Things You Wish You Would Have Known Before OCI Forum

[pasteurizedmilk]

On underbidding: I think that people flocked to the "least-selective" firms, which resulted in fewer interviews per bid. It seems the secret ninja bidding technique was to use your weakest bids on super-selective firms, because most people are panicking and going for what sound like the least-selective.

I ninja bid. Had ~ 35 bids. Put a few V10s at the very bottom and ended up with interviews/callbacks with them.

This is VERY good advice. Follow it.

Other people mentioned this, but it should be stressed. Bid on NYC. Seriously. Just do it. Even if you hate NYC - a job beats no job, no matter where it is.

[Anonymous User]

This combined with the "GPA is honestly not that determinative at many firms; your interviewing style matters a lot" advice is like a fucking five point exploding heart technique for OCI.

I had heard something like that from career counselors, but I (I think justifiably) interpreted it as a combination of trying to spread some mostly baseless hope (like, "Oh, Harvard sometimes takes people with lower GPAs...") and the school trying to maintain some sort of "any student from this school is good enough for any firm" image. It's actually just fucking true. Firms are mostly not as GPA-obsessed as we were led to believe.

[prezidentv8]

certain naval officers

NICE.

[Anonymous User]

My advice:

Bid with some geographic breadth, and always in many major markets.

Even if you don't want to be there long term, a summer elsewhere + money beats no money.

[Blindmelon]

This combined with the "GPA is honestly not that determinative at many firms; your interviewing style matters a lot" advice is like a fucking five point exploding heart technique for OCI.

I had heard something like that from career counselors, but I (I think justifiably) interpreted it as a combination of trying to spread some mostly baseless hope (like, "Oh, Harvard sometimes takes people with lower GPAs...") and the school trying to maintain some sort of "any student from this school is good enough for any firm" image. It's actually just fucking true. Firms are mostly not as GPA-obsessed as we were led to believe.

This. My ignorance as to the OCI process actually helped me get a job. I bid on mostly firms out of my range and got an offer at a firm traditionally way out of my league for my GPA. TLS often searches too much for a formula for hiring.

[Anonymous User]

One mistake people make is correlating grade consciousness with the Vault rankings.

Outside the V10 and the super-selective boutiques (Munger, Irell, Susman, Boies, etc,) a V20 may be less grade conscious than a V40. At some firms, good WE/presentation may vault a 3.2 over a 3.4. And I know of some non-Vault firms outside of NYC more grade conscious than NYC firms because they just had fewer spots. And for some firms, grades still might be the best way to sort through 60 screeners.

Finding out which firms have hard cutoffs and which don't is something in OCS should do, IMO.

[Anonymous User]

One mistake people make is correlating grade consciousness with the Vault rankings.

Outside the V10 and the super-selective boutiques (Munger, Irell, Susman, Boies, etc,) a V20 may be less grade conscious than a V40. At some firms, good WE/presentation may vault a 3.2 over a 3.4. And I know of some non-Vault firms outside of NYC more grade conscious than NYC firms because they just had fewer spots. And for some firms, grades still might be the best way to sort through 60 screeners.

I have long really questioned the use of the Vault list as an analogue to USNWR. "Oooh, he got into a V50!" I guess the Vault list is based in part on (rather NY-slanted) prestige scores, but all in all I think I stick with my first reaction to learning such a list was used: "this is fucking insane. These people are just obsessed with rankings." Chambers sounds a little more rational.

Finding out which firms have hard cutoffs and which don't is something in OCS should do, IMO.

QF fucking T.

[Blindmelon]

quote="Anonymous User"]One mistake people make is correlating grade consciousness with the Vault rankings.

I have long really questioned the use of the Vault list as an analogue to USNWR. "Oooh, he got into a V50!" I guess the Vault list is based in part on (rather NY-slanted) prestige scores, but all in all I think I stick with my first reaction to learning such a list was used: "this is fucking insane. These people are just obsessed with rankings." Chambers sounds a little more rational.

[/quote]

Vault rankings are just easy to use. They're not perfect by any means whatsoever. E.x. Ropes >>> Skadden in Boston but Skadden is V5 and Ropes is V25. So the V25er there is at a more prestigious firm than the V25er. Same with someone saying they work for Ropes in DC (V25) versus somewhere like Steptoe (V100). In that case V25 < V100.

In essence, Vault means diddly.

[Grizz]

Thanks for this thread yall. It has been duly bookmarked and I've been lurking hard.

[SpiteFence]

quote="Anonymous User"]One mistake people make is correlating grade consciousness with the Vault rankings.

I have long really questioned the use of the Vault list as an analogue to USNWR. "Oooh, he got into a V50!" I guess the Vault list is based in part on (rather NY-slanted) prestige scores, but all in all I think I stick with my first reaction to learning such a list was used: "this is fucking insane. These people are just obsessed with rankings." Chambers sounds a little more rational.

Vault rankings are just easy to use. They're not perfect by any means whatsoever. E.x. Ropes >>> Skadden in Boston but Skadden is V5 and Ropes is V25. So the V25er there is at a more prestigious firm than the V25er. Same with someone saying they work for Ropes in DC (V25) versus somewhere like Steptoe (V100). In that case V25 < V100.

In essence, Vault means diddly.[/quote]

Not only is it a bad way of sorting through the firms that made the list, but it distracts us from value of boutiques or large single market firms. On the other hand, I found the Vault guides very helpful.

[Anonymous User]

Generally, the smart move if you have no transactional experience is to say you're primarily interested in litigation but want to do some transactional work in the summer to see if you like it. If your interviewer is a transactional attorney, be sure to throw in some complaints about how law school is so heavily geared toward litigators (and, often, appellate litigators) so you're disappointed you don't know what transactional work is all about yet. They eat that up.

TITCR for the corp/lit question, which you will get. If it's a firm that's strong in both, use that to your advantage, too. I told people at the top firms, "I've enjoyed doing lit so far, but I haven't gotten to do any real corporate work yet, and I like the fact that if I go to your firm I can try both and get into a top-notch practice either way."

Do not do this with Cravath, for obvious reasons.

[RVP11]

Do not do this with Cravath, for obvious reasons.

Do you not get to try both lit and corp in Cravath's summer program?

[Anonymous User]

Do not do this with Cravath, for obvious reasons.

Do you not get to try both lit and corp in Cravath's summer program?

No, you can rotate through different assignments within the Corporate or Litigation group, but you're assigned to one or the other. In fact, failure to commit to one during the initial interview is apparently a good way to get dinged. I learned this the hard way.

[Anonymous User]

Do not do this with Cravath, for obvious reasons.

Do you not get to try both lit and corp in Cravath's summer program?

No, you can rotate through different assignments within the Corporate or Litigation group, but you're assigned to one or the other. In fact, failure to commit to one during the initial interview is apparently a good way to get dinged. I learned this the hard way.

After I got a callback I tried to cancel it(after getting another offer) saying that I wanted to try both. They told me I could interview w both groups and I got an offer to split. This happened to at least 2 other people I've heard of. So while you probably don't want to bring it up during the screening interview it IS possible to do both if they want you.

[Anonymous User]

The ones who generally don't are W&C, Munger, Irell, CSM, S&C, Cleary, Gibson, K&E. I hear conflicting stories about DPW.

Maybe there's a different story for CCN. At my school, DPW, Cleary, and K&E routinely call back people who are even below median (though not too far below). Gibson goes pretty low depending on the office--NYC isn't particularly selective. Irell wants top 20% or so, but will go for far lower if you have the relevant IP background. CSM, prior to the economic crisis, hired anyone with a pulse from CCN. Probably changed last year because of the 20 or so SA class they ended up having, but given that they're going back up to 70, I'd imagine that selectivity has lessened somewhat.


But yes, W&C, Munger, S&C, WLRK, and a few others, tend to cling very closely to their grade preferences. For better or worse.

Coincidentally, those are also four firms that are dealing with the financial crisis quite handily. Makes you wonder.

I know for a fact that at my CCN DPW hired at/below median.

[Anonymous User]

There is a ton of good advice on this thread. I'm at a T14 and struck out at OCI, at least in part because I did everything wrong in the book. I bid on regional offices that were taking maybe a couple of summers, bid on firms that were struggling financially and had small class sizes, wasn't prepared enough for interviews, and didn't know what I wanted to end up doing.


In contrast, I have friends at my school with significantly worse grades than me and did well at OCI and ended up employed, despite being around the bottom third of the class. They bid wisely, bidding on only New York firms with large summer classes, including bidding pretty much everywhere but WLRK, CSM, and SullCrom. Both of them ended up with V15 callbacks (although they didnt' get offers). Still, it's much easier for "personality" to matter when the firm you're interviewing with is hiring 60 summers, rather than 5. While they were getting a chance to sell themselves to people who would be their future colleagues, I was trying to convince NYC partners to hire me for an office they may not even have been aware their firm had.


Also, they had an idea of what they wanted to do. For example, one friend came into interviews telling every firm, I want to do bankruptcy, I worked for a bankruptcy judge this summer, I'm taking these bankruptcy/ restructuring oriented classes over the coming semesters, etc. He did way better than you would expect from his gpa, and I think this has a lot to do with it. It's one thing if you finished top 25% in your class and say I'm not sure I know what I want to do, but it's another if your grades aren't good. Iffy grades show that you may have been overwhelmed by your first year of law school, but showing up knowing what you're talking about and showing that you know what you're getting yourself into can go along way towards alleviating concerns that you'll be in over your head as a 1st year associate and quit 18 months into the job.


Basically, I'm completely boned because I came in unprepared and made a ton of mistakes (plus the whole not dominating 1L exams). Now, I'll have this sweet T14 degree that's not worth the paper it's printed on because I couldn't get an internship 1/3 through my law school career. Crazy how little time it takes to get your dreams crushed

[Anonymous User]

One mistake people make is correlating grade consciousness with the Vault rankings.

I have long really questioned the use of the Vault list as an analogue to USNWR. "Oooh, he got into a V50!" I guess the Vault list is based in part on (rather NY-slanted) prestige scores, but all in all I think I stick with my first reaction to learning such a list was used: "this is fucking insane. These people are just obsessed with rankings." Chambers sounds a little more rational.

Vault rankings are just easy to use. They're not perfect by any means whatsoever. E.x. Ropes >>> Skadden in Boston but Skadden is V5 and Ropes is V25. So the V25er there is at a more prestigious firm than the V25er. Same with someone saying they work for Ropes in DC (V25) versus somewhere like Steptoe (V100). In that case V25 < V100.

In essence, Vault means diddly.

Not only is it a bad way of sorting through the firms that made the list, but it distracts us from value of boutiques or large single market firms. On the other hand, I found the Vault guides very helpful.

Large single market firms, especially those based in secondary markets, get screwed by Vault.

Strong regional firms that are best-in-the-market like Stoel Rives, Snell & Wilmer, and Holland & Hart are not ranked at all, yet firms that are basically TTTs in every market they're in, like dla piper and Howrey, are consistently Vault-ranked, with dla piper often in the V50. The strong regionals are more selective in their hiring and objectively better firms to work for.

[Anonymous User]

Basically, I'm completely boned because I came in unprepared and made a ton of mistakes (plus the whole not dominating 1L exams). Now, I'll have this sweet T14 degree that's not worth the paper it's printed on because I couldn't get an internship 1/3 through my law school career. Crazy how little time it takes to get your dreams crushed

I'm more or less in your shoes. However, I would encourage you not to give up, not even this late in the game. Grab UG alumni, hunt down regional firms, do whatever it takes. I am getting nibbles at firms paying, if not market, at least in the respectable $1XX,000 range. There may (will) come a day when it is truly futile, but it is not this day! (/aragorn) I know the feeling that your degree is dissolving into pulp before your eyes, but your T14 aura should not be underestimated. One of its advantages is that you can convince firms to make exceptions or give you a shot when others would be shut out.

[Anonymous User]

There is a ton of good advice on this thread. I'm at a T14 and struck out at OCI, at least in part because I did everything wrong in the book. I bid on regional offices that were taking maybe a couple of summers, bid on firms that were struggling financially and had small class sizes, wasn't prepared enough for interviews, and didn't know what I wanted to end up doing.


In contrast, I have friends at my school with significantly worse grades than me and did well at OCI and ended up employed, despite being around the bottom third of the class. They bid wisely, bidding on only New York firms with large summer classes, including bidding pretty much everywhere but WLRK, CSM, and SullCrom. Both of them ended up with V15 callbacks (although they didnt' get offers). Still, it's much easier for "personality" to matter when the firm you're interviewing with is hiring 60 summers, rather than 5. While they were getting a chance to sell themselves to people who would be their future colleagues, I was trying to convince NYC partners to hire me for an office they may not even have been aware their firm had.


Also, they had an idea of what they wanted to do. For example, one friend came into interviews telling every firm, I want to do bankruptcy, I worked for a bankruptcy judge this summer, I'm taking these bankruptcy/ restructuring oriented classes over the coming semesters, etc. He did way better than you would expect from his gpa, and I think this has a lot to do with it. It's one thing if you finished top 25% in your class and say I'm not sure I know what I want to do, but it's another if your grades aren't good. Iffy grades show that you may have been overwhelmed by your first year of law school, but showing up knowing what you're talking about and showing that you know what you're getting yourself into can go along way towards alleviating concerns that you'll be in over your head as a 1st year associate and quit 18 months into the job.


Basically, I'm completely boned because I came in unprepared and made a ton of mistakes (plus the whole not dominating 1L exams). Now, I'll have this sweet T14 degree that's not worth the paper it's printed on because I couldn't get an internship 1/3 through my law school career. Crazy how little time it takes to get your dreams crushed

This is pretty much how I feel. Can't believe I missed the train because I bid poorly.

[Anonymous User]

Be wary of underbidding as well as overbidding. I'm slightly below median at Penn and got callbacks into the v15.

IP? URM?

Dude, a lot of the firms in the V15 will call back down to MVP's medianish if you can rock the interviews. Notably, STB, Skadden, and Weil aren't super anally selective on grades. Debevoise and Paul Weiss used to go down almost as far and still probably do occasionally. WilmerHale (V16?) is another one.

The ones who generally don't are W&C, Munger, Irell, CSM, S&C, Cleary, Gibson, K&E. I hear conflicting stories about DPW.

Actually, below-median at CCN and received offers from several of the V-15's you mentioned as "generally grade-selective." I'm not IP, URM, or anything that would qualify me as "diverse." My advice to those with lower grades is to throw in a few good reaches and turn up the personality.

[SpiteFence]

I'll also add this: in order to bid successfully at OCI, you do have to understand the specifics on how the Simplicity bidding system works. Its not overly complicated, but I have yet to see a comprehensive guide.

[bmontminy]

Does the 'bit NY' advice hold if you are from UT and aiming at Austin/Dallas/Houston? I've heard the TX markets are doing (relatively) well, but wondering if come bidding next year i would be wise to pad it with NY as well.

[Anonymous User]

Does the 'bit NY' advice hold if you are from UT and aiming at Austin/Dallas/Houston? I've heard the TX markets are doing (relatively) well, but wondering if come bidding next year i would be wise to pad it with NY as well.

If you go to law school at UT, definitely bid on TX! If not, depends on your grades.

[dood]

...

[Anonymous User]

this is what i told everyone pre 2010 OCI; everyone made fun of my spreadsheet, now i can say "told ya so"

Where did you get the data on which firms were popular? Purely Vault-based?