Striking out at OCI- a frank discussion Forum

[yellowjacket2012]

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[rynabrius]

On the bright side, they no longer send you to debtor's prison.

[OperaSoprano]

Please, there is no call to be judging anyone else. I borrowed, and I will be using IBR whether or not I go into PI. If I start at 40 or 50k, as I expect to do, repayment will take more than ten years in a non LRAP qualifying job. Still, this was what I wanted. Law school has intrinsic value for me, and I see this as more than an investment toward getting a job. That said, debt is not enjoyable, and it's perfectly human to worry about it! In my case, it was a price worth paying, and no regrets. Just figuring out where to go from here!

[rayiner]

I have to get behind what yellowjacket is saying. You can't throw in the towel on your legal career because you struck out at OCI. If you've got that mindset, you'll never succeed at anything.

The problem with law school is that there are tons of people with this mindset. They grew up in middle/upper-middle class families, and are attracted to law school because it seems low risk. They go through the motions, do all the things they're "supposed" to do, and expect to be rewarded with a middle/upper-middle class lifestyle just like their parents enjoyed.

This was never the right way to live life, even if it did happen to work out for the last decade or so due to the bubble economy.

You have to look at the big picture. The job market might be bad now, but there is an impending labor shortage of unprecedented proportions. When the baby boomers start retiring in the next decade, there will be a huge vacuum that needs to be filled. Armchair market analysts can crow all they want about "the legal market being changed forever!" but as yellowjacket points out all of these people are full of shit. Shit can't stand up to cold, hard demographic facts.

The people who will do well in the post-boomer job market are not the ones who believe in well-defined tracks and doing what they are "supposed to do". They are the ones who aggressively chase opportunities wherever they can find them. They're the ones who try to develop skills that set them apart from the masses and then pitch those skills every opportunity they get.

At the very least, IBR gives you a 25-year shot clock during which to make something of yourself. Take the opportunity, because let's face it -- what the hell else are you qualified to do?

[prezidentv8]

Shit can't stand up to cold, hard demographic facts.

QFT

[2009 Prospective]

How about renaming this thread to "Dennis Reynolds- an Erotic Life"

[wiseowl]

Tell that to someone I know who got a V5 after getting nothing out of 2L OCI.

Blanket generalizations for the win. Is it unlikely? Yeah. But stop running your trap as if it is the god's honest truth.

Oh, and the guy was not top 1%, or law review (or a secondary for that matter). Seriously, you're stupid.

Rfit to clarify that I am not any of the anonymous people.

Not sure this singular anecdote justifies the vitriol here.

I am also am none of the above anonymi

[Anonymous User]

God this is so naive. See my last post... It's rough out there.

Yeah, and I made it sound so easy too with my "hope against hope" phrasing

The point is that if you didn't get something out of 2L OCI, you won't get something out of 3L OCI (no matter what). There are just too few spots open to 3Ls at large firms, and the mere fact that you didn't work at a large firm as a 2L (and hence, did not get an offer from a large firm at the end of your 2L summer) is a HUGE red mark on your application. When you're up against top 1% CCN, executive board of law review, and got an offer from a large firm type people, you really can't compete with that as a 3L that just wasn't good enough to get an offer out of 2L OCI.

Tell that to someone I know who got a V5 after getting nothing out of 2L OCI.

Blanket generalizations for the win. Is it unlikely? Yeah. But stop running your trap as if it is the god's honest truth.

Oh, and the guy was not top 1%, or law review (or a secondary for that matter).

So you know ONE PERSON (and most likely at your school-- i.e. UChi, a top 6 school) that got biglaw as a 3L (who didn't get it out of 2L OCI), and now everyone that missed the 2L boat should "hope against hope" to get biglaw out of 3L OCI? GTFO.

What did this person do his second summer? What were his grades like? I suspect there is much more to this story than just some kid who had mediocre grades his 1L year, kicked ass 2L year, worked at some shitlaw firm or PI 2L summer, and then got a V5 offer.

Seriously, you're stupid.

You're a real dickhead. Just because you got LUCKY and managed to get ONE offer from a large firm very late in the cycle last year now you're hot shit now right? Give me a break, I bet your options would be a lot shittier than they are if it weren't for that ONE offer.

[Anonymous User]

and so anonymous for no apparent reason.

Back on track:

If I had no jobs for next summer, and I had to convert short-term crisis into a long-term opportunity, I would apply to an ADA/PD office even if I had zero interest in CRIMINAL prosecution/defense, but significant interest in big law litigation/trial. Partners can easily sell a junior/midlevel to a client if that junior/midlevel has legitimate trial experience. You won't see the inside of a courtroom in every singel big law firm out there for several years, even junior partners haven't ever done any trial work at most firms. Of course, AUSA is terrific but impossible without biglaw/clerkship experience, but ADA/PD is achievable right out of law school if you can sell yourself to these places. By way of example, I know several people last year who got 2L ADA jobs and they applied in the Spring term.

I had an opportunity to speak with one of the top patent litigators in the country (if you're in the patent game, yeah, he's one of those 3-5 guys) a few days ago about what he would do if he had to do it all over again, and this is exactly what he said he'd do if he didn't have options. (Go work in an ADA office, get the skills that clients won't allow young associates to get).

So do ADA/PD, get trial skills (you'll hit the ground running at 100 mph), then wait it out till the market heats up, rolodex away for 3 years, try to attend any kind of career related events in your practice area of interest, network, network, network, and try and enter into a big firm when the market is hot. Nobody on this thread really has a clue whether this is achievable or not because they're all brainwashed into thinking 2L is the only time to get a job, this is true in the near term, given the big mess that is the legal industry, but has not been historically true, and will not be true in the long-term either.

Clients want superstar partners with gray hair to do EVERYTHING, said superstar partners fail big time in persuading the client to allow a midlevel/junior partner to do something critical because they don't have trial experience. They can sell the skillsets you acquire in these 2-3 years outta law school if you go become an ADA. No guarantee, but you'll LOVE the work (probably), and its a hell of a way to build a resume for long-term litigation/trial work.

You have a chance to do something that big-law offereds don't, many of 'em are headed out to do doc review/legal research+writing for the next 2-3 years and work long hours, they'll probably end up with great legal research/writing skills, but will never take/defend a deposition in a real case (high $$). Its important to see opportunity where others see blood on the streets.

The odds of going from some County DA/PD's office to Biglaw are incredibly slim right now. There's no doubt that you would have better litigation experience at the DA/PD's office, but Biglaw really is all about prestige. There is very little prestige in that type of work. I think working at a County DA/PD's office during law school is a great experience, and you get the trial experience you wouldn't otherwise get for a really long time at a law firm. But working at one of those offices after law school isn't likely going to sell yourself to biglaw (they want prestige -- they hire the best of the best). Also, there is very little research and writing with trial level criminal law work, and excellent research and writing ability is a really important thing to law firms (i.e. you won't really be able to sell how you developed these skills at a DA/PD's office).

Don't take this the wrong way, anything is possible. A lot of people got pwned during the last recession. And I talked to a number of biglaw partners that this actually happened to who said that they were able to bounce back into biglaw after the recession. For example, a adjunct professor graduated back during the last recession, worked in insurance defense after law school (the shitiest of shitlaw), and now he is now a partner at a v10 law firm. After the dot com bust last recession these large firms were really highly in demand and they were fighting for top school grads. Salaries skyrocketed, and firms hired deeper and deeper into classes. According to the v10 partner, they were literally "handing out jobs" and it was incredibly easy to get a biglaw offer leaving my school. If that type of turn around happened again, it certainly would be possible to go from DA/PD's office to biglaw. But I'm not sure this is something I would plan on happening (analysts think that biglaw will never recover to what it was before this economy).

[OperaSoprano]

I am out with my friends, so I am just requesting that people please keep things positive in this thread.

As to the rest, I think Rayiner is right. (He usually is!) I have not been aggressive enough in talking to other corporate legal departments, due to being busy with this internship! I definitely took a nontraditional path, and opted to do things differently than my classmates have. The price I'll probably have to pay is in reduced security, but I don't need any one kind of job to be happy. I'm flexible, and I've been astonished at the degree to which people have offered advice and help. If success is measured by getting an offer, I have not achieved it, but I came here believing in more than one path to employment, and ultimately some measure of satisfaction at having lived an interesting and useful life.

Is anyone else thinking about nontraditional employment?

[nn223]

[rynabrius]

rayiner: What makes you think that the boomers currently employed in law will not be replaced by overseas workers? Currently it is mostly doc-review that is undergoing the great unbundling, but no area of firm practice is safe. The supply of labor is there, the demand for cheaper labor is there, and the cognitive capability is there.

This paper suggests that big law will be a thing of the past within our lifetimes:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1467730

I agree with your point that people who got into law school because they desired a risk free entree to an upper-middle class life made a grievous error, though.

[frost]

The odds of going from some County DA/PD's office to Biglaw are incredibly slim right now. There's no doubt that you would have better litigation experience at the DA/PD's office, but Biglaw really is all about prestige. There is very little prestige in that type of work. I think working at a County DA/PD's office during law school is a great experience, and you get the trial experience you wouldn't otherwise get for a really long time at a law firm. But working at one of those offices after law school isn't likely going to sell yourself to biglaw (they want prestige -- they hire the best of the best). Also, there is very little research and writing with trial level criminal law work, and excellent research and writing ability is a really important thing to law firms (i.e. you won't really be able to sell how you developed these skills at a DA/PD's office).

I agree with this, but it's pretty fixated on biglaw which isn't the only thing out there. I worked as a paralegal in a regional DA's Office. The attorneys that left went to great places, and it seemed pretty easy to get into mid-level firms, the AG's Office, and federal government. One of my supervisors went from DA to DOJ then back to DA (with a promotion) and he said that it's easier to go into federal government from city/local government than from law firms because they know that you have not only more experience but a sincere passion for government/PI work.

[vamedic03]

rayiner: What makes you think that the boomers currently employed in law will not be replaced by overseas workers? Currently it is mostly doc-review that is undergoing the great unbundling, but no area of firm practice is safe. The supply of labor is there, the demand for cheaper labor is there, and the cognitive capability is there.

This paper suggests that big law will be a thing of the past within our lifetimes:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1467730

I agree with your point that people who got into law school because they desired a risk free entree to an upper-middle class life made a grievous error, though.

So, a multibillion dollar industry is going to disappear?

[rynabrius]

rayiner: What makes you think that the boomers currently employed in law will not be replaced by overseas workers? Currently it is mostly doc-review that is undergoing the great unbundling, but no area of firm practice is safe. The supply of labor is there, the demand for cheaper labor is there, and the cognitive capability is there.

This paper suggests that big law will be a thing of the past within our lifetimes:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1467730

I agree with your point that people who got into law school because they desired a risk free entree to an upper-middle class life made a grievous error, though.

So, a multibillion dollar industry is going to disappear?

Big law is not the legal industry. Currently big law bundles a lot of services and dishes them out in an inefficient way that wastes clients' money. Perhaps I should have said "big law as we know it will be a thing of the past[. . .]" Ray's argument seemed to be premised on the notion that services would continue to be bundled as they have been in the past.

Maybe you should read the article I linked to. My point is that it might be deleterious to your career prospects to wait around for the time when a demographic shift leads to models and bottles for all down on their luck lawyers.

EDIT: I should highlight that the great unbundling is potentially exciting. It all depends on your stomach for risk.

[vamedic03]

rayiner: What makes you think that the boomers currently employed in law will not be replaced by overseas workers? Currently it is mostly doc-review that is undergoing the great unbundling, but no area of firm practice is safe. The supply of labor is there, the demand for cheaper labor is there, and the cognitive capability is there.

This paper suggests that big law will be a thing of the past within our lifetimes:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1467730

I agree with your point that people who got into law school because they desired a risk free entree to an upper-middle class life made a grievous error, though.

So, a multibillion dollar industry is going to disappear?

Big law is not the legal industry. Currently big law bundles a lot of services and dishes them out in an inefficient way that wastes clients' money. Perhaps I should have said "big law as we know it will be a thing of the past[. . .]" Ray's argument seemed to be premised on the notion that services would continue to be bundled as they have been in the past.

Maybe you should read the article I linked to. My point is that it might be deleterious to your career prospects to wait around for the time when a demographic shift leads to models and bottles for all down on their luck lawyers.

EDIT: I should highlight that the great unbundling is potentially exciting. It all depends on your stomach for risk.

Again, you're suggesting that a multi-billion dollar industry will disappear? [because biglaw in and of itself, is multibillion dollar industry] FWIW, I wouldn't put but so much weight in a single LR article.

[vanwinkle]

Again, you're suggesting that a multi-billion dollar industry will disappear? [because biglaw in and of itself, is multibillion dollar industry] FWIW, I wouldn't put but so much weight in a single LR article.

Even if the paper is true, "within our lifetimes" will be plenty long enough a lifespan for most to get jobs and pay off our debts if we're smart about it.

[rynabrius]

Again, you're suggesting that a multi-billion dollar industry will disappear? [because biglaw in and of itself, is multibillion dollar industry]

No.

FWIW, I wouldn't put but so much weight in a single LR article.

Okay.

Even if the paper is true, "within our lifetimes" will be plenty long enough a lifespan for most to get jobs and pay off our debts if we're smart about it.

Agreed. The overarching point I was trying to make is that waiting around for external factors to change might be dangerous at this juncture. Motivation is important, and pessimism can help with motivation as surely as it can sap it.

[bwv812]

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[worldtraveler]

I haven't seen anybody mention anything like DOJ honors, JAG corps, or other government positions yet. There are other options besides big law, even if the pay is not fantastic.

[Anonymous User]

im fucked.... i have only 1 callback mid/small law from wustl/emory/ND......
my parents dont seem to understand that if you strike out your 2l year you are as fucked for life in terms of biglaw. They assume it s like college where people would actually hire seniors.......

[Anonymous User]

i really dont understand..
If im having problems finding A JOB/SA position from a t50 10%.....
where do the other 10k grads go after they graduate from law school jobless?

[rayiner]

You're a grown-ass man/woman. Who gives a fuck what your parents think?

[vanwinkle]

I haven't seen anybody mention anything like DOJ honors, JAG corps, or other government positions yet. There are other options besides big law, even if the pay is not fantastic.

Those positions are honestly very difficult to get; however, there are lots of other, less prestigious public interest jobs out there for people who genuinely want them.

[bwv812]

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