30,000 legal jobs per year? Forum

[ToTransferOrNot]

Fuck, I'm a goddamn idiot.

By your own logic, yes. It is foolish to enter law school with such an unrealistic goal, one that is almost a mathematical uncertainty, and have no other plan. Is that not what you and everyone else who makes bitter posts toward bright eyed law school hopefuls are trying to say? Isn't the idea of BigLaw or bust the dangerous idealism that this forum is largely dedicated to warning against? What makes you special? What gives you the ability to be the arbiter of pragmatism and simultaneously transcend it? THAT is what my initial frustration was directed towards.

I'll come out and say it: I was a fool to go to law school.

However, I was less of a fool than most people. In-state tuition at Wisconsin is $15k a year. I was looking at $80k in debt, not $180k.

Then I won the grade lottery, and transfered, so my $180k in debt isn't insane, in hindsight. Of course, I came damned close to striking out at OCI - so the decision to transfer in the first instance was a risky one. I took out a $100k lottery ticket - and it paid off, but just barely.

Just because some of us win the lottery doesn't mean it was smart to put $80k or $180k on a 10% chance in the first instance.

Of course, my opportunity cost was also very low (contrary to popular belief, there aren't any jobs available in teaching, either, particular music education). It was law school or wait tables - and I grew up with parents who were wait staff, and I refused to have that be my life. But, I was still a fool to go to law school.

Edit: Finally, at least for those of us who are 3Ls, the writing wasn't on the wall in quite the same way as it is now. There were warning signs, certainly, but they weren't quite as obvious.

[JazzOne]

Fuck, I'm a goddamn idiot.

By your own logic, yes. It is foolish to enter law school with such an unrealistic goal, one that is almost a mathematical uncertainty, and have no other plan. Is that not what you and everyone else who makes bitter posts toward bright eyed law school hopefuls are trying to say? Isn't the idea of BigLaw or bust the dangerous idealism that this forum is largely dedicated to warning against? What makes you special? What gives you the ability to be the arbiter of pragmatism and simultaneously transcend it? THAT is what my initial frustration was directed towards.

THAT is what this entire field is about. We all thought we were special. Law school is kind of like boot camp, though. Even when you win, you lose.

[xyzbca]

By your own logic, yes. It is foolish to enter law school with such an unrealistic goal, one that is almost a mathematical uncertainty, and have no other plan. Is that not what you and everyone else who makes bitter posts toward bright eyed law school hopefuls are trying to say? Isn't the idea of BigLaw or bust the dangerous idealism that this forum is largely dedicated to warning against? What makes you special? What gives you the ability to be the arbiter of pragmatism and simultaneously transcend it? THAT is what my initial frustration was directed towards.

The focus on Biglaw and money comes from the harsh reality that hits from missing the Biglaw train. Law school will cost me just shy of $100K. That is $100K that could be put into my son's college fund, my retirement account, to pay down our debt (cut our mortgage principle in half!) or any other pressing need.

Take it from somebody who is comfortably Top 10% at a T1 (which hopefully should be good enough). Every single day I think about the fact that my wife is working and my son is in daycare so that we can afford law school. Given the sacrifice involved for them, I need to see some tangible benefit for my family beyond my own personal happiness as an attorney.

And yes, at the time I matriculated, I was a fool that ignored well intentioned friends and former professors from UG who tried to warn me off. There is simply no way to know if one is going to be Top 10% and it is a significant financial risk to take. A risk that can't be fully appreciated until after the first round of grades come out.

Granted, I'm in my late 20's and have a different perspective on the matter, but the younger folks in law school have caught on. $150,000 in debt with no job or a low paying job is a really bad spot to be in.

Edit: typo

[JazzOne]

Fuck, I'm a goddamn idiot.

By your own logic, yes. It is foolish to enter law school with such an unrealistic goal, one that is almost a mathematical uncertainty, and have no other plan. Is that not what you and everyone else who makes bitter posts toward bright eyed law school hopefuls are trying to say? Isn't the idea of BigLaw or bust the dangerous idealism that this forum is largely dedicated to warning against? What makes you special? What gives you the ability to be the arbiter of pragmatism and simultaneously transcend it? THAT is what my initial frustration was directed towards.

I'll come out and say it: I was a fool to go to law school.

However, I was less of a fool than most people. In-state tuition at Wisconsin is $15k a year. I was looking at $80k in debt, not $180k.

Then I won the grade lottery, and transfered, so my $180k in debt isn't insane, in hindsight. Of course, I came damned close to striking out at OCI - so the decision to transfer in the first instance was a risky one. I took out a $100k lottery ticket - and it paid off, but just barely.

Just because some of us win the lottery doesn't mean it was smart to put $80k or $180k on a 10% chance in the first instance.

Of course, my opportunity cost was also very low (contrary to popular belief, there aren't any jobs available in teaching, either, particular music education). It was law school or wait tables - and I grew up with parents who were wait staff, and I refused to have that be my life. But, I was still a fool to go to law school.

Edit: Finally, at least for those of us who are 3Ls, the writing wasn't on the wall in quite the same way as it is now. There were warning signs, certainly, but they weren't quite as obvious.

+1

I was foolish as well. All the facts were available to me, and I chose to take a big gamble. I guess those of us who got biglaw offers feel like we should project this negative attitude because others tend to disregard our warnings. They just focus on the fact that we bucked the odds. But now that we know how the deck was stacked against us from the beginning, we want others to know it is a foolish bet.

And I was not biglaw or bust. I was just tired of teaching.

[General Tso]

+1

I was foolish as well. All the facts were available to me, and I chose to take a big gamble. I guess those of us who got biglaw offers feel like we should project this negative attitude because others tend to disregard our warnings. They just focus on the fact that we bucked the odds. But now that we know how the deck was stacked against us from the beginning, we want others to know it is a foolish bet.

And I was not biglaw or bust. I was just tired of teaching.

+2

I was foolish. I kinda believed my parents when they told me as a kid that "you can be whatever you want to be." I am a smart guy, did very well at all levels of school prior to LS (although I am somewhat of a 'big fish in small pond' coming out of small town America). I love to research and write non-fiction. That's what I did best in undergrad, and that's still my biggest strength now. journalism is a dead career path, academia is a dead career path, and I thought that the legal field would be the best place to apply my skills. But just as a NCAA-quality athlete knows....if you can't make it to the pros, that is if the "skills dont pay the bills" then what's the point?

Long story short -- don't believe that old lie that you can do whatever you are enjoy, whatever you have a passion for, or whatever you think your skill set is best suited for. That lie is about 20 years out of date. It hearkens back to an era when tuition was $200 a semester, 10% of people had college degrees, and Chairman Mao was self-imploding the Chinese economy. Do whatever pays the bills. Finance, accounting, medicine, etc.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Do whatever pays the bills that you can actually do.

I sure as hell could not do finance, medicing, accounting, etc. I don't have the mind for numbers required.

[General Tso]

Do whatever pays the bills that you can actually do.

I sure as hell could not do finance, medicing, accounting, etc. I don't have the mind for numbers required.

I am sure that you do. Most people smart enough to attend law school are smart enough to do math...they simply don't enjoy it. What do you think would be your best alternative career?

[LurkerNoMore]

Actually, I completely realize that. That is why 1) I am not banking on being in the 10% of my class and 2) I am confused, curious, and somewhat irked at posters who carry an air of pragmatism while studying in law school and placing all of their hope in getting a BigLaw job, as though that "mathematical certainty" of not making the top 10% somehow did not apply to them. I realize that I have a small chance of landing a Big Law job. That is why I am opening myself to other possibilities before the hollow "dream" of such a job is crushed for me at OCI. One CAN do something else with a JD and still be able to survive.

1.) Are you banking on that in a smart way? Is your debt load going to be able to be carried by a realistic salary from the school you are going to? Do you have a detailed plan for what happens if you wind up in a worst case scenario?
If so, there aren't many people around here that would have an issue with it.

2.) Several explanations for this:
-- anyone who is a 3L or beyond did not make the decision to go to law school with the same economic realities that exist today. They are able speak to the way that statistics you will read are just flat out useless in predicting your ability to get a job out of law school. Stats are out from the time before the crash of the economy. 3Ls and grads talk a lot about the reality on the ground to counteract this.

-- a lot of the more vocal people practiced what they preached. They went to schools with placement rates that were way above 10%. They limited debt. They had plans on how to tackle debt. They took a *calculated* risk.

-- some people went in blindly. They have since learned something from the process. They are stuck. Why shouldn't they burst 0Ls' bubble?

[icouldbuyu]

+1

I was foolish as well. All the facts were available to me, and I chose to take a big gamble. I guess those of us who got biglaw offers feel like we should project this negative attitude because others tend to disregard our warnings. They just focus on the fact that we bucked the odds. But now that we know how the deck was stacked against us from the beginning, we want others to know it is a foolish bet.

And I was not biglaw or bust. I was just tired of teaching.

+2

I was foolish. I kinda believed my parents when they told me as a kid that "you can be whatever you want to be." I am a smart guy, did very well at all levels of school prior to LS (although I am somewhat of a 'big fish in small pond' coming out of small town America). I love to research and write non-fiction. That's what I did best in undergrad, and that's still my biggest strength now. journalism is a dead career path, academia is a dead career path, and I thought that the legal field would be the best place to apply my skills. But just as a NCAA-quality athlete knows....if you can't make it to the pros, that is if the "skills dont pay the bills" then what's the point?

Long story short -- don't believe that old lie that you can do whatever you are enjoy, whatever you have a passion for, or whatever you think your skill set is best suited for. That lie is about 20 years out of date. It hearkens back to an era when tuition was $200 a semester, 10% of people had college degrees, and Chairman Mao was self-imploding the Chinese economy. Do whatever pays the bills. Finance, accounting, medicine, etc.

Why do people keep mentioning these fields as great money making fields? I worked in both Finance and Accounting and turned my back on them. Finance results in a crappy dead end such as operations unless you graduate from UPenn, MIT, or Harvard. Accountants work like dogs so that they can make $5 an hour. (Not exaggerating) My boss was the head of tax from a major investment bank. She worked there 25 years and worked nearly 12 hours/day just to make 120k per year.

Finally, Medicine isn't so clear cut neither. My friend goes to NYU Med school, but is considering dropping out to become a teacher because he says the medical industry is changing. The specialties that make all the money are extremely difficult to get, and everything else pays crap. People on TLS are just biased. Everybody is feeling the pain of this economy. It's not just the legal industry.

[General Tso]

Why do people keep mentioning these fields as great money making fields? I worked in both Finance and Accounting and turned my back on them. Finance results in a crappy dead end such as operations unless you graduate from UPenn, MIT, or Harvard. Accountants work like dogs so that they can make $5 an hour. (Not exaggerating) My boss was the head of tax from a major investment bank. She worked there 25 years and worked nearly 12 hours/day just to make 120k per year.

Finally, Medicine isn't so clear cut neither. My friend goes to NYU Med school, but is considering dropping out to become a teacher because he says the medical industry is changing. The specialties that make all the money are extremely difficult to get, and everything else pays crap. People on TLS are just biased. Everybody is feeling the pain of this economy. It's not just the legal industry.

I kind of agree with you, but then if you search craigslist, a full 75% of the "business" jobs are looking for people with degrees in finance/accountancy/economics. Granted that sector is weak right now, but I'd much rather be a 2010 finance/acct. grad than a 2010 English/political science grad.

My impression is that a lot of MD student whining is unjustified. Sure they have to be in school plus residency for 6 years or whatever, but they are pretty much guaranteed a 150k+ job upon graduation. Yeah the hours are long, but the hours are long in ANY profession that pays that kind of money. And many of them are too blinded by propaganda to realize that Obamacare is going to help them considerably.

[IAFG]

How many fresh law school grads with zero skills do you think can hack it as a solo practitioner?

I am pretty sure I can. I know my way around a law library and a practitioner's guide.

Have some pretty good marketing ideas too.

Have fun paying for all of the overhead (research costs, malpractice insurance costs, virtual office aren't allowed in all states so rent, etc) as one of a bajillion solo pracs.

1. law libraries are free
2. malpractice insurance is around $7,000 per year
3. my state allows virtual office
4. don't need a paralegal at first
5. loan payments will be ~$700 per month
6. SO can pay rent, bills

I'd probably need to make 20-25k just to break even. Not great, but better than being Corsair'd.

wow... that is a supportive SO, to let you chase your dream in the face of grim prospects.

[General Tso]

wow... that is a supportive SO, to let you chase your dream in the face of grim prospects.

as opposed to what, leaving me for someone with better $$ potential?

[icouldbuyu]

I kind of agree with you, but then if you search craigslist, a full 75% of the "business" jobs are looking for people with degrees in finance/accountancy/economics. Granted that sector is weak right now, but I'd much rather be a 2010 finance/acct. grad than a 2010 English/political science grad.

I agree with you partially on this. Obviously you're at a disadvantage if you're a liberal arts major because no firm will higher you if you don't even know what an interest rate is. However, I'm an accounting/finance major and am going to graduate top of my school's undergraduate business program. (Currently leading the running for valedictorian) Even though my school's undergraduate business program is highly acclaimed and is located in NY, the only jobs that I can get are in accounting and operations making 55k. (The good jobs in IB and trading are almost exclusively reserved for the top students at MIT, Harvard, and Penn.) Having experience in both fields, I know that both industries will be mostly outsourced in the near future. Both jobs are idiot-proof and should rightly be outsourced. Why pay me 55k to do something someone in india will do for 2k?

My impression is that a lot of MD student whining is unjustified. Sure they have to be in school plus residency for 6 years or whatever, but they are pretty much guaranteed a 150k+ job upon graduation. Yeah the hours are long, but the hours are long in ANY profession that pays that kind of money. And many of them are too blinded by propaganda to realize that Obamacare is going to help them considerably.

At first, I thought he was whining too, but i actually did some research and found out its partially true. Experienced general practitioners in NY make on average 100k. 100k is crap for NY's high cost of living.

Finally, I think many kids on TLS are missing the key to attending law school. I read an article, which put it best. If you're going to make it as a lawyer, then you have to be a hustler. Many kids who go to law school are at the top of their class, but have no social skills. I dont care how smart you are, if you can't communicate with others, then you're going to fail in life.

[General Tso]

1. 55k is damn good money for someone with an UG degree only (although I too worry about the long-term future of accounting work due to outsourcing).
2. link on the 100k GP salary in NY? Everything I have read is that GPs get around 150k while specialists get 250-400k depending on speciality and location.

[XxSpyKEx]

You do realize that it's a mathematical certainty that the vast majority of people won't be in the top 10%, right?

No way dude. Over 50% of the class at Northwestern graduates in the top 10%.

Edit: Finally, at least for those of us who are 3Ls, the writing wasn't on the wall in quite the same way as it is now. There were warning signs, certainly, but they weren't quite as obvious.

I'd say the warning signs were almost transparent. We had class of 2007 stats to base our decisions off of, and class of 2007 did pretty damn well. I recall reading a WSJ article last year that said that the other year was the worst year in legal hiring in the past 50 years. There was really no way anyone in the c/o 2011 could have predicted that going in back in 2008. I mean this is like not buying a Honda today because you predict that Honda engine is going to blow up in the next month and Honda will have liquidated by then. (Honda being a company that's known for building incredibly strong engines, similar to how the t14 was known for basically everyone doing pretty well for at least nearly 2 decades now -- not that everyone got biglaw even during the boom, but people who didn't at least got 50+ attorney law firms (i.e. midlaw), which pay salaries between $80-120k, and that ain't bad in comparison to now where people at t14s aren't finding any paying legal jobs).

[IAFG]

wow... that is a supportive SO, to let you chase your dream in the face of grim prospects.

as opposed to what, leaving me for someone with better $$ potential?

Someone who pays half the rent?

[ToTransferOrNot]

wow... that is a supportive SO, to let you chase your dream in the face of grim prospects.

as opposed to what, leaving me for someone with better $$ potential?

Someone who pays half the rent?

I love it when people get all aghast when you suggest that financial stability is an important consideration in relationships.

[IAFG]

wow... that is a supportive SO, to let you chase your dream in the face of grim prospects.

as opposed to what, leaving me for someone with better $$ potential?

Someone who pays half the rent?

I love it when people get all aghast when you suggest that financial stability is an important consideration in relationships.

i mean, i am not saying you should chase money in relationships, but if your conscious backup plan in a high-risk venture is expecting someone else to pay your living expenses... dunno, just seems a little wrong. unless they're super wealthy and specifically are encouraging that, i guess?

[General Tso]

wow... that is a supportive SO, to let you chase your dream in the face of grim prospects.

as opposed to what, leaving me for someone with better $$ potential?

Someone who pays half the rent?

my g/f is getting much more out of me than half the rent

[icouldbuyu]

1. 55k is damn good money for someone with an UG degree only (although I too worry about the long-term future of accounting work due to outsourcing).
2. link on the 100k GP salary in NY? Everything I have read is that GPs get around 150k while specialists get 250-400k depending on speciality and location.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job ... ner/Salary

I was offered 65k and turned it down. When you consider that you'll be working about 60 hours/week, 65k ain't so great. I refuse to sell myself short. I understand the difficulties in obtaining Big Law, but I know plenty of people who went to tier 3 law schools and made a fortune. I think if you're smart enough, you don't get a JD so you can work in Big Law. You get a JD because it'll give you a competitive advantage in the business world. For example, I have a friend who got his JD from a Tier 3 and is thriving in construction. Having a JD opens tons of doors if you know how to utilize it.

In regards to the MD, I was a little off. But we also forget to take Malpractice insurance into consideration when looking at this number. Another thing is that the specialties are extremely competitive and hard to get. The difficulty in getting into the specialties is basically comparable to the difficulty in getting Big Law.

[IAFG]

my g/f is getting much more out of me than half the rent

paying it off in cunnilingus? ehh i guess that's allowed.

[romothesavior]

I understand the difficulties in obtaining Big Law, but I know plenty of people who went to tier 3 law schools and made a fortune.

lol

I think if you're smart enough, you don't get a JD so you can work in Big Law. You get a JD because it'll give you a competitive advantage in the business world.

LOL

Having a JD opens tons of doors if you know how to utilize it.

ROTFL LOLOLOL

[icouldbuyu]

I understand the difficulties in obtaining Big Law, but I know plenty of people who went to tier 3 law schools and made a fortune.

lol

I think if you're smart enough, you don't get a JD so you can work in Big Law. You get a JD because it'll give you a competitive advantage in the business world.

LOL

Having a JD opens tons of doors if you know how to utilize it.

ROTFL LOLOLOL

If you're a herb with no balls, then obviously the above doesn't apply.

[XxSpyKEx]

1. 55k is damn good money for someone with an UG degree only (although I too worry about the long-term future of accounting work due to outsourcing).
2. link on the 100k GP salary in NY? Everything I have read is that GPs get around 150k while specialists get 250-400k depending on speciality and location.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job ... ner/Salary

I was offered 65k and turned it down. When you consider that you'll be working about 60 hours/week, 65k ain't so great. I refuse to sell myself short. I understand the difficulties in obtaining Big Law, but I know plenty of people who went to tier 3 law schools and made a fortune. I think if you're smart enough, you don't get a JD so you can work in Big Law. You get a JD because it'll give you a competitive advantage in the business world. For example, I have a friend who got his JD from a Tier 3 and is thriving in construction. Having a JD opens tons of doors if you know how to utilize it.

And the prize for the dumbest post in the thread goes to...

You ever hear of an MBA?

[icouldbuyu]

1. 55k is damn good money for someone with an UG degree only (although I too worry about the long-term future of accounting work due to outsourcing).
2. link on the 100k GP salary in NY? Everything I have read is that GPs get around 150k while specialists get 250-400k depending on speciality and location.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job ... ner/Salary

I was offered 65k and turned it down. When you consider that you'll be working about 60 hours/week, 65k ain't so great. I refuse to sell myself short. I understand the difficulties in obtaining Big Law, but I know plenty of people who went to tier 3 law schools and made a fortune. I think if you're smart enough, you don't get a JD so you can work in Big Law. You get a JD because it'll give you a competitive advantage in the business world. For example, I have a friend who got his JD from a Tier 3 and is thriving in construction. Having a JD opens tons of doors if you know how to utilize it.

And the prize for the dumbest post in the thread goes to...

You ever hear of an MBA?

What you should've said is CFA, not MBA. MBA is worthless if you don't already work in reputable position. I used to work with kids who were still interns making 20/hour even though they had MBA's. My illiterate grandmother has an MBA, so how does that make you different. What are going to learn of any use in an MBA program: what's an interest rate? Whereas, learning about contracts and tax laws has practical applications. Further, by business world, I'm not talking about working in operations; I'm talking about opening a business or in my case starting a tax practice.