UChicago 2011 OCI Discussion and Results Forum

[Anonymous User]

I get the feeling tons of people will bid on NY and create a massive glut. This will make things a lot easier for those bidding on Chicago.

Would not be surprised one iota

[Anonymous User]

How far down can we safely put the big chicago firms

I put Sidley somewhere at 7-10 last year and didn't get an interview.

[Helmholtz]

How far down can we safely put the big chicago firms

I put Sidley somewhere at 7-10 last year and didn't get an interview.

I would love to see this sort of thing, except for the NYC firms (i.e. "I put firm X at spot Y and didn't get an interview," or "I put firm Z at spot A and did get an interview").

[Anonymous User]

I get the feeling tons of people will bid on NY and create a massive glut. This will make things a lot easier for those bidding on Chicago.

Would not be surprised one iota

From talking to other students I have not gotten this feeling at all. The only people I know bidding New York are people who actually want to be there, which is not many people. Remember that only a small portion of the class is on TLS, and OCS has not said anything to make people think that New York is easier.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Does anybody know what's going on with Katten? They went from 5 2L SAs in 2010 to 18 expected for this summer and they only have 18 interview slots for next year.

[TaipeiMort]

Does anybody know what's going on with Katten? They went from 5 2L SAs in 2010 to 18 expected for this summer and they only have 18 interview slots for next year.

Stop outing the secret, easy Chicago firms. Keep the cost of information high.

[Anonymous User]

Helmholtz....For some reason I thought you were at Michigan?

[ndirish2010]

Helmholtz....For some reason I thought you were at Michigan?

I think he is.

[JollyGreenGiant]

He's just very helpful fellow that knows a lot about many universities.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Does anybody know what's going on with Katten? They went from 5 2L SAs in 2010 to 18 expected for this summer and they only have 18 interview slots for next year.

Stop outing the secret, easy Chicago firms. Keep the cost of information high.

haha but I'm genuinely curious. Are they anticipating a giant shrinkage?

[Anonymous User]

I always thought Helmholtz referred to the professor, until I actually had Helmholz and realized the tls guy has a t before the z.

Also: everyone is on TLS.

[Helmholtz]

Also: everyone is on TLS.

This is surprisingly true. There seems to be a mindset that TLS is still the best-kept secret in the law school biz, but seriously, everybody is on here -- even if they just lurk. At least this has been my experience.

[Anonymous User]

NYC is definitely easier than Chicago; it will be easier regardless of how many of your peers use NYC as a backup. There are just many more jobs available there (and, from my limited experience, many more associates getting churned out after a year or two as well). I would bid NYC firms you like slightly lower than Chicago firms you like if you're bidding both but prefer Chicago. Then you can alternate between Chicago and NYC below that.

I did OCI in 09, when it seemed like everybody was bidding Chicago (which turned out to be a bad idea)--but still I don't think very many people got shut out of interviews.

FWIW, I bid two cities--regional non-Chicago for all my top slots, and DC firms below that. I think I used less than 25 of my bids. I got everything I wanted minus one firm--and I could have picked that one up day of if I had felt like I needed it. It was scheduled for the second week though, and I had enough callbacks by then that I decided to let it go.

Reminders: DON'T bid more than 3 cities, especially if you're above median. Scheduling highly dispersed callbacks is a mess. But DO bid 2 cities, even if you have your heart set on one. A job in a city you didn't want is better than no job at all.

[Anonymous User]

How far down can we safely put the big chicago firms

I put Sidley somewhere at 7-10 last year and didn't get an interview.

I believe that OCS didn't give out any sort of GPA callback data last year? I could be wrong, but if that's the case, then relying too heavily on last years results may be unwise. This year there's no excuse for below median people to have almost any of the top Chicago firms in their top 5-10 bids. The callback report shows that below median people have no shot at Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, Skadden, Mayer, and a few others.

[Anonymous User]

How far down can we safely put the big chicago firms

I put Sidley somewhere at 7-10 last year and didn't get an interview.

I believe that OCS didn't give out any sort of GPA callback data last year? I could be wrong, but if that's the case, then relying too heavily on last years results may be unwise. This year there's no excuse for below median people to have almost any of the top Chicago firms in their top 5-10 bids. The callback report shows that below median people have no shot at Kirkland, Sidley, Latham, Skadden, Mayer, and a few others.

Think transfers should have a mix of aggressive (K&E, Sidley, etc.) and more reserved bids in the top 10? I feel like it's kind of a crapshoot for transfers right now.

[Anonymous User]

so, if three or four of my top ten picks have 42 interview slots apiece, i'm not going to screw myself by dropping them into the teens? i'm bidding straight new york.

You will not be screwing yourself. Anyone not at the very top of the class who is bidding New York will want to get plenty of interviews with the generally less selective 21 slot firms. Many of the firms with 42 slots are out of reach for at least half the class. Every year we only send around 40 people to New York. Even if a lot of people use leftover bids on New York firms, it is very unlikely that any of the 42 slots firms would fill-up in the first 10 bids. Now, if there is one firm that you think you are well qualified for and that you really want to work for, maybe bid it in your top 10 just so you don't have to worry about it. Otherwise, I think people bidding New York should plan to use at least their first 10 bids, or more if you are median or lower, exclusively on firms with 21 slots.

To address the idea that everyone is going to bid New York this year:
A lot of people come to this UChicago because they want to be in Chicago. This isn't like deciding to bid on New York rather than DC, there are much larger differences in cost of living and quality of life in the minds of most UChicago students. The people most likely to to ignore a desire to be in Chicago and go for New York because it might be easier will be people around and below median. These people will not be even remotely competitive for most of the New York firms with 42 slots, so they will focus their efforts on the 21 slot firms. Basically, it's possible that more people will bid New York this year, but I would expect any increased competitiveness for New York firm interviews to mostly be seen in the firms that are not overly selective and that have only 21 slots.

What are some of the less selective NYC firms with 21 slots? I'm coming in as a transfer so the callback report #s didn't really do anything for me.

I think Curtis Mallet-Prevost, hogan lovells, Hughes Hubbard, Kramer Levin, Mintz Levin, Orrick and Proskauer all have reps as being friendly to students around median. This list is not exhaustive and others may disagree with some of the firms. Yet, I think students at or below median should likely have several of these firms in their top 10 bids.

[Whatisthis]

So there is no incentive to bid before the deadline (besides getting it over with), correct?

Also, anyone have any idea how competitive Southern California interview spots are?

[Emma.]

So there is no incentive to bid before the deadline (besides getting it over with), correct?

Also, anyone have any idea how competitive Southern California interview spots are?

No reason to bid early at all. Also be careful because if you input some bid slots and then change your resume for some reason you have to manually update your resume with the bids you've already placed.

[Anonymous User]

so, if three or four of my top ten picks have 42 interview slots apiece, i'm not going to screw myself by dropping them into the teens? i'm bidding straight new york.

You will not be screwing yourself. Anyone not at the very top of the class who is bidding New York will want to get plenty of interviews with the generally less selective 21 slot firms. Many of the firms with 42 slots are out of reach for at least half the class. Every year we only send around 40 people to New York. Even if a lot of people use leftover bids on New York firms, it is very unlikely that any of the 42 slots firms would fill-up in the first 10 bids. Now, if there is one firm that you think you are well qualified for and that you really want to work for, maybe bid it in your top 10 just so you don't have to worry about it. Otherwise, I think people bidding New York should plan to use at least their first 10 bids, or more if you are median or lower, exclusively on firms with 21 slots.

To address the idea that everyone is going to bid New York this year:
A lot of people come to this UChicago because they want to be in Chicago. This isn't like deciding to bid on New York rather than DC, there are much larger differences in cost of living and quality of life in the minds of most UChicago students. The people most likely to to ignore a desire to be in Chicago and go for New York because it might be easier will be people around and below median. These people will not be even remotely competitive for most of the New York firms with 42 slots, so they will focus their efforts on the 21 slot firms. Basically, it's possible that more people will bid New York this year, but I would expect any increased competitiveness for New York firm interviews to mostly be seen in the firms that are not overly selective and that have only 21 slots.

What are some of the less selective NYC firms with 21 slots? I'm coming in as a transfer so the callback report #s didn't really do anything for me.

I think Curtis Mallet-Prevost, Hogan Lovells, Hughes Hubbard, Kramer Levin, Mintz Levin, Orrick and Proskauer all have reps as being friendly to students around median. This list is not exhaustive and others may disagree with some of the firms. Yet, I think students at or below median should likely have several of these firms in their top 10 bids.

What is this "at or below median" crap? From plenty of anecdotal evidence, and discussions with hiring folks, it sounds like you need at least above a 178.5 or a 179 to actually receive a significant grade boost. There are only a few actually selective firms at OCI. They can't put on your bio on their website "almost got law review." Therefore, they are just looking at factors that are indicative of you actually contributing to their bottom line. Less-than law review grades may be a proxy, but so is work experience, technical skill sets, personality, and a lot of other things for firms that don't have hard cut-offs.

I guess if you want to say "at or below median" without work experience, technical skill sets, interviewing ability, physical attractiveness, or personality, this may be accurate.

Also, please define "at or below median." This year law review write-on was something like 180.45. This means that the top-ten percent may have received more than half of the 180+ grades available. Faculty and law review people were apparently shocked at how high the average was-- it was like a 179.6 or something last year. If the bottom people were likewise clustered, the "at or below median group" could be something like 80-percent. If you want to count the median as 176-178.5, seventy percent of the class could be in this group.

Also, addressing Kirkland and Sidley directly, I spoke with a partner at Kirkland who straight-faced said that my slightly above-median grades would in no way disqualify me, and that relevant work experience and technical skills easily trump a point or two on Chicago's system. The only people who they can actually tell through grades are smarter than everyone else are those with almost law-review-level grades, everything else is a crap-shoot.

[Anonymous User]

This year law review write-on was something like 180.45. This means that the top-ten percent may have received more than half of the 180+ grades available.

Is this because the top 10% performed more consistently or because of grade inflation? Where did you get this information?

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

This year law review write-on was something like 180.45. This means that the top-ten percent may have received more than half of the 180+ grades available.

Is this because the top 10% performed more consistently or because of grade inflation? Where did you get this information?

Can't say, two good sources, from what I know, not grade inflation, just the same people getting high, high grades.

It would take a conspiracy among all of the professors, which would be like herding cats, to inflate at Chicago. Can you imagine personalities like Posner, Baird, Levmore, Epstein, or Helmotz saying "oh yeah, sure, I will manufacture a different average than what has been published, so that we can inflate grades. That sounds really fun being unethical so that we can trick law firm employers for one year."

[Anonymous User]

This year law review write-on was something like 180.45. This means that the top-ten percent may have received more than half of the 180+ grades available.

Is this because the top 10% performed more consistently or because of grade inflation? Where did you get this information?

This sounds right to me, I know someone with grades just below this range who didn't make it. K&E cutoff was similarly high, above 181.1. I'd concur with the previous poster that it is unlikely to be grade inflation.

[trudat15]

Also, anyone have any idea how competitive Southern California interview spots are?

Would love to know this too...

[cranberry]

Also be careful because if you input some bid slots and then change your resume for some reason you have to manually update your resume with the bids you've already placed.

If you want to update all the bids to your new default resume you just click "Update All" under Default OCI Resume at the top of the OCI page.