What Firms Pay Above Market? Forum

[fish52]

Your right that I am law student but I'm a rising 3L with a CoA clerkship already in hand PLUS I've worked as a summer at the most prestigious firms. And your lying through your teeth talking about prestige not mattering when you actually start working.

I summered at a firm where they literally told us that they had so much work that they needed laterals to come over but because they only hired from certain "peer" firms that they were having a hard time filling their ranks even though there were alot of qualified applicants.

And no Kirkland was not considered a "peer" firm.

Jesus Christ. If you're (see how easy that was?!) telling the truth, our elite firms are in a lot (again, not hard!!) more trouble than I thought they were.

[Magnificent]

I'm not gonna say where I've worked because they don't hire many summers and it would definitely out me. But its one of the top/most desirable firms in the country and only hires CoA/SCOTUS clerks.

Chasing prestige your whole life will make you miserable. You should do things because they make you happy, not because they make people on law-websites think you're impressive.

Nobody thinks he's impressive.

Is that jealously I sense?

[Magnificent]

Your right that I am law student but I'm a rising 3L with a CoA clerkship already in hand PLUS I've worked as a summer at the most prestigious firms. And your lying through your teeth talking about prestige not mattering when you actually start working.

I summered at a firm where they literally told us that they had so much work that they needed laterals to come over but because they only hired from certain "peer" firms that they were having a hard time filling their ranks even though there were alot of qualified applicants.

And no Kirkland was not considered a "peer" firm.

Jesus Christ. If you're (see how easy that was?!) telling the truth, our elite firms are in a lot (again, not hard!!) more trouble than I thought they were.

well I'm glad law profs don't care about spelling/grammar when grading exams because if they did I wouldn't be top 5%

AND

good thing microsoft word has spell check or I wouldn't have got such great reviews from the attorneys I've worked with

[fatduck]

wait, you're only top 5%? lol

[rayiner]

Chasing prestige your whole life will make you miserable. You should do things because they make you happy, not because they make people on law-websites think you're impressive.

Nobody thinks he's impressive.

Is that jealously I sense?

Totally jealous of your non-feeder COA.

[darkarmour]

CALM DOWN LITTLE BREHS

CALM DOWN

lol... oh TLS.

[20121109]

This should be a thread about firms that pay above market; asserting how awesome your COA clerkship is, or how prestigious your firm is, or retaliating at said assertions with condescendingly salacious comments somehow fails to fall into such a category.

Please get back on-topic.

[Borg]

Duval & Stachenfeld pays above market if you're at a really good law school, but you also have to be in the top of your class at that really good school to get the job. They have a second track for people from Hofstra, NYLS etc. where they get paid like $75k. From the looks of their website, it doesn't look like it is going particularly well when it comes to recruiting the former. I guess it isn't surprising, as the pay difference is somewhat negligible when you take into account the fact that you have to commit to doing real estate work, few people have heard of your firm, and you'll be resented by associates from lower ranked schools who are making less than half of what you're making for no real reason. I can't imagine wasting the recruiting power you hold as a top grad from HYSCCN on a firm like that.

Well, if you want to do real estate and have that sort of background I could see it.

I guess, but I'd rather go with a real estate group at a more well known firm without the odd compensation system and heavy recruiting from bad law schools. An extra $20k now isn't worth the loss of exit options and probably not great work environment.

? Lots of highly ranked firms have talent from low ranked schools. And I wouldn't turn down an extra 15k just because some other attorneys at my firm aren't making as much as I am. Also, their real estate practice is well respected if you are going to lateral but stay within that practice area. Somehow I get the feeling that smoke is being blown up my ass.

You are right that a lot of top firms have talent from everywhere, and I do believe that good lawyers come from all over. I just think it's very likely that the fact that people are doing the same work but making dramatically different levels of pay has an effect on the atmosphere of the place, and when you're working biglaw hours that matters. Also, very few people know that they want to do real estate law, so the ability to work in real estate + a few other practice groups at a more well known firm and decide after having some experience is probably a powerful reason for a lot of people to go elsewhere. These guys have a hard grade cutoff at top schools (think it's top 10%?), so to go there over a V10 with a good real estate practice could actually be a gamble in some ways.

Even if you don't buy any of this, I don't see many associates on their website from top schools, so it's not clear that whatever recruiting they are doing is actually paying any dividends. Res ipsa.

[dixiecupdrinking]

You are right that a lot of top firms have talent from everywhere, and I do believe that good lawyers come from all over. I just think it's very likely that the fact that people are doing the same work but making dramatically different levels of pay has an effect on the atmosphere of the place, and when you're working biglaw hours that matters. Also, very few people know that they want to do real estate law, so the ability to work in real estate + a few other practice groups at a more well known firm and decide after having some experience is probably a powerful reason for a lot of people to go elsewhere. These guys have a hard grade cutoff at top schools (think it's top 10%?), so to go there over a V10 with a good real estate practice could actually be a gamble in some ways.

Even if you don't buy any of this, I don't see many associates on their website from top schools, so it's not clear that whatever recruiting they are doing is actually paying any dividends. Res ipsa.

Actually when I looked at their website I was surprised to see how many T14 graduates they had... looked like a good number of NYU, Penn, Harvard. Even the Seton Hall, Hofstra types looked to be magna + law review. I agree it sounds like a toxic set up but maybe it's been more successful for them than I thought.

[Magnificent]

Nobody thinks he's impressive.

Is that jealously I sense?

Totally jealous of your non-feeder COA.

how do you know its "non-feeder"?

I'm not going to expose myself cause most of the top feeders that are hiring 3Ls are either on-plan or haven't hired yet (particularly those on the 2nd and DC circuits). Only a couple of major feeders on the 9th and 7th circuit are done hiring 3Ls.

Spoken like someone who doesn't anything about the clerkship market because you lack the credentials to be a competitive applicant.

[20121109]

Totally jealous of your non-feeder COA.

how do you know its "non-feeder"?

I'm not going to expose myself cause most of the top feeders that are hiring 3Ls are either on-plan or haven't hired yet (particularly those on the 2nd and DC circuits). Only a couple of major feeders on the 9th and 7th circuit are done hiring 3Ls.

Spoken like someone who doesn't anything about the climate in clerkships right now because you don't have the credentials to be a competitive applicant.

This should be a thread about firms that pay above market; asserting how awesome your COA clerkship is... somehow fails to fall into such a category.

Please get back on-topic.

[Veyron]

You are right that a lot of top firms have talent from everywhere, and I do believe that good lawyers come from all over. I just think it's very likely that the fact that people are doing the same work but making dramatically different levels of pay has an effect on the atmosphere of the place, and when you're working biglaw hours that matters. Also, very few people know that they want to do real estate law, so the ability to work in real estate + a few other practice groups at a more well known firm and decide after having some experience is probably a powerful reason for a lot of people to go elsewhere. These guys have a hard grade cutoff at top schools (think it's top 10%?), so to go there over a V10 with a good real estate practice could actually be a gamble in some ways.

Even if you don't buy any of this, I don't see many associates on their website from top schools, so it's not clear that whatever recruiting they are doing is actually paying any dividends. Res ipsa.

I would say that the people with a shot of summering for them (or working on the 175k track) would have to have enough of a real estate background to be well versed in the field and make an intelligent decision about pursuing it. In any case, I don't have a dog in this fight, I work for a firm that is pretty far removed from that sort of work. Just presenting what I hope is useful info.

[Borg]

You are right that a lot of top firms have talent from everywhere, and I do believe that good lawyers come from all over. I just think it's very likely that the fact that people are doing the same work but making dramatically different levels of pay has an effect on the atmosphere of the place, and when you're working biglaw hours that matters. Also, very few people know that they want to do real estate law, so the ability to work in real estate + a few other practice groups at a more well known firm and decide after having some experience is probably a powerful reason for a lot of people to go elsewhere. These guys have a hard grade cutoff at top schools (think it's top 10%?), so to go there over a V10 with a good real estate practice could actually be a gamble in some ways.

Even if you don't buy any of this, I don't see many associates on their website from top schools, so it's not clear that whatever recruiting they are doing is actually paying any dividends. Res ipsa.

I would say that the people with a shot of summering for them (or working on the 175k track) would have to have enough of a real estate background to be well versed in the field and make an intelligent decision about pursuing it. In any case, I don't have a dog in this fight, I work for a firm that is pretty far removed from that sort of work. Just presenting what I hope is useful info.

I doubt it, I know a guy who got an offer who was straight from undergrad and just has good grades. My only point is that they pay above market but it is probably not the right place for everyone. I work in banking and don't care about this either, so I hope someone who does care learned something.

[rayiner]

how do you know its "non-feeder"?

I can't picture a universe in which you have a feeder but neglect to mention it in your original post. It wouldn't have been relevant, of course, but your preening never is.

[Detrox]

how do you know its "non-feeder"?

I can't picture a universe in which you have a feeder but neglect to mention it in your original post. It wouldn't have been relevant, of course, but your preening never is.

Prepare for a CoA vacancy after whatever judge took this idiot dies from a year of smug pollution.

[Magnificent]

how do you know its "non-feeder"?

I can't picture a universe in which you have a feeder but neglect to mention it in your original post. It wouldn't have been relevant, of course, but your preening never is.

Well if you knew anything about clerkship hiring right now you would know that if I mentioned it was a feeder clerkship I would essentially have exposed myself since there are only about 4-5 feeders that are done hiring.

[20121109]

how do you know its "non-feeder"?

I can't picture a universe in which you have a feeder but neglect to mention it in your original post. It wouldn't have been relevant, of course, but your preening never is.

Well if you knew anything about clerkship hiring right now you would know that if I mentioned it was a feeder clerkship I would essentially have exposed myself since there are only about 4-5 feeders that are done hiring.

Seriously?

Does no one pay attention to mod directives? I'm even being nice and shit. I won't say it again; I'll just ban.

[Magnificent]

how do you know its "non-feeder"?

I can't picture a universe in which you have a feeder but neglect to mention it in your original post. It wouldn't have been relevant, of course, but your preening never is.

Well if you knew anything about clerkship hiring right now you would know that if I mentioned it was a feeder clerkship I would essentially have exposed myself since there are only about 4-5 feeders that are done hiring.

Seriously?

Does no one pay attention to mod directives? I'm even being nice and shit. I won't say it again; I'll just ban.

Hey I didn't start it. Plus they also continued it. Why just single me out?

[20121109]

Hey I didn't start it. Plus they also continued it. Why just single me out?

I didn't mean to single anyone out. I honestly don't care who started or continued it. I just want us to get back on-topic, please.

[Anonymous User]

So now that it's settled that Kirkland pays above market...

[Anonymous User]

how do you know its "non-feeder"?

I can't picture a universe in which you have a feeder but neglect to mention it in your original post. It wouldn't have been relevant, of course, but your preening never is.

Well if you knew anything about clerkship hiring right now you would know that if I mentioned it was a feeder clerkship I would essentially have exposed myself since there are only about 4-5 feeders that are done hiring.

Actually, I know a lot about clerkship hiring right now. I know that you are absolutely incorrect about the number of feeders who have already hired. Rather than it being '4-5' as you suggest, virtually every feeder on the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, and 10th have finished hiring. Some of those have even hired for 2014 as well. Virtually the only feeders who have not hired yet are DC and 2d (and to be fair, most of the 2d Cir feeders will be hiring for 2014 at this point, as will some of the DC feeders). Now, I have no desire to get into an argument over who knows more, etc. But, there is no need to spread misinformation.

But, back on topic. Let's be honest though, this is all a little bit silly. For people who are at the top of their class (and especially those coming off COA clerkships), there will be a variety of options available. Yes, some of the litigation and appellate boutiques pay more. They also tend to work much harder. It's also not very helpful to compare apples and oranges. Yes, Susman Godfrey pays more (starting at least) to associates than other firms. But, they are also doing plaintiff's work that many people don't have a strong desire to do. And, they have a personality that is not a good fit for everyone. Likewise, a handful of big law firms pay more as well.

That said, there are good reasons for picking firms that don't necessarily pay more. For example, if you want to do regulatory work, you'd be far better off going to Covington or A&P over a litigation boutique. Same if you are interested in academia - it seems like 1/4 of all the profs out there spent time at Covington. Similarly, Gibson Dunn DC attracts lots of smart conservatives who want to do a mix of appellate work. Kirkland DC attracts a lot of really smart, aggressive litigators. etc.

[Magnificent]

how do you know its "non-feeder"?

I can't picture a universe in which you have a feeder but neglect to mention it in your original post. It wouldn't have been relevant, of course, but your preening never is.

Well if you knew anything about clerkship hiring right now you would know that if I mentioned it was a feeder clerkship I would essentially have exposed myself since there are only about 4-5 feeders that are done hiring.

Actually, I know a lot about clerkship hiring right now. I know that you are absolutely incorrect about the number of feeders who have already hired. Rather than it being '4-5' as you suggest, virtually every feeder on the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, and 10th have finished hiring. Some of those have even hired for 2014 as well. Virtually the only feeders who have not hired yet are DC and 2d (and to be fair, most of the 2d Cir feeders will be hiring for 2014 at this point, as will some of the DC feeders). Now, I have no desire to get into an argument over who knows more, etc. But, there is no need to spread misinformation.

What I meant was with regard to feeders who hired rising 3Ls. Most of the feeders you cited were done hiring last year or hired alums. Very few actually filled their ranks with folks who were rising 3Ls. Hence the reason I would be exposing myself.

And yes I know that the only feeders outside the 2nd and DC that are still hiring 3Ls are Boudin and Willy Fletcher.

[Icculus]

Hence the reason I would be exposing myself.

And we don't want him, exposing himself!

Gaia I understand if you ban me, but I couldn't resist.

[$$$$$$]

Hence the reason I would be exposing myself.

And we don't want him, exposing himself!

Gaia I understand if you ban me, but I couldn't resist.

I heard anyone who quotes Peter Venkman in an interview gets an offer on the spot from any firm that pays above market. Great job // end thread

[IAFG]

LOL @ how predictable Magnficent is.