UVA Law’s Employment Numbers Are Less Than Impressive? Forum

[BruceWayne]

[70 percent of NYU students landed big firm jobs (which ironically enough is roughly equivalent to what we've found out about UVA. 27 percent unemployed or whatever).

LOLWUT

What kind of logic is this?

I don't know, maybe addition/subtraction combined with bullshit internet hearsay? You know that same thing you and rayiner are using? Except apparently you aren't using too much of the math part (Take the so called "data" proclaiming that 70 percent got something out of NYU from biglaw and add 30 percent unemployed to get to 100 percent. Next take the UVA story about 27 percent or so being unemployed and roundi that up to 30 percent. Then subtract that from 100 to get 70 percent employed like the NYU "data". See what I did there?).

[Julio_El_Chavo]

Re: NYU, don't underestimate the legitimate safety-net advantage that comes from half a dozen firms (NYC V10s) with 100-person summer classes willing to take a dozen NYU students each. Talking about 10% article III clerkships versus 12% is hair splitting. Talk about V100 NYC firms going way below median b/c V10s hired up the majority of the top half.

When you're a median 2L in a shit economy filling out bid lists, you don't give a shit that UVA has just as good placement at selective DC firms that you don't have a shot at. You don't care that NU gives you a big edge at Chicago firms hiring 5-7 people each. You want to be at NYU where you can legitimately bid on a ton of firms that still hire 20+ summers and legitimately expect a callback.

No one below median at NYU gets a V10 SA job. HTH

RC fail by you chief.

LR fail by you, chief (and you could use a lesson or two on basic English grammar). You made the unwarranted assumption that I was trying to refute his points. I was merely adding an additional consideration for discussion.

I was pointing out that his argument is almost totally irrelevant to the bottom 50% of the class at NYU. It's the bottom 50% at every T10 law school that's hard to employ, not the top 50%. I think below median people at UVA and NYU have the same kinds of problems finding employment and I don't think being in NYC materially makes things better for below median NYU students.

[BruceWayne]

was pointing out that his argument is almost totally irrelevant to the bottom 50% of the class at NYU. It's the bottom 50% at every T10 law school that's hard to employ, not the top 50%. I think below median people at UVA and NYU have the same kinds of problems finding employment and I don't think being in NYC materially makes things better for below median NYU students.

Exactly. The bottom line is that below median anywhere but HYS is rough. Frankly, below median at NYU vs. UVA or Mich or Duke--whatever, just isn't materially different.

[rayiner]

I was pointing out that his argument is almost totally irrelevant to the bottom 50% of the class at NYU. It's the bottom 50% at every T10 law school that's hard to employ, not the top 50%. I think below median people at UVA and NYU have the same kinds of problems finding employment and I don't think being in NYC materially makes things better for below median NYU students.

What happens to the top half definitely has a bearing on what happens to the bottom half. At most of the T14, V15 places with big summer classes like Paul Weiss or Debevoise want top 20% or so, and will dip down into the top 1/3 for students. At CLS/NYU they look for top 1/3 and will dip down into the top 1/2 (or occasionally even lower). Being in NYC makes all the difference --- CLS/NYU are core recruiting schools for these firms. They don't care a whole lot if they don't get any, say, Michigan students in a given year (which was true at DPW last year) but are looking to hire ~15 students each from CLS/NYU.

Someone below-median at either NYU or UVA is going to target Dewey, Milbank, and other firms that have big classes but aren't that grade-selective. The difference is that at these firms the NYU kid will face much less competition from his above-median peers. Most of the top 1/3 will get a V15 and some of the top 1/2 will as well. At UVA a lot of top 1/3 folks will not get V10, and almost no top 1/2 folks will. This makes a material difference. It's not necessarily the difference between a job and no job, but it does mean substantially better odds of getting a job.

[AmoryB]

I was pointing out that his argument is almost totally irrelevant to the bottom 50% of the class at NYU. It's the bottom 50% at every T10 law school that's hard to employ, not the top 50%. I think below median people at UVA and NYU have the same kinds of problems finding employment and I don't think being in NYC materially makes things better for below median NYU students.

What happens to the top half definitely has a bearing on what happens to the bottom half. At most of the T14, V15 places with big summer classes like Paul Weiss or Debevoise want top 20% or so, and will dip down into the top 1/3 for students. At CLS/NYU they look for top 1/3 and will dip down into the top 1/2 (or occasionally even lower). Being in NYC makes all the difference --- CLS/NYU are core recruiting schools for these firms. They don't care a whole lot if they don't get any, say, Michigan students in a given year (which was true at DPW last year) but are looking to hire ~15 students each from CLS/NYU.

Someone below-median at either NYU or UVA is going to target Dewey, Milbank, and other firms that have big classes but aren't that grade-selective. The difference is that at these firms the NYU kid will face much less competition from his above-median peers. Most of the top 1/3 will get a V15 and some of the top 1/2 will as well. At UVA a lot of top 1/3 folks will not get V10, and almost no top 1/2 folks will. This makes a material difference. It's not necessarily the difference between a job and no job, but it does mean substantially better odds of getting a job.

I realize that most of this is speculative, but to what extent do you think this argument would apply to a comparison between NYU and Penn placement for students at NYC biglaw?

[rayiner]

I was pointing out that his argument is almost totally irrelevant to the bottom 50% of the class at NYU. It's the bottom 50% at every T10 law school that's hard to employ, not the top 50%. I think below median people at UVA and NYU have the same kinds of problems finding employment and I don't think being in NYC materially makes things better for below median NYU students.

What happens to the top half definitely has a bearing on what happens to the bottom half. At most of the T14, V15 places with big summer classes like Paul Weiss or Debevoise want top 20% or so, and will dip down into the top 1/3 for students. At CLS/NYU they look for top 1/3 and will dip down into the top 1/2 (or occasionally even lower). Being in NYC makes all the difference --- CLS/NYU are core recruiting schools for these firms. They don't care a whole lot if they don't get any, say, Michigan students in a given year (which was true at DPW last year) but are looking to hire ~15 students each from CLS/NYU.

Someone below-median at either NYU or UVA is going to target Dewey, Milbank, and other firms that have big classes but aren't that grade-selective. The difference is that at these firms the NYU kid will face much less competition from his above-median peers. Most of the top 1/3 will get a V15 and some of the top 1/2 will as well. At UVA a lot of top 1/3 folks will not get V10, and almost no top 1/2 folks will. This makes a material difference. It's not necessarily the difference between a job and no job, but it does mean substantially better odds of getting a job.

I realize that most of this is speculative, but to what extent do you think this argument would apply to a comparison between NYU and Penn placement for students at NYC biglaw?

Less of a difference between NYU and Penn for NYC big law. From the numbers I have, NYC firms will go pretty deep into Penn's class for students. However, every NYC V100 firm seems CLS/NYU as core recruiting schools. The big ones will go into EIP expecting to hire 10-20 people. This is less true for Penn, and varies by firm. Some firms love Penn relative to the other T7-14 (Wachtell). Others don't seem to treat it any differently.