brutal hours, investment banking, architects (Harvard Grad architects making 50k coming out), etc. AND none of them complain like these biglaw snobs. It's disgusting.

I'm generally not a fan of the type of personalities that seem to be pervasive among lawyers/law students, generally speaking - you have both the obnoxious/pretentious/condescending types and the humorless/completely asbergers/ungodly boring types...and both do love to complain/whine about everything under the sun. Depressing to think that the majority of
people I'll work with in the future will fit into one of those categories...

And, unsurprisingly, you're the exception who does not fit into one of these pervasive categories eh

Stop with the personal attacks.

[romothesavior]

Stop with the personal attacks.

Really? In the past page you've called big firm folks "biglaw snobs" and entitled

[ScottRiqui]

Good grades. Good LSAT. Average law school grades at certain "top" schools. Based on that, these law grades deserve 160k? Not at all. First of all, none of those factors are very good indicators for quality lawyers. You could go to Harvard law and be a terrible communicator, terrible writer, have social anxiety, and terrible people skills. Second, most people who attend TTTs actually have decent college GPAs. Finally, I don't want to diminish the value of Hugh LSAT scores but that's not enough to account for the discrepancy between t14s and the rest. Oh and law school exam grades are a bullshittting issue spotting typing test so I have little regard for it.

T14 grades are incredibly fortunate that they are good at a 2 hour standardized logic and reading comprehension exam. The system in place is producing unfair results, placing certain individuals at top firms and top pay that they aren't necessarily entitled to. What a messed up system.

Is there *anything* you would consider an objective indicator of the potential for a school's graduates? Would bar passage rates be a fair metric?

While factors like undergrad grades, LSAT score, personal statement, recommendation letters, law school grades and even bar passage might not be good indicators of your future ability as a lawyer when taken individually, I suspect that they're useful in the aggregate. True, you could still be a Yale grad with an abrasive personality and no social skills, but that's why firms interview, take on students as summer associates, etc.

And even if you land a high-paying job with a good firm, it's not as if it's a tenured position. Put out crappy product or piss people off, and you'll still likely find yourself out on the street. Even under good circumstances, you probably only have 5-8 years ahead of you unless you can get on the partner track, and the "top of the pyramid" is getting very narrow at that point.

[Bildungsroman]

Joe Biden became Vice President. Is this the sort of success story that OP would find helpful?

[JusticeJackson]

.

[reasonable_man]

Success takes work. I didn't do well enough on the LSAT to Merritt a spot at a T14. I own that. It was a bad time in my life, but in my many posts on TLS you will not see me talk about that beyond saying that I did not score up to my potential. I entered LS in 2005 when far less was known about job prospects from TTTT LSs. But the information was out there, just not as obvious. So when I got to my TTTT I focused on being top third and on gaining a ton of experience. I lined up a summer job at a less than prestigious mid law sized firm and killed that for 2 summers and got an offer for post grad employment. I also worked for a solo during school. I never stopped. When I left school I was earning very little - about 50k (which was raised to 70k before year 2 - because I put in more work than the other associates). I left that firm and continued to kill it at my small firm and now am at a really solid and objectively prestigious mid law firm, with sophisticated work. I traveled through the world of shitlaw to get here. 5 years later and my salary has doubled. I have interesting work, my salary goes up every year and partnership is a real possibility. I am happy with where I am.


What I don't do is begrudge those that bested me on the LSAT. They killed a test that I should have killed. Good for them! They deserve it. We all know the way the game works. I didn't win that early round and so I've had to work harder to get to a good place. Now I work with other T14 grads and tier 1 grads. I don't hate on them. They got to take a shortcut that was available to me had I availed myself of it. They don't deserve disparagement for it.

[Stinson]

Joe Biden became Vice President. Is this the sort of success story that OP would find helpful?

I think you can focus on being vice president, in which case it looks like a success story, or you can focus on being Joe Biden, which is more of a cautionary tale.

As to the other comments, I think anyone should be able to complain about his or her job, biglaw or small law or whatever. Everything is relative, and everyone can have valid complaints. I think working for minimum wage at Subway is in many respects a shitty job, but it's awesome compared to being a demi-slave harvesting beans on a West African cocoa plantation. That doesn't mean people working in big law ought not to have some perspective - oh no, there are only eight kinds of k-cups available for the free keurig machine! - but I see no reason why wherever people get treated crappy in some way they can't complain.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure if relevant, but as a tutor how do you deal with people starting with a 135 or 140 who "have to take the test in 2 months", and will go with whatever they get, and transfer to a tier 1 or t-14. I have already said how law school grading works, etc. but at least 75% of my students have a plan like this. Some are also aggressive, like threatening if I try to explain to them why it isn't a great plan.

The major justification is that students are either in school/working 20-40 hours a week now so don't have time to study for the LSAT. So when they're in law school they'll have time to study, and then will be at the top of the class and transfer.

[JusticeJackson]

.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure if relevant, but as a tutor how do you deal with people starting with a 135 or 140 who "have to take the test in 2 months", and will go with whatever they get, and transfer to a tier 1 or t-14. I have already said how law school grading works, etc. but at least 75% of my students have a plan like this. Some are also aggressive, like threatening if I try to explain to them why it isn't a great plan.

The major justification is that students are either in school/working 20-40 hours a week now so don't have time to study for the LSAT. So when they're in law school they'll have time to study, and then will be at the top of the class and transfer.

What do you mean by threatening? They threaten you?

I've had 1 student threaten violence but I just stopped tutoring him (the 'ol you think you're better than me, I will bust your face etc.). It was when I first started, and more of a "machismo thing." I used to be successful at tutoring women but unsuccessful at tutoring men because they would not want to take directions from me - as though my saying "do this, then do that" was challenging their masculinity. I have since learned a way to be softer with men to make them feel like they're doing everything on their own.

But I have frequently gotten the used car salesman vibe, like a kid goes from a 135 to a 155 (my most common "success story", and then absolutely won't retake). The parents will say something like, "We are glad with XXXX's success, but it is truly horrible that you would try to manipulate them into continuing to have lessons to make more money. We spent XXXX, etc."

It's a tad offensive, because once somebody improves those 20 points to the 155 I don't really want to keep tutoring them, but just to keep practicing and improve the next 10-15 on their own. Explaining the legal economy does not work. Well under 50% of the law school pool is capable of understanding the data - it takes substantially above average logic and reading skills to be able to process law school transparency data. The only people who can use these resources to make decisions are those who are already going to top law schools. People on this website do not understand what the average American is capable of. I do not wish to come off as sarcastic, but to expect the average law school applicant to be able to read a basic chart and apply it is absurd.

[MoonDreamer]

Not sure if relevant, but as a tutor how do you deal with people starting with a 135 or 140 who "have to take the test in 2 months", and will go with whatever they get, and transfer to a tier 1 or t-14. I have already said how law school grading works, etc. but at least 75% of my students have a plan like this. Some are also aggressive, like threatening if I try to explain to them why it isn't a great plan.

The major justification is that students are either in school/working 20-40 hours a week now so don't have time to study for the LSAT. So when they're in law school they'll have time to study, and then will be at the top of the class and transfer.

What do you mean by threatening? They threaten you?

I've had 1 student threaten violence but I just stopped tutoring him (the 'ol you think you're better than me, I will bust your face etc.). It was when I first started, and more of a "machismo thing." I used to be successful at tutoring women but unsuccessful at tutoring men because they would not want to take directions from me - as though my saying "do this, then do that" was challenging their masculinity. I have since learned a way to be softer with men to make them feel like they're doing everything on their own.

But I have frequently gotten the used car salesman vibe, like a kid goes from a 135 to a 155 (my most common "success story", and then absolutely won't retake). The parents will say something like, "We are glad with XXXX's success, but it is truly horrible that you would try to manipulate them into continuing to have lessons to make more money. We spent XXXX, etc."

It's a tad offensive, because once somebody improves those 20 points to the 155 I don't really want to keep tutoring them, but just to keep practicing and improve the next 10-15 on their own. Explaining the legal economy does not work. Well under 50% of the law school pool is capable of understanding the data - it takes substantially above average logic and reading skills to be able to process law school transparency data. The only people who can use these resources to make decisions are those who are already going to top law schools. People on this website do not understand what the average American is capable of. I do not wish to come off as sarcastic, but to expect the average law school applicant to be able to read a basic chart and apply it is absurd.

This doesn't make any sense. I actually showed and explained LST to my 17 year old cousin who wants to eventually go to law school and she understood perfectly.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure if relevant, but as a tutor how do you deal with people starting with a 135 or 140 who "have to take the test in 2 months", and will go with whatever they get, and transfer to a tier 1 or t-14. I have already said how law school grading works, etc. but at least 75% of my students have a plan like this. Some are also aggressive, like threatening if I try to explain to them why it isn't a great plan.

The major justification is that students are either in school/working 20-40 hours a week now so don't have time to study for the LSAT. So when they're in law school they'll have time to study, and then will be at the top of the class and transfer.

What do you mean by threatening? They threaten you?

I've had 1 student threaten violence but I just stopped tutoring him (the 'ol you think you're better than me, I will bust your face etc.). It was when I first started, and more of a "machismo thing." I used to be successful at tutoring women but unsuccessful at tutoring men because they would not want to take directions from me - as though my saying "do this, then do that" was challenging their masculinity. I have since learned a way to be softer with men to make them feel like they're doing everything on their own.

But I have frequently gotten the used car salesman vibe, like a kid goes from a 135 to a 155 (my most common "success story", and then absolutely won't retake). The parents will say something like, "We are glad with XXXX's success, but it is truly horrible that you would try to manipulate them into continuing to have lessons to make more money. We spent XXXX, etc."

It's a tad offensive, because once somebody improves those 20 points to the 155 I don't really want to keep tutoring them, but just to keep practicing and improve the next 10-15 on their own. Explaining the legal economy does not work. Well under 50% of the law school pool is capable of understanding the data - it takes substantially above average logic and reading skills to be able to process law school transparency data. The only people who can use these resources to make decisions are those who are already going to top law schools. People on this website do not understand what the average American is capable of. I do not wish to come off as sarcastic, but to expect the average law school applicant to be able to read a basic chart and apply it is absurd.

This doesn't make any sense. I actually showed and explained LST to my 17 year old cousin who wants to eventually go to law school and she understood perfectly.

Is her IQ over 95?

IDK how relevant age is. I don't know if a 17 yr old would do any worse in law school than a 35 year old necessarily. Maturity helps build a strong work ethic, but can just as likely solidify laziness.

[romothesavior]

This doesn't make any sense. I actually showed and explained LST to my 17 year old cousin who wants to eventually go to law school and she understood perfectly.

How does this not make any sense? You do know there are thousands and thousands of students who go to law schools with terrible job statistics, right? This shouldn't surprise you.

It's why your pissing and moaning about the "system" is falling on my very deaf ears. Most people at TTTs simply didn't do their homework, or they did their homework and didn't like what they found, so they chose to be willfully ignorant about it. I think a lot of people at TTTs were capable of more and sold themselves short.

Meanwhile, many of the "silver spoon" T14 biglaw snobs that you keep bashing on are people who worked their asses off to improve their lot, often foregoing mediocre offers in order to retake and put themselves in a position for success, despite pressure from parents and friends to just go. Hearing you rip on those people as "entitled" for doing the smart thing, working hard, and playing the game right is just hilarious to me. Your jealousy is palpable.