Grades don't matter? Forum

[bceagles182]

I really think you need to conduct an honest and thorough cost/benefit analysis of your decisions from this point forward. An LLM is just going to increase your risk with little chance of a return. You are still at a point right now where you can dig yourself out of debt if you stop rolling the dice, but if you continue taking increasingly larger risks, and they don't pay off, that might not always be the case.

[sunynp]

Maybe you are a good candidate for a tax LLM. Do you like tax because if you don't practicing it for the rest of your life will be difficult. Maybe you don't have the personality for big law? Maybe not getting into the biglaw stess factory is the best thing that ever happened to you. Don't worry about what everyone else has, just worry about your own career.

[bceagles182]

A degenerate gambler is someone who continues to gamble beyond the point where can afford to lose.

[luthersloan]

I really think you need to conduct an honest and thorough cost/benefit analysis of your decisions from this point forward. An LLM is just going to increase your risk with little chance of a return. You are still at a point right now where you can dig yourself out of debt if you stop rolling the dice, but if you continue taking increasingly larger risks, and they don't pay off, that might not always be the case.

I think we are talking past each other a bit, my point is that this not just about money. It is true it will be harder to get out of debt if I owe 250 v. 200 (Which is about the difference for me) but the gamble is 50K dollars plus interest against the psychic benefits of not feeling like a fuck up and not being, in the en,d denied something I really want and think I am fairly clearly qualified for. That chance is worth a lot more than 50K to me, plus it is not even entirely clear that I would, in expectation, end up poorer on a cash basis. That is, the value in terms of extra earnings over a career, discounted to present value, might well be greater than 50K plus interest. But that myopic kind of expected value calculation is almost beside the point.

[luthersloan]

Maybe you are a good candidate for a tax LLM. Do you like tax because if you don't practicing it for the rest of your life will be difficult. Maybe you don't have the personality for big law? Maybe not getting into the biglaw stess factory is the best thing that ever happened to you. Don't worry about what everyone else has, just worry about your own career.

Yeah, I do enjoy tax law, but I enjoy all types of law. I have yet to observe any kind of "big law" personalty type. The people I know who have offers range from some of the weirdest folk I have ever met, to cool outgoing aggressive types. While firms to focus a little more on personalty post recession, I just don't buy the big law personalty thing, at least for entry level. There certainly is a fairly distinct type of person who makes partner, though even there there is a range. You are certainly right I might hate it, but I am fine with doing a year or two hating it and leaving. What I cannot deal with is not having a chance to find out.

[drdolittle]

Your NYU degree carries a huge amount of prestige outside of biglaw...

Is this really true? I'd think an NYU law degree and its prestige is really defined by what it means within biglaw, the part of this biz most focused on school prestige. Though NYU's a very solid school, and seemingly getting more prestigious overall, the law school is one of its truly top grad programs that carry significantly more weight within their respective fields than most other NYU degrees. I don't know to what extent this weight translates outside these unique fields.

Anyway, OP, you definitely have the right to feel disappointed with your situation having done so well at a top school. But as to your original question, obviously one of the main things you can do now is to continue performing well. It can't hurt, and it might yet help with whatever you end up doing. As others have mentioned here, I have a hard time believing you won't eventually find something worthwhile with your creds. And if it turns out you can't find what you want, at least you'll know you did as much as feasible.

[Anonymous User]

Why didn't you try clerking Broseph?

I gotta think that good grades and CCN will help at BigFed, but now those jobs are mythical.

As one of the anonymous posters from earlier in a similar situation to the OP, this advice has always been pretty irritating. I love when people say things like oh, no problem, just go out and get a federal clerkship. The one sole interview I managed with a district judge in a fairly rural district I was competing among YLS 3Ls / T14 alums with substantive attorney work experience. It's similar to when people just casually remark, oh why don't you just work for the federal government or do DOJ Honors?? While it's of course dumb not to pursue these options, people really underestimate how competitive they are; by no means are they guaranteed. Perhaps what people might find more interesting is that a lot of smaller firms people tell you to suck it up and work for won't hire you out of your T10/T14 school because they'd rather hire from their local T2/T3 school where most of their attorneys come from. They also sometimes seem somewhat skeptical of grads from top schools and it's a bit of a hurdle to convince them you're truly interested. I've done quite a bit of networking with local attorneys in my home market as well as applied to state trial courts there and these places aren't necessarily as eager to jump on a T10 student as everyone might assume. All in all, while we of course have to hustle if we want something, people really can take for granted how things work when you strike out from a top school.

[Anonymous User]

Why didn't you try clerking Broseph?

I gotta think that good grades and CCN will help at BigFed, but now those jobs are mythical.

As one of the anonymous posters from earlier in a similar situation to the OP, this advice has always been pretty irritating. I love when people say things like oh, no problem, just go out and get a federal clerkship. The one sole interview I managed with a district judge in a fairly rural district I was competing among YLS 3Ls / T14 alums with substantive attorney work experience. It's similar to when people just casually remark, oh why don't you just work for the federal government or do DOJ Honors?? While it's of course dumb not to pursue these options, people really underestimate how competitive they are; by no means are they guaranteed. Perhaps what people might find more interesting is that a lot of smaller firms people tell you to suck it up and work for won't hire you out of your T10/T14 school because they'd rather hire from their local T2/T3 school where most of their attorneys come from. They also sometimes seem somewhat skeptical of grads from top schools and it's a bit of a hurdle to convince them you're truly interested. I've done quite a bit of networking with local attorneys in my home market as well as applied to state trial courts there and these places aren't necessarily as eager to jump on a T10 student as everyone might assume. All in all, while we of course have to hustle if we want something, people really can take for granted how things work when you strike out from a top school.

[sebastian0622]

To be clear: it's not really that you can't get a job, it's that you want a certain type of job because, you know, everyone else at NYU is getting a certain type of job, and it will...like...hurt your feewings if you can't get one too? The same kind of thing we hear from a 15 year-old girl begging her parents to buy her a belly-button ring.

I'm sorry, but that's not very sympathetic. Besides, 80% of your peers who are getting "prestigious" biglaw jobs are going to hate their lives and want to off themselves by taking a butter knife to their throats by next Christmas. This may be serendipitous for you. A chance to dodge biglaw and grow up a bit in the process. I'd start contacting smaller firms ASAP and try to find a good fit. If any of your peers judge you for that, fuck them. Again, they'll feel like tying fishing line around their balls, attaching the other end to a guard rail, and jumping off a bridge by this time next year.

[c3pO4]

OP, I don't think you understand what 200k or 250k in debt means, or you have rich parents that will bail you out. Because nobody in their right mind would chase "prestige" at this point. You realize you are looking at 2.5k/month loan payments for 10 years? If your biglaw gamble doesn't pay off (no reason to think it will-- you already struck out in 2L and 3L OCI), your life is ruined.

I thought your stance was funny and cute last night, but now that I think about it, it's stupid and offensive to people who actually are in a similar position. You wouldn't be talking like you are ("all i care about is not looking like a loser to all my nyu biglaw friends") if the debt actually carried consequences for you.

So, good luck but don't expect any sympathy with your attitude.

[DoubleChecks]

Hmm...I wonder what element of OP's interviewing skills made him strike out at OCI...

/end to my douchebaggery

[Anonymous User]

I love when people say things like oh, no problem, just go out and get a federal clerkship. The one sole interview I managed with a district judge in a fairly rural district I was competing among YLS 3Ls / T14 alums with substantive attorney work experience.

This. Law students who have not gone through the clerkship application process don't realize how brutally competitive it is, at least for 3Ls ITE. Your average on plan district court judge is probably going to get 500 applications for two spots. Your average COA judge is probably going to be closer to 1000. Even the really esoteric off plan non-SDNY/DDC district judge who is only looking for applicants with 2+ years of experience at a big law firm is getting 150+ applications these days. (I have personal knowledge about this.)

Even if you have sterling CCN credentials (top 10%, LR, etc.), the sheer amount of noise from the hundreds of applications makes it very, very difficult for an anonymous law student to get noticed unless you have someone putting in a call for you. The bottom line is that there are probably dozens of applicants with your credentials or better, and judges can only interview a handful of them. They're going to pick the ones who are flagged for them.

(And this doesn't even take into account that many judges -- maybe more than half, at least at the district court level -- will only hire alums. At the end of the day, if you want a Article III clerkship from CCN, you really need to have (a) grades good enough to be a shoo-in for a COA spot, (b) a prof who is willing to make calls, or (c) it becomes a huge crapshoot, even for the students with good credentials.)

[luthersloan]

To be clear: it's not really that you can't get a job, it's that you want a certain type of job because, you know, everyone else at NYU is getting a certain type of job, and it will...like...hurt your feewings if you can't get one too? The same kind of thing we hear from a 15 year-old girl begging her parents to buy her a belly-button ring.

I'm sorry, but that's not very sympathetic. Besides, 80% of your peers who are getting "prestigious" biglaw jobs are going to hate their lives and want to off themselves by taking a butter knife to their throats by next Christmas. This may be serendipitous for you. A chance to dodge biglaw and grow up a bit in the process. I'd start contacting smaller firms ASAP and try to find a good fit. If any of your peers judge you for that, fuck them. Again, they'll feel like tying fishing line around their balls, attaching the other end to a guard rail, and jumping off a bridge by this time next year.

Okay, your analogy to a 15 year-old girl is silly, if you don't understand the difference between a girl who wants a bellybutton ring and a person who works very hard at, and only really care about, their career not being successful then i do not think I am going to be able to explain the difference.

[luthersloan]

OP, I don't think you understand what 200k or 250k in debt means, or you have rich parents that will bail you out. Because nobody in their right mind would chase "prestige" at this point. You realize you are looking at 2.5k/month loan payments for 10 years? If your biglaw gamble doesn't pay off (no reason to think it will-- you already struck out in 2L and 3L OCI), your life is ruined.

I thought your stance was funny and cute last night, but now that I think about it, it's stupid and offensive to people who actually are in a similar position. You wouldn't be talking like you are ("all i care about is not looking like a loser to all my nyu biglaw friends") if the debt actually carried consequences for you.

So, good luck but don't expect any sympathy with your attitude.

Well, friend I was not looking for sympathy so I am not sure why you point out your distinct lack of it. I do not understand how my own decisions about risk taking could be offensive or stupid to people who are in a position like me, I do not even know what you are talking about.

As to the money side, the real comparison is between 250 and 200, i.e. a difference of 50, or about 500 dollars a month. I spend only about 26K dollars a year right now and don't intend to spend more at any point in the future. I don't take vacations, I don't drink or smoke but rarely, don't want a family. etc. If I am only making 60K a year or whatever I will be equally fucked owing 2300 or 2800 a month, if I hit the jackpot it will take me slightly longer to pay off. In my circumstances it is not clear that 50K makes a big difference.

Also, and this is my broader point, it is not amount my friends looking down on me, it is about me looking down on me. Like, I do not have much else in my life beyond a career, and I don't want much else either. Success in my chosen vocation is my measure of self-worth, so it really is not silly to gamble money to try to get more. I do not understand how you think you know better them me what is best for me.

[johansantana21]

Just curious how big OP being a transfer mattered?

[c3pO4]

OP, I don't think you understand what 200k or 250k in debt means, or you have rich parents that will bail you out. Because nobody in their right mind would chase "prestige" at this point. You realize you are looking at 2.5k/month loan payments for 10 years? If your biglaw gamble doesn't pay off (no reason to think it will-- you already struck out in 2L and 3L OCI), your life is ruined.

I thought your stance was funny and cute last night, but now that I think about it, it's stupid and offensive to people who actually are in a similar position. You wouldn't be talking like you are ("all i care about is not looking like a loser to all my nyu biglaw friends") if the debt actually carried consequences for you.

So, good luck but don't expect any sympathy with your attitude.

Well, friend I was not looking for sympathy so I am not sure why you point out your distinct lack of it. I do not understand how my own decisions about risk taking could be offensive or stupid to people who are in a position like me, I do not even know what you are talking about.

As to the money side, the real comparison is between 250 and 200, i.e. a difference of 50, or about 500 dollars a month. I spend only about 26K dollars a year right now and don't intend to spend more at any point in the future. I don't take vacations, I don't drink or smoke but rarely, don't want a family. etc. If I am only making 60K a year or whatever I will be equally fucked owing 2300 or 2800 a month, if I hit the jackpot it will take me slightly longer to pay off. In my circumstances it is not clear that 50K makes a big difference.

Also, and this is my broader point, it is not amount my friends looking down on me, it is about me looking down on me. Like, I do not have much else in my life beyond a career, and I don't want much else either. Success in my chosen vocation is my measure of self-worth, so it really is not silly to gamble money to try to get more. I do not understand how you think you know better them me what is best for me.

Maybe you could use something else in life. Also, your definition of "success" as a lawyer is only one way of looking at it. You could be a very successful lawyer (whether that means in terms of money, experience, respect of your community, making a difference) outside of biglaw.

The reason it's offensive is because how flippant you are about continuing to gamble on an almost impossible chance of biglaw, when in reality many would love to be in your situation with your credentials and would be able to make something of themselves. You came on here to complain, when really the only thing holding you back is your own unwillingness to adapt to changed circumstances and see past an immature view of what it means to become a lawyer.

[sebastian0622]

To be clear: it's not really that you can't get a job, it's that you want a certain type of job because, you know, everyone else at NYU is getting a certain type of job, and it will...like...hurt your feewings if you can't get one too? The same kind of thing we hear from a 15 year-old girl begging her parents to buy her a belly-button ring.

I'm sorry, but that's not very sympathetic. Besides, 80% of your peers who are getting "prestigious" biglaw jobs are going to hate their lives and want to off themselves by taking a butter knife to their throats by next Christmas. This may be serendipitous for you. A chance to dodge biglaw and grow up a bit in the process. I'd start contacting smaller firms ASAP and try to find a good fit. If any of your peers judge you for that, fuck them. Again, they'll feel like tying fishing line around their balls, attaching the other end to a guard rail, and jumping off a bridge by this time next year.

Okay, your analogy to a 15 year-old girl is silly, if you don't understand the difference between a girl who wants a bellybutton ring and a person who works very hard at, and only really care about, their career not being successful then i do not think I am going to be able to explain the difference.

You don't think 15 year-old girls work really hard to attain a certain social status? That's the most important thing in life for a lot of teenagers. And certain law students, apparently.

Your insistence on seeking a big law job for social status, self-image, self-worth, etc. is no different than a teenage girl seeking a belly button ring for social status, self-image, self-worth. People on this board are telling you there are other ways to get those things, but just like that 15 year-old girl, you're not listening because that biglaw belly button ring is the MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD to you right now.

[luthersloan]

Maybe you could use something else in life. Also, your definition of "success" as a lawyer is only one way of looking at it. You could be a very successful lawyer (whether that means in terms of money, experience, respect of your community, making a difference) outside of biglaw.

The reason it's offensive is because how flippant you are about continuing to gamble on an almost impossible chance of biglaw, when in reality many would love to be in your situation with your credentials and would be able to make something of themselves. You came on here to complain, when really the only thing holding you back is your own unwillingness to adapt to changed circumstances and see past an immature view of what it means to become a lawyer.[/quote]

Okay, so we have gone from bad to worse. I did not really come on here to complain, I came on here to observe the irony of the seemingly negative effects of my good grades thus far, hence the title of the thread. Feel free to call that complaining if you want, who cares really.

By your logic, like this whole form is offensive. Like, 95% of people in the world would kill to trade places with someone in the bottom half of the class at thomas cooley, because they would have like regular access to clean drinking water and shelter. So, to the extent I am complaining it is about under shooting my expectations for myself, and the norms of my peer group, which is what most people compare themselves to most of the time.

It is also sort of beside the point to talk about my definition of success, since it is basically a totally subjective thing. As a final point, I am not sure what makes you think you could know better than I what I need to have a happy successful life, like that seems kind of like a deeply personal thing that differs for different people.

[c3pO4]

Okay, so we have gone from bad to worse. I did not really come on here to complain, I came on here to observe the irony of the seemingly negative effects of my good grades thus far, hence the title of the thread. Feel free to call that complaining if you want, who cares really.

By your logic, like this whole form is offensive. Like, 95% of people in the world would kill to trade places with someone in the bottom half of the class at Thomas Cooley, because they would have like regular access to clean drinking water and shelter. So, to the extent I am complaining it is about under shooting my expectations for myself, and the norms of my peer group, which is what most people compare themselves to most of the time.

It is also sort of beside the point to talk about my definition of success, since it is basically a totally subjective thing. As a final point, I am not sure what makes you think you could know better than I what I need to have a happy successful life, like that seems kind of like a deeply personal thing that differs for different people.

OK, it sounds like you have it all figured out. I'm just saying, there is an objective reality out there it just seems like you refuse to see it. And I'm out.

[luthersloan]

You don't think 15 year-old girls work really hard to attain a certain social status? That's the most important thing in life for a lot of teenagers. And certain law students, apparently.

Your insistence on seeking a big law job for social status, self-image, self-worth, etc. is no different than a teenage girl seeking a belly button ring for social status, self-image, self-worth. People on this board are telling you there are other ways to get those things, but just like that 15 year-old girl, you're not listening because that biglaw belly button ring is the MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD to you right now.[/quote]

Well, like to the extent the 15-year old girl is pursing something that is meaningful to her, she is not wrong right? If she is not under any kind of misapprehension she is correct to care so much. I am listening to you, I am saying that against the bench mark of my peer group (I have in fact lost friends over my employment situation) it is totally rational to view not getting big law as a failure. Some maybe it a weird way you are right, both the 15-year old and I are perusing things we care deeply about, like on some level it is a little silly to tell either of us we are wrong since we are almost certainly better judges of our own subjective wants and desires than any outside observer.

[luthersloan]

OK, it sounds like you have it all figured out. I'm just saying, there is an objective reality out there it just seems like you refuse to see it. And I'm out.[/quote]

Okay, but like there is no objective reality to what people should want. Like, the kinds of colors one likes, the kinds of girls or guys, the kinds of houses etc. It is just subjective preferences, outside of rare contexts where we can say that people are clearly delusional or not rational (drug addict, compulsive gamblers) there is no reason to think a persons subjective preferences, because there is no demonstrably correct objective answer.

[smokyroom26]

Well, like to the extent the 15-year old girl is pursing something that is meaningful to her, she is not wrong right? If she is not under any kind of misapprehension she is correct to care so much. I am listening to you, I am saying that against the bench mark of my peer group (I have in fact lost friends over my employment situation) it is totally rational to view not getting big law as a failure. Some maybe it a weird way you are right, both the 15-year old and I are perusing things we care deeply about, like on some level it is a little silly to tell either of us we are wrong since we are almost certainly better judges of our own subjective wants and desires than any outside observer.

Seriously? Dude, those were some truly shitty friends. And I say that without an ounce of snark.

[sebastian0622]

Well, like to the extent the 15-year old girl is pursing something that is meaningful to her, she is not wrong right? If she is not under any kind of misapprehension she is correct to care so much. I am listening to you, I am saying that against the bench mark of my peer group (I have in fact lost friends over my employment situation) it is totally rational to view not getting big law as a failure. Some maybe it a weird way you are right, both the 15-year old and I are perusing things we care deeply about, like on some level it is a little silly to tell either of us we are wrong since we are almost certainly better judges of our own subjective wants and desires than any outside observer.

I have no doubt that in both cases the party valued the thing. But five or ten years later the girl realizes that her parents were right when they told her that the belly button ring was a crappy way to pursue self-worth, and "friends" who would leave the friendship over something as superficial as how hip her jewelry was weren't friends worth having in the first place.

I think you're in a decent position overall and can find a way to practice law, make a good living doing it, and have a long career if this is something you want to do. But you have to get over this prestige thing and this notion that anybody worth keeping in your life should judge you based on whether you have to "settle" for anything less than a V250 firm.

[09042014]

Why didn't you try clerking Broseph?

I gotta think that good grades and CCN will help at BigFed, but now those jobs are mythical.

As one of the anonymous posters from earlier in a similar situation to the OP, this advice has always been pretty irritating. I love when people say things like oh, no problem, just go out and get a federal clerkship. The one sole interview I managed with a district judge in a fairly rural district I was competing among YLS 3Ls / T14 alums with substantive attorney work experience. It's similar to when people just casually remark, oh why don't you just work for the federal government or do DOJ Honors?? While it's of course dumb not to pursue these options, people really underestimate how competitive they are; by no means are they guaranteed. Perhaps what people might find more interesting is that a lot of smaller firms people tell you to suck it up and work for won't hire you out of your T10/T14 school because they'd rather hire from their local T2/T3 school where most of their attorneys come from. They also sometimes seem somewhat skeptical of grads from top schools and it's a bit of a hurdle to convince them you're truly interested. I've done quite a bit of networking with local attorneys in my home market as well as applied to state trial courts there and these places aren't necessarily as eager to jump on a T10 student as everyone might assume. All in all, while we of course have to hustle if we want something, people really can take for granted how things work when you strike out from a top school.

With good grades from T6, asking if he tried to apply to clerkships or fedgov isn't shitty advice. It's not like he goes to Georgetown.

These are two job where he can leverage his school and grades most effectively. Also fedgov != DOJ honors. But like I said fedgov jobs are myth ITE.

Of course he isn't a sure thing for those kind of jobs, but he's got as much chance as anyone.

Also it's stupid to think telling someone to apply to a job is the same as saying that person would easily get it.

[luthersloan]

I have no doubt that in both cases the party valued the thing. But five or ten years later the girl realizes that her parents were right when they told her that the belly button ring was a crappy way to pursue self-worth, and "friends" who would leave the friendship over something as superficial as how hip her jewelry was weren't friends worth having in the first place.

I think you're in a decent position overall and can find a way to practice law, make a good living doing it, and have a long career if this is something you want to do. But you have to get over this prestige thing and this notion that anybody worth keeping in your life should judge you based on whether you have to "settle" for anything less than a V250 firm.[/quote]

I have no doubt that the girl in this example does come to that conclusion sometimes, though it could be asked which of her "selves" was right, but that is fairly tangential since I do not really have any reason to believe I am actually misunderstanding my preferences and making errors of judgement.

More to the point though, I don't really care all that much about what other people think of me, but I do care fairly deeply about what I think of myself. Like the ability to look myself in the mirror and not feel like a failure is important, I understand other people rely on other sources of self-worth and maybe the their are better and maybe they are not. But yeah, high grades and prestigious employment really influences how I see myself. Again, maybe other people who have like families that love them use other things for this purpose, but that is really beside the point.