S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer" Forum

[Peyton]

1L SA here. My firm expressly does not give offers to come back for 2L summer, i.e. we were told in our interviews and reminded upon offers that we should go somewhere else our 2L summer. Should this change anything about my SA and how I spend my summer?

I'm thinking the best way to use this SA to its best advantage (other than the experience) is to get connections/recommendations. Anything I'm missing?

That policy seems very odd. Pretty small firm I’d assume. When you say SA, you do mean paid, right? If no 1Ls can return, do they recruit 2Ls?

[Anonymous User]

1L SA here. My firm expressly does not give offers to come back for 2L summer, i.e. we were told in our interviews and reminded upon offers that we should go somewhere else our 2L summer. Should this change anything about my SA and how I spend my summer?

I'm thinking the best way to use this SA to its best advantage (other than the experience) is to get connections/recommendations. Anything I'm missing?

That policy seems very odd. Pretty small firm I’d assume. When you say SA, you do mean paid, right? If no 1Ls can return, do they recruit 2Ls?

Its not a small firm. NLJ250. They've just built up a reputation as sort of a "second-base" firm for attorneys and so they do 95% of their hiring laterally (which I would assume is working out pretty well for them right now). I agree its strange then to have an SA program but I think its more of just like a marketing tool. And yes, its paid.

But back to the original question: how should I maximize this opportunity given that an offer will not be on the table?

[Anonymous User]

Firm sounds like Nelson Mullins. They do give return offers but want you to split it with another firm since they don't give out many job offers.

[Anonymous User]

Firm sounds like Nelson Mullins. They do give return offers but want you to split it with another firm since they don't give out many job offers.

Its not that firm, but thanks. From what I have been told I in no way should plan on going back there 2L or straight after law school. I'm going to try and use the people I work for to refer me to other firms - anyone know if there is an etiquette to that?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't think there's any particular etiquette beyond asking politely by the end of the summer when you've done enough work that they know what they think of you - one of the only things you can expect out of the experience is connections and references, it seems to me.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think there's any particular etiquette beyond asking politely by the end of the summer when you've done enough work that they know what they think of you - one of the only things you can expect out of the experience is connections and references, it seems to me.

Yea, I guess that I'd prefer a referral (or "in") more than a recommendation (or both), and it seems as though the former might take a bit more proactivity on my part than the latter.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't think there's any particular etiquette beyond asking politely by the end of the summer when you've done enough work that they know what they think of you - one of the only things you can expect out of the experience is connections and references, it seems to me.

Yea, I guess that I'd prefer a referral (or "in") more than a recommendation (or both), and it seems as though the former might take a bit more proactivity on my part than the latter.

Yeah, I guess the possibility of a referral depends on who has connections where and what firms you're looking at for next summer. I don't think you can say, "Can you hook me up for next summer?" but you can ask for a reference and what firms they would recommend you look at/apply to. They'll know what you're asking for.

[drmguy]

Checkin in. Start on Monday.

[TTRansfer]

Monday for me, as well. What up gentlemen and gentlewomen?

[piccolittle]

Just finished first week of SA. How bad is it to screw up on an assignment for a practice area you definitely aren't going into and won't take any assignments for again? Working on a really interesting project but I'm finding it difficult.

[Myself]

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[bk1]

1L SA here. My firm expressly does not give offers to come back for 2L summer, i.e. we were told in our interviews and reminded upon offers that we should go somewhere else our 2L summer. Should this change anything about my SA and how I spend my summer?

I'm thinking the best way to use this SA to its best advantage (other than the experience) is to get connections/recommendations. Anything I'm missing?

That policy seems very odd. Pretty small firm I’d assume. When you say SA, you do mean paid, right? If no 1Ls can return, do they recruit 2Ls?

Its not a small firm. NLJ250. They've just built up a reputation as sort of a "second-base" firm for attorneys and so they do 95% of their hiring laterally (which I would assume is working out pretty well for them right now). I agree its strange then to have an SA program but I think its more of just like a marketing tool. And yes, its paid.

But back to the original question: how should I maximize this opportunity given that an offer will not be on the table?

Do they not even offer eventual full time offers? Some firms (e.g. Munger) expressly do not allow 1Ls to return as 2Ls but do, I think, give full time postgrad offers.

Just do good work. There's obviously a lot less riding on your summer so don't sweat it. There really isn't anything to maximize other than to make a good impression and even that won't be worth much unless you intend to try and network through these attorneys to other firms in the area.

[homestyle28]

Going to read Curmudgeon's for a third time. Read it pre-law school, pre-1L SA. May as well read it now.

I am about to read it. I read a few excerpts and I liked it.

Just started this the other day. My first thought after reading the first chapter on writing was "why in the blue fuck was this not the first thing I was required to read in legal writing?"

[piccolittle]

Going to read Curmudgeon's for a third time. Read it pre-law school, pre-1L SA. May as well read it now.

I am about to read it. I read a few excerpts and I liked it.

Just started this the other day. My first thought after reading the first chapter on writing was "why in the blue fuck was this not the first thing I was required to read in legal writing?"

Yeah, I'm definitely having my moot court kiddies read it at the beginning of the semester.

[RELIC]

Just finished first week of SA. How bad is it to screw up on an assignment for a practice area you definitely aren't going into and won't take any assignments for again? Working on a really interesting project but I'm finding it difficult.

I don't think it matters where the assignment is from. The hiring committee usually asks for input from everyone you did work for. One bad review may not ruin your offer but it could (if it is bad enough).

[rad lulz]

Just finished first week of SA. How bad is it to screw up on an assignment for a practice area you definitely aren't going into and won't take any assignments for again? Working on a really interesting project but I'm finding it difficult.

I don't think it matters where the assignment is from. The hiring committee usually asks for input from everyone you did work for. One bad review may not ruin your offer but it could (if it is bad enough).

Or it could if they need to cut someone

Or it could if they need an excuse to cut someone

Or it could if the assigning attorney has a lot of pull and dislikes you personally

etc.

[thesealocust]

Just finished first week of SA. How bad is it to screw up on an assignment for a practice area you definitely aren't going into and won't take any assignments for again? Working on a really interesting project but I'm finding it difficult.

It's important to realize what you will be judged on and what you want. A lot of training at a firm can come by giving you an impossible task, then giving you comments/direction to correct it.

It's painful, but it's clearly sometimes the nature of the beast.

Screwing up an assignment tends to mean inexcusable neglect: rushing something that shouldn't have been rushed (sometimes, at least as an associate, you do have to shoot from the hip though), blowing a deadline without communicating in advance, ignoring instructions, failing to ask important and obviously important questions, taking the wrong attitude (lazy, bored, frustrated, too good for the work, etc.).

But just doing something wrong despite putting in a good faith effort on a good faith time table? Welcome to the rest of your life. This stuff is hard, and law school generally doesn't prepare you at all for the challenge at hand.

[Anonymous User]

1L SA here. My firm expressly does not give offers to come back for 2L summer, i.e. we were told in our interviews and reminded upon offers that we should go somewhere else our 2L summer. Should this change anything about my SA and how I spend my summer?

I'm thinking the best way to use this SA to its best advantage (other than the experience) is to get connections/recommendations. Anything I'm missing?

That policy seems very odd. Pretty small firm I’d assume. When you say SA, you do mean paid, right? If no 1Ls can return, do they recruit 2Ls?

Its not a small firm. NLJ250. They've just built up a reputation as sort of a "second-base" firm for attorneys and so they do 95% of their hiring laterally (which I would assume is working out pretty well for them right now). I agree its strange then to have an SA program but I think its more of just like a marketing tool. And yes, its paid.

But back to the original question: how should I maximize this opportunity given that an offer will not be on the table?

Do they not even offer eventual full time offers? Some firms (e.g. Munger) expressly do not allow 1Ls to return as 2Ls but do, I think, give full time postgrad offers.

Just do good work. There's obviously a lot less riding on your summer so don't sweat it. There really isn't anything to maximize other than to make a good impression and even that won't be worth much unless you intend to try and network through these attorneys to other firms in the area.

No they don't give full time offers since they do all of their hiring laterally. I know its strange, but i'm not going to turn down a paid SA.

I definitely am trying to network through these attorneys to where they lateralled from though, maybe get some "ins" to interviews w/o OCI. So i'll just act like I was working for an offer and see where it takes me.

[TTRansfer]

Just finished first week of SA. How bad is it to screw up on an assignment for a practice area you definitely aren't going into and won't take any assignments for again? Working on a really interesting project but I'm finding it difficult.

First off, I highly doubt your assignment was that bad.

Second off, if it really was THAT BAD, then it can be something that sinks you. But I highly doubt it was bad enough to truly kill you.

[Peyton]

(I posted this question elsewhere, but this seems to be a more appropriate place).

When do firms usually divulge their intentions? I assume it is at the end of the SA term, but before then what are the usual subtle (or obvious) signs on how their decision is likely to go? Or is it a white-knuckle experience until the very last minute?

I’ll assume they bring in people individually to break the news (if it is not good) and throw party for everyone else. Offered or not offered, what is the next step in the process?

[Anonymous User]

(I posted this question elsewhere, but this seems to be a more appropriate place).

When do firms usually divulge their intentions? I assume it is at the end of the SA term, but before then what are the usual subtle (or obvious) signs on how their decision is likely to go? Or is it a white-knuckle experience until the very last minute?

I’ll assume they bring in people individually to break the news (if it is not good) and throw party for everyone else. Offered or not offered, what is the next step in the process?

If you're screwing up, you'll probably hear about it; I don't think it's common for firms to be silent about a summer's mistakes until the end. Some firms do official offers at the end of the summer, others give informal "you're being recommended for an offer" meetings (that's what mine does) and then the official offer comes two weeks later, and a few firms won't even go that far.

[shock259]

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[Peyton]

When do firms usually divulge their intentions?

If you're screwing up, you'll probably hear about it; I don't think it's common for firms to be silent about a summer's mistakes until the end. Some firms do official offers at the end of the summer, others give informal "you're being recommended for an offer" meetings (that's what mine does) and then the official offer comes two weeks later, and a few firms won't even go that far.

Thanks for the heads-up. If you are “no offered” do you head over to OCI and hope for the best? Is there a way to maneuver around a “no offer” when talking to OCI recruiters?

If you are “offered” what exactly happens during 3L? Do you go to the firm as a SA or do you wind up studying for the bar… or?

[chrisbru]

1 day down. Just a lot of administrative stuff. Met a few associates/partners but not many. Like the people so far. At a V50 with ~100% offer rate. Firm told us that they have space to give us all offers (so we aren't competing against each other), but we still have to earn the offer by doing good work. I'm guessing they are just trying to motivate/scare us a bit.

Sounds like you don't belong here lol.

[09042014]

1 day down. Just a lot of administrative stuff. Met a few associates/partners but not many. Like the people so far. At a V50 with ~100% offer rate. Firm told us that they have space to give us all offers (so we aren't competing against each other), but we still have to earn the offer by doing good work. I'm guessing they are just trying to motivate/scare us a bit.

My firm said the same and dinged someone for being weird. So don't get too cocky.