V10 First Year Associate Taking Questions Forum

[bdubs]

Since there appear to be a few litigators at high ranking Vault firms here, I've got a question for you. To what extent do you feel like your litigation department is just a support department for the corporate folks?

wut

just lol'd.

?? Not sure what's funny about this. I've heard from several folks that the majority of partners in litigation departments at several of the V20 are "service" partners that do not own their own relationships and largely handle business derived from corporate partners' contacts. I wanted to get a sense of whether associates at these firms felt like they were playing second fiddle to the corporate lawyers.

[Guchster]

Since there appear to be a few litigators at high ranking Vault firms here, I've got a question for you. To what extent do you feel like your litigation department is just a support department for the corporate folks?

wut

just lol'd.

?? Not sure what's funny about this. I've heard from several folks that the majority of partners in litigation departments at several of the V20 are "service" partners that do not own their own relationships and largely handle business derived from corporate partners' contacts. I wanted to get a sense of whether associates at these firms felt like they were playing second fiddle to the corporate lawyers.

I see your point now, and I guess most V10 firms are corporate-centered firms so maybe they run into this more than a litigation-focused one would.

But V20 firms like GDC/PW have to at least be lolzing at your comment (give me that at least).

[bdubs]

But V20 firms like GDC/PW have to at least be lolzing at your comment (give me that at least).

Assumed that OP was not at GDC or PW since they are not V10. The only firm in the V10 that I can see claiming some equality between corporate and litigation is Cravath, and even then it might be too strong to say they are equal in prestige/position.

ETA: Covington is V10, and if OP is there then my question wouldn't be applicable.

[Guchster]

But V20 firms like GDC/PW have to at least be lolzing at your comment (give me that at least).

Assumed that OP was not at GDC or PW since they are not V10. The only firm in the V10 that I can see claiming some equality between corporate and litigation is Cravath, and even then it might be too strong to say they are equal in prestige/position.

Agree, and that's why I modified the first part of what I wrote and said that because V10s litigation-weak compared to its corporate side, I understood your point in the question

[Detrox]

But V20 firms like GDC/PW have to at least be lolzing at your comment (give me that at least).

Assumed that OP was not at GDC or PW since they are not V10. The only firm in the V10 that I can see claiming some equality between corporate and litigation is Cravath, and even then it might be too strong to say they are equal in prestige/position.

ETA: Covington is V10, and if OP is there then my question wouldn't be applicable.

Disagree with this. I'd say the top firms may have extremely strong corporate departments but I believe that their litigation departments are not relatively weak or "dependent" on their Corporate departments. I'd put DPW up there for strong V10 litigation. S&C as well. WLRK is its own beast but I'd put them up there as well. Going deeper in to the V20+ is more difficult. Going to have splits like PW and GDC which are litigation dominant (not to mention W&C, Quinn, and Boies which are all V20!).

As to a top firm that fits bdubs stereotype about litigation departments being "service partners" to corp, I'd have to say Shearman jumps to my mind. Although the more I look at the V25 list, I find it to be the exception rather than the rule.

[Anonymous User]

Someone mentioned this earlier that I think many of us are wondering: what does the hours worked to hours billed ratio look like for a 1st year?

Not OP, but I'm a 1st year litigator. At work for ~12 hours/day. Bill anywhere from 10-12 of that. Efficiency depends on meetings, lunch (in/out/CLE/etc), and other random events. My monthly average is ~220 billed. No weekends in the office, but occasional work from home if something comes up (usually I'm told to wait until Monday, though).

Wow, no weekends? That goes against everything I've heard. Vault range/location?

How do you like your co-workers/bosses so far?

Somehow I just doubt this.

There are 52 weeks in a year, about 10 holidays, and 2 weeks vacation. That leaves 48 weeks. or 240 days. Even if you billed 10 hours every day (hard to do EVERY DAY)- that's only 2400 billiable hours. Either you are padding your billing, lying about working weekends, or lying about time at the gym or eating out. And- unless your significant other also is a young lawyer at a big law firm or a resident fresh out of law school- no SO would put up with your hours and think they were in a relationship. I'm not saying you can't do all those things- just saying you can't do them and bill a legitimate 2400-2600 hours.

Thats interesting I dont remember him saying that he takes 2 weeks off a year? I am assuming you mean 10 DAYS off for holidays? The firm I am at got the Friday/Monday off for xmas thats it. So he is likely looking at working closer to 50 weeks out of the year. He is in litigation so while he NORMALLY works 10/12 hours a day there will be times when shit actually gets to the in trial stage and his hours will double. Please correct me if its not like that for you (op). Also, I work 8am-7pm 5 days a week and hit the gym before work every day(get there at 6am). I have a gf that I live with and we do great, why is that not possible? So dont come in here and give this guy a hard time, or call him out, when he is just here to give useful info as a favor.

[005618502]

Just tagging. Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

[quote="Anonymous UserNot OP, but I'm a 1st year litigator. At work for ~12 hours/day. Bill anywhere from 10-12 of that. Efficiency depends on meetings, lunch (in/out/CLE/etc), and other random events. My monthly average is ~220 billed. No weekends in the office, but occasional work from home if something comes up (usually I'm told to wait until Monday, though).

Wow, no weekends? That goes against everything I've heard. Vault range/location?

How do you like your co-workers/bosses so far?

Somehow I just doubt this.

There are 52 weeks in a year, about 10 holidays, and 2 weeks vacation. That leaves 48 weeks. or 240 days. Even if you billed 10 hours every day (hard to do EVERY DAY)- that's only 2400 billiable hours. Either you are padding your billing, lying about working weekends, or lying about time at the gym or eating out. And- unless your significant other also is a young lawyer at a big law firm or a resident fresh out of law school- no SO would put up with your hours and think they were in a relationship. I'm not saying you can't do all those things- just saying you can't do them and bill a legitimate 2400-2600 hours.[/quote]

[/quote]=Thats interesting I dont remember him saying that he takes 2 weeks off a year? I am assuming you mean 10 DAYS off for holidays? The firm I am at got the Friday/Monday off for xmas thats it. So he is likely looking at working closer to 50 weeks out of the year. He is in litigation so while he NORMALLY works 10/12 hours a day there will be times when shit actually gets to the in trial stage and his hours will double. Please correct me if its not like that for you (op). Also, I work 8am-7pm 5 days a week and hit the gym before work every day(get there at 6am). I have a gf that I live with and we do great, why is that not possible? So dont come in here and give this guy a hard time, or call him out, when he is just here to give useful info as a favor.[/quote]


Actually he said to wait until after reviews to take your vacation? And are you suggesting billing 2600 hours a year without taking any time off? Do you bill 2600 hours a year and take no vacation (10 days)- Do you bill 10 out of your 11 hour day every day for 50 weeks a year? Look I'm not syasing it can;t be done, but to tell a newbie 0L or even a 1L or 2L that life will be really manageable in a 5 day week without pain is just misleading- and I HAVE been there. (Besides your 6 am trip to the gym and leqaving for home at 7 really means you are putting in a 13 hour day, and have maybe 3 hours of down time when you get home each night)

[Anonymous User]

Actually he said to wait until after reviews to take your vacation? And are you suggesting billing 2600 hours a year without taking any time off? Do you bill 2600 hours a year and take no vacation (10 days)- Do you bill 10 out of your 11 hour day every day for 50 weeks a year? Look I'm not syasing it can;t be done, but to tell a newbie 0L or even a 1L or 2L that life will be really manageable in a 5 day week without pain is just misleading- and I HAVE been there. (Besides your 6 am trip to the gym and leqaving for home at 7 really means you are putting in a 13 hour day, and have maybe 3 hours of down time when you get home each night)

My third year of biglaw, I was swamped. I had three trials -- actual go-to-a-jury trials -- with extensive discovery in two of them (I was second chair on one of the trials and a peon on the other two), a high stakes federal appeal, and a big discovery round on another case that would go to trial the next year (I was third chair on this one). God I was working so much. Out of town probably every third week, often for the whole week. I'd probably work 75% of the weekend days. The late nights weren't too bad -- I'd usually only be there until 8:30 or 9:00 unless there was a brief due that week. But I was there until at least 7:00 PM every single night. My wife threatened to divorce me if I didn't take a substantial down period(I conveyed this on, and to my firm's credit, they basically let me slack off for several months).

I billed 2575 hours that year. I am dubious that OP can be on pace for 2600 hours working virtually no weekends and putting in 12 hour days.

[Anonymous User]

But V20 firms like GDC/PW have to at least be lolzing at your comment (give me that at least).

Assumed that OP was not at GDC or PW since they are not V10. The only firm in the V10 that I can see claiming some equality between corporate and litigation is Cravath, and even then it might be too strong to say they are equal in prestige/position.

ETA: Covington is V10, and if OP is there then my question wouldn't be applicable.

Kirkland???

Not saying that OP is there. But litigation and corporate are pretty equal at that firm...

[traehekat]

Well, this has become a pretty pointless discussion. Hopefully OP comes back as I'm sure plenty of people have some good questions.

[Anonymous User]

So without weekends that's about 10 billable hrs/day, and you said you're in the office 10-12 hrs/day. Do you bill almost all of your time in the office (and is this common?) or do you end up billing some time at home?

OP here. I'm pretty efficient in the office, so almost all of my time in the office goes toward billable work. I don't know how common this is. I bill some time from home, of course.

And I didn't say that I don't work weekends. Almost every weekend I invariably do a few hours. But it's rare when I lose a whole weekend (even though it has happened).

[Anonymous User]

Someone mentioned this earlier that I think many of us are wondering: what does the hours worked to hours billed ratio look like for a 1st year?

As efficient as you want it to be? To some extent it's out of your hands. Your firm might not have billable work for you to do, and you will have training to attend to, it whether that counts toward your billables varies from firm to firm.

[Anonymous User]

Since there appear to be a few litigators at high ranking Vault firms here, I've got a question for you. To what extent do you feel like your litigation department is just a support department for the corporate folks?

Of course our litigation group does work for the corporate department, but it sources a significant amount of its own work. Most of the work I do was sourced in the litigation department.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this!

You mentioned that you looked into exit opportunities as a midlevel v. senior associate. Could you talk a bit about which particular practice groups have an easier time going in-house than others? I guess I'm more interested in corporate work so maybe exit opportunities in M&A v. Capital Markets v. Tax. Also, if you feel comfortable, could you tell us which market you are in? I'm interested in NYC in particular but not sure if this really affects the answer to my questions above.

I don't really know thee answer to this, since I don't have a specific sense of which sub-groups in corporate have better "exit options."

[Anonymous User]

Anything I should do as a summer associate to ensure I get an offer? Besides not fucking up royally, getting too drunk at social events, etc.

You pretty much hit everything. Do good work?

[Anonymous User]

were your 2L grades taken into account when offers were being made? did you know anyone who get dinged b/c of 2L grades?

I don't know whether they were "taken into account." My firm had my 2L grades for sure, but I don't know what factor they played, if any. The answer is "no" to your second question.

[Anonymous User]

There are 52 weeks in a year, about 10 holidays, and 2 weeks vacation. That leaves 48 weeks. or 240 days. Even if you billed 10 hours every day (hard to do EVERY DAY)- that's only 2400 billiable hours. Either you are padding your billing, lying about working weekends, or lying about time at the gym or eating out. And- unless your significant other also is a young lawyer at a big law firm or a resident fresh out of law school- no SO would put up with your hours and think they were in a relationship. I'm not saying you can't do all those things- just saying you can't do them and bill a legitimate 2400-2600 hours.

I don't know if you're talking to me or TXPlitigator, but I don't go to the gym or eat out. Yes, I don't make my own meals, but that's only because I'm usually at the office long enough to have it ordered in...

[Anonymous User]

I billed 2575 hours that year. I am dubious that OP can be on pace for 2600 hours working virtually no weekends and putting in 12 hour days.

I think you're confusing me and TXPlitigator. Just because rarely devote my entire weekends, that doesn't mean I work "virtually no weekends." At the end of the day, my weekend hours have contributed substantially to my overall hours for the year so far.

And you'll have to forgive me if I'm not being too precise here. I want to maintain my anonymity, so naturally I'm going to fudge the numbers a little. But if you want to keep swagging your big billable hour dick around here, be my guest.