rough relation with partner at 1L SA firm Forum

[cavebat2000]

If shes not at her desk then her annoying boss can call her. That's why cell phones exist. She doesn't need to leave a post-it note trail everywhere. Also, bitterness about not getting a lunch break is your own problem, not hers. Good bosses allow their employees to be humans.

Dumb dumb dumb.

Thanks for your intelligent response.

[paratactical]

.

[CG614]

Anyone call flame based on OP even having an 1L SA?

I think that thinking 20 minute breaks are okay is more of a reason to call troll.

Side Note: When will people on TLS realize the difference between trolls and flames?

Virgin?

[Anonymous User]

1) At both my SA gigs (major market biglaw) if I went to grab a cup of coffee and bring it back I didn't inform anyone. But I always checked my Blackberry. There are so many summer associate type things that it's damn near impossible to keep everyone informed where you are at all the time. For example, Partner X says come down to my office and let's go over something -- are you supposed to tell everyone? There were days where I spent almost no time in the office. Also, wtf are you taking "breaks" for? Unless you are getting food / coffee you should be doing something work related. Enjoy 45% efficiency and working 80 hours weeks to make your billables should you survive this summer. Also ENJOY dla piper.

2) Secs are shared by four attys at most firms. If I had to tell my sec every time I went out I would have been shanked.

3) The key is to make sure you're a) putting in the hours and b) having reasonable responses if someone says "I dropped by and you were out" and c) CHECK YOU BLACKBERRY. At my firms partners and associates would first call your office and if you weren't there hit up your blackberry. If you don't have blackberrys at your firm, these rules probably change a lot.

4) Meeting BF for lunch briefly OUTSIDE the firm once or twice a summer = AOK. Inside the firm or more often/longer = CERTAIN DEATH.

5) Don't be stupid. If you are working on something time sensitive, let the attorney you are working for know that you're going to be out between X and Y and that you'll check in immediately when you are back.

6) I think that these are just the symptoms of a larger problem. Partners don't call you out for 20 minute breaks on their own. Partners start to call you out for being out of the office when they think you are a slack-ass chump who isn't doing good work or is being lazy.

[cavebat2000]

cavebat - Are you hoping to work in Biglaw and, more importantly, are you planning to use it to pay off loans? If so, you may need to reevaluate your expectations.

No I am not, especially if that is traditionally how big-law treats their employees. That being said:

1) At least one other poster on this thread indicated that is not the way their law firm treats them,
2) Even if it is the way many law firms treat their employees, I really doubt it is necessary and is probably counter-productive (maybe why so many people leave these firms after 1-3 years of what one Yale Law grad described to me as "soul deadening" work. He went on to advise Peter Orzag and loved it, btw.)
3) I do not expect biglaw to be different. My statement was general and more of a condenmation of such practices. It was a normative statement rather than descriptive one.
4) Thank you Para for not acting like the arrogant asshole that some others do on these boards.

[entrechatsix]

Stop watching 'The Hills.' It's not real life.

hahaha this is exactly what i thought... "LC is working at a law firm?!!?"

[paratactical]

.

[dresden doll]

Am I alone in thinking that the boss is displaying no particular toughness for calling OP out for 1) disappearing for 20 minute breaks and 2) lunching with BF at the office? I've worked for a bank before LS and neither of the two types of conduct would have been acceptable there either.

I don't understand how partner at hand is being rough, and that's coming from someone that is by no means into being bullied/treated inhumanely.

[cavebat2000]

1) At both my SA gigs (major market biglaw) if I went to grab a cup of coffee and bring it back I didn't inform anyone. But I always checked my Blackberry. There are so many summer associate type things that it's damn near impossible to keep everyone informed where you are at all the time. For example, Partner X says come down to my office and let's go over something -- are you supposed to tell everyone? There were days where I spent almost no time in the office. Also, wtf are you taking "breaks" for? Unless you are getting food / coffee you should be doing something work related. Enjoy 45% efficiency and working 80 hours weeks to make your billables should you survive this summer. Also ENJOY DLA PIPER.

2) Secs are shared by four attys at most firms. If I had to tell my sec every time I went out I would have been shanked.

3) The key is to make sure you're a) putting in the hours and b) having reasonable responses if someone says "I dropped by and you were out" and c) CHECK YOU BLACKBERRY. At my firms partners and associates would first call your office and if you weren't there hit up your blackberry. If you don't have blackberrys at your firm, these rules probably change a lot.

4) Meeting BF for lunch briefly OUTSIDE the firm once or twice a summer = AOK. Inside the firm or more often/longer = CERTAIN DEATH.

5) Don't be stupid. If you are working on something time sensitive, let the attorney you are working for know that you're going to be out between X and Y and that you'll check in immediately when you are back.

6) I think that these are just the symptoms of a larger problem. Partners don't call you out for 20 minute breaks on their own. Partners start to call you out for being out of the office when they think you are a slack-ass chump who isn't doing good work or is being lazy.

Excellent post. Thank you for sharing your experience. I think it helps others to see how their one or two bad experiences aren't indicative of how everyone else'sn experience will be.

[cavebat2000]

cavebat - Are you hoping to work in Biglaw and, more importantly, are you planning to use it to pay off loans? If so, you may need to reevaluate your expectations.

No I am not, especially if that is traditionally how big-law treats their employees. That being said:

1) At least one other poster on this thread indicated that is not the way their law firm treats them,
2) Even if it is the way many law firms treat their employees, I really doubt it is necessary and is probably counter-productive (maybe why so many people leave these firms after 1-3 years of what one Yale Law grad described to me as "soul deadening" work. He went on to advise Peter Orzag and loved it, btw.)
3) I do not expect biglaw to be different. My statement was general and more of a condenmation of such practices. It was a normative statement rather than descriptive one.
4) Thank you Para for not acting like the arrogant asshole that some others do on these boards.

For the record, this below bit is pretty damn accurate:

6) I think that these are just the symptoms of a larger problem. Partners don't call you out for 20 minute breaks on their own. Partners start to call you out for being out of the office when they think you are a slack-ass chump who isn't doing good work or is being lazy.

Basically, billables are important, meeting them is important and partners expect you to be available. I've worked on cases where a second year associate was forced to move her wedding under 2 months before the wedding was scheduled to happen. It's the reality of the job. Are you entitled to breaks and lunch breaks and so forth? Sure, but the brief is due at 5pm and that deadline doesn't care about your lunch and it's more important that anything else.

This makes much more sense to me.

[bk1]

Virgin?

Nah, I already auctioned it off on Australian TV.

[let/them/eat/cake]

If shes not at her desk then her annoying boss can call her. That's why cell phones exist. She doesn't need to leave a post-it note trail everywhere. Also, bitterness about not getting a lunch break is your own problem, not hers. Good bosses allow their employees to be humans.

Summer associate = billable hours. 20 minute breaks that are frequent enough that a partner notices = potentially billable time you aren't billing for = missing profit goals or lying about your billables.

You cannot work biglaw if you expect these kinds of breaks and no partner is going to call to get a hold of a summer associate. Partners are important. You do not waste their time. You, as a summer associate and associate, are not important and need to be available.

First let me say I agree with pretty much all that has been said in this thread w/r/t what sounds like general indolence and a complete lack of perception.

that being said, w/r/t the underlined above, i seem to remember the summer associates where i worked (a) being pretty useless, at least for the first 4-6 weeks, and (b) having most of their time written off by partners. i.e., their 'billables' are basically nonexistent bc they rarely get to the client. perhaps that was a function of the economy (i'm speaking summer '08 and '09), but still.

anyway, OP, quit making out behind the azaleas in the caf and get back to work. silly goose.

[Anonymous User]

1) At both my SA gigs (major market biglaw) if I went to grab a cup of coffee and bring it back I didn't inform anyone. But I always checked my Blackberry. There are so many summer associate type things that it's damn near impossible to keep everyone informed where you are at all the time. For example, Partner X says come down to my office and let's go over something -- are you supposed to tell everyone? There were days where I spent almost no time in the office. Also, wtf are you taking "breaks" for? Unless you are getting food / coffee you should be doing something work related. Enjoy 45% efficiency and working 80 hours weeks to make your billables should you survive this summer. Also ENJOY DLA PIPER.

2) Secs are shared by four attys at most firms. If I had to tell my sec every time I went out I would have been shanked.

3) The key is to make sure you're a) putting in the hours and b) having reasonable responses if someone says "I dropped by and you were out" and c) CHECK YOU BLACKBERRY. At my firms partners and associates would first call your office and if you weren't there hit up your blackberry. If you don't have blackberrys at your firm, these rules probably change a lot.

4) Meeting BF for lunch briefly OUTSIDE the firm once or twice a summer = AOK. Inside the firm or more often/longer = CERTAIN DEATH.

5) Don't be stupid. If you are working on something time sensitive, let the attorney you are working for know that you're going to be out between X and Y and that you'll check in immediately when you are back.

6) I think that these are just the symptoms of a larger problem. Partners don't call you out for 20 minute breaks on their own. Partners start to call you out for being out of the office when they think you are a slack-ass chump who isn't doing good work or is being lazy.

I'm the other non-OP anon SA who posted earlier, and this post jibes much more with my experience than many of the later posts ITT. SA's aren't expected to bill a ton of hours at my firm (25 - 40/wk, depending on whats going on), or to maintain a 2 minute, or even 10 minute, response time. Nobody cares if I leave my desk throughout the day as long as I do good work, and do it on time, and my total hours are in reasonable range. Spending lunch working is a rare exception. I'm not in a major market though.

[12262010]

Am I alone in thinking that the boss is displaying no particular toughness for calling OP out for 1) disappearing for 20 minute breaks and 2) lunching with BF at the office? I've worked for a bank before LS and neither of the two types of conduct would have been acceptable there either.

I don't understand how partner at hand is being rough, and that's coming from someone that is by no means into being bullied/treated inhumanely.

no, I think almost everyone agrees with you.

[dresden doll]

Am I alone in thinking that the boss is displaying no particular toughness for calling OP out for 1) disappearing for 20 minute breaks and 2) lunching with BF at the office? I've worked for a bank before LS and neither of the two types of conduct would have been acceptable there either.

I don't understand how partner at hand is being rough, and that's coming from someone that is by no means into being bullied/treated inhumanely.

no, I think almost everyone agrees with you.

I was just noticing - perhaps erroneously - that lots of posters kinda prefaced their arguments with 'it's a law firm you're working for, get a grip.' My take is more like 'it's an employment we're talking about, get a grip.'

OP wouldn't have to work for a big law firm in order to find that boss doesn't consider her conduct acceptable. Lots of other, arguably more laid back, positions require equal level of professionalism.

[12262010]

Am I alone in thinking that the boss is displaying no particular toughness for calling OP out for 1) disappearing for 20 minute breaks and 2) lunching with BF at the office? I've worked for a bank before LS and neither of the two types of conduct would have been acceptable there either.

I don't understand how partner at hand is being rough, and that's coming from someone that is by no means into being bullied/treated inhumanely.

no, I think almost everyone agrees with you.

I was just noticing - perhaps erroneously - that lots of posters kinda prefaced their arguments with 'it's a law firm you're working for, get a grip.' My take is more like 'it's an employment we're talking about, get a grip.'

OP wouldn't have to work for a big law firm in order to find that boss doesn't consider her conduct acceptable. Lots of other, arguably more laid back, positions require equal level of professionalism.

agreed. boyfriend at work is completely inappropriate. and I don't understand what's so difficult about telling your boss where you're going.

[romothesavior]

Am I alone in thinking that the boss is displaying no particular toughness for calling OP out for 1) disappearing for 20 minute breaks and 2) lunching with BF at the office? I've worked for a bank before LS and neither of the two types of conduct would have been acceptable there either.

I don't understand how partner at hand is being rough, and that's coming from someone that is by no means into being bullied/treated inhumanely.

no, I think almost everyone agrees with you.

I was just noticing - perhaps erroneously - that lots of posters kinda prefaced their arguments with 'it's a law firm you're working for, get a grip.' My take is more like 'it's an employment we're talking about, get a grip.'

OP wouldn't have to work for a big law firm in order to find that boss doesn't consider her conduct acceptable. Lots of other, arguably more laid back, positions require equal level of professionalism.

I'd be inclined to agree with this as well. A quick 5-10 minute break doesn't seem like a big deal, but leaving for 20+ minutes and bring your boyfriend to the office seems like a definite no-no at any job.




Also this:

6) I think that these are just the symptoms of a larger problem. Partners don't call you out for 20 minute breaks on their own. Partners start to call you out for being out of the office when they think you are a slack-ass chump who isn't doing good work or is being lazy.

[dresden doll]

I was just noticing - perhaps erroneously - that lots of posters kinda prefaced their arguments with 'it's a law firm you're working for, get a grip.' My take is more like 'it's an employment we're talking about, get a grip.'

OP wouldn't have to work for a big law firm in order to find that boss doesn't consider her conduct acceptable. Lots of other, arguably more laid back, positions require equal level of professionalism.

agreed. boyfriend at work is completely inappropriate. and I don't understand what's so difficult about telling your boss where you're going.

Completely agreed on both counts. As I'd said, I worked for a bank before going to LS and I'm pretty certain my manager would have had none of such conduct.

I check in with my boss before I go somewhere although he never said I need to just because it's a matter of courtesy to do so. And as for BF, I don't see what's so hard about meeting him outside the office for a quick bite at a nearby restaurant. There's no necessity for him to come in. At all.

[Anonymous User]

Summer associate = billable hours. 20 minute breaks that are frequent enough that a partner notices = potentially billable time you aren't billing for = missing profit goals or lying about your billables.

You cannot work biglaw if you expect these kinds of breaks and no partner is going to call to get a hold of a summer associate. Partners are important. You do not waste their time. You, as a summer associate and associate, are not important and need to be available.

First let me say I agree with pretty much all that has been said in this thread w/r/t what sounds like general indolence and a complete lack of perception.

that being said, w/r/t the underlined above, i seem to remember the summer associates where i worked (a) being pretty useless, at least for the first 4-6 weeks, and (b) having most of their time written off by partners. i.e., their 'billables' are basically nonexistent bc they rarely get to the client. perhaps that was a function of the economy (i'm speaking summer '08 and '09), but still.

anyway, OP, quit making out behind the azaleas in the caf and get back to work. silly goose.

I think you have a point re: SA time being written off (posting anonymously to confirm this, actually -- I work at a V10, in a position where I am able to confirm that lots of SA time is written off, both because it's crappy work or takes too long, and because many clients now outright refuse to pay for summers). It's probably more tied into anonassociate's point #6 about there being a larger problem. SA time is written off en masse because you don't have experience, and OP, you're supposed to be gaining that experience while you summer at a firm. Partners know you're going to be unskilled to begin with, but if you make it clear that you're not busting your ass to gain competence, you're giving the impression that you will remain worthless to clients and therefore the firm. Why would they want to invite you back or give you a positive reference? He might not be doing it in the gentlest way possible, but this partner is doing you a favor by calling you out on these things so you have a chance to fix them. I believe it's pretty common for everyone at a firm to be nice to you right up to the moment they kick your ass to the curb.

[dresden doll]

I believe it's pretty common for everyone at a firm to be nice to you right up to the moment they kick your ass to the curb.

This has been my impression as well.

[Anonymous User]

ITT: Lots of future fat, pale, and pasty associates who are afraid to get out of their desk chairs for more than 15 seconds. It is possible (yes, in corporate America) to go outside for a 5 or 10 minute break, or occasionally go out for lunch. There's a difference between that and disappearing for 2 hours with your phone off during the middle of the day.

edit: posted anonymously by accident, feel free to remove the anonymity.

[doyleoil]

ITT: Lots of future fat, pale, and pasty associates who are afraid to get out of their desk chairs for more than 15 seconds.

edit: posted anonymously by accident.

i plan to install a tanning lamp over my desk chair to remedy the last two. tan fat is better than pale fat. ftw.

[HBK]

Regarding lunch with boyfriends/girlfriends:

If they're going to wait for you in the parking lot, tell them to blare their stupid music as loud as possible with the windows down. Everyone loves when people do that.

And they should never come inside or even get out of their cars if they aren't wearing something decent.

[blsingindisguise]

cavebat - Are you hoping to work in Biglaw and, more importantly, are you planning to use it to pay off loans? If so, you may need to reevaluate your expectations.

No I am not, especially if that is traditionally how big-law treats their employees. That being said:

1) At least one other poster on this thread indicated that is not the way their law firm treats them,
2) Even if it is the way many law firms treat their employees, I really doubt it is necessary and is probably counter-productive (maybe why so many people leave these firms after 1-3 years of what one Yale Law grad described to me as "soul deadening" work. He went on to advise Peter Orzag and loved it, btw.)
3) I do not expect biglaw to be different. My statement was general and more of a condenmation of such practices. It was a normative statement rather than descriptive one.
4) Thank you Para for not acting like the arrogant asshole that some others do on these boards.[/quote

Neither your condemnations of certain practices nor your beliefs about what is normal are relevant to what constitutes proper professional behavior in a particular office, which is ultimately dictated by your boss and not by some idealized set of guidelines. If your boss is too rigid for you you are free to quit.

[wiseowl]

Good to see the usual suspects are here to just spout downright mean shit.

I don't know what's happened to this site the last few weeks....maybe people have finally seen the writing on the wall that LS was a shit idea for them?

But the Forum for Law Students and Legal Employment forums have turned into XO. People, if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all or at least be civil.