Consulting - the end of a legal career? Forum

[Blindmelon]

Edit: In other words, this isn't a backstop incase you miss the biglaw train. If anything, getting a good consulting gig is probably harder than getting biglaw.

Just to add to this, the liklihood of getting into management consulting with from law school is incredibly low. I heard the other year McKinsey hired something like 5-10 JDs total (mostly from Harvard, and a couple from Columbia). My understanding is that they, like most business recruiters, don't care much about grades at all (but they do care that you went to a TOP school). My guess is that they, like most b-student recruiters, look at things like extracurriculars, prior work experience, etc. (essentially that you somehow have proven yourself in a leadership position), and how you answer the interview questions (I would imagine you aren't going to get the typical biglaw BS questions, such as "tell me about yourself," "why law school," and "what has been your favorite class"). In other words, the typical liberal arts major law student who has zero work experience, took zero leadership positions in extracirriculars, and is a "bad interviewer" with biglaw questions, is not going to be able to get into management consulting.

I don't think the 5-10 number is accurate. I know of a couple (and there may be more) uchicago law students who obtained Mckinsey spots last year. They also have several active recruiting events for JD/MD/PhD students per year. It seems like a lot of effort if they are only snatching up around ten per year. The truth is no one knows how many JD/PhD/ MBAs Mckinsey hires because they don't publish this data.

True, but going to law school with the goal of working for one company that happens to be super-selective is pretty stupid. Theres a lot of management consulting firms out there that are already swimming with applications from Harv/Penn/Stanford MBAs, so in order to get a management consulting job realistically, you need to cast a wide net. Unfortunately, most of the firms don't recruit JDs at all or its seen as inferior to an MBA (seriously, 99% of law work relates 0 to consulting).

My old firm was 4,000+ total people word-wide (included a lot of non-consultants). While applying to law school I ran a company education search and there were very, very few JDs. 1 Fordham who got industry specific experience working internal opps for an airline company before working at the firm, 1 UBM who was an admin assistant, and like 2 Harvard JDs who had joint MBAs.

Better idea for McKinsey, Bain, etc. is to work for a while and get industry specific experience then get a prestigious MBA. JD is too expensive and won't open the doors you need to. Sure, a handful of people do work at these places with JDs, but its the exception, not the norm. Not a good gamble IMO.

[XxSpyKEx]

Edit: In other words, this isn't a backstop incase you miss the biglaw train. If anything, getting a good consulting gig is probably harder than getting biglaw.

Just to add to this, the liklihood of getting into management consulting with from law school is incredibly low. I heard the other year McKinsey hired something like 5-10 JDs total (mostly from Harvard, and a couple from Columbia). My understanding is that they, like most business recruiters, don't care much about grades at all (but they do care that you went to a TOP school). My guess is that they, like most b-student recruiters, look at things like extracurriculars, prior work experience, etc. (essentially that you somehow have proven yourself in a leadership position), and how you answer the interview questions (I would imagine you aren't going to get the typical biglaw BS questions, such as "tell me about yourself," "why law school," and "what has been your favorite class"). In other words, the typical liberal arts major law student who has zero work experience, took zero leadership positions in extracirriculars, and is a "bad interviewer" with biglaw questions, is not going to be able to get into management consulting.

I don't think the 5-10 number is accurate. I know of a couple (and there may be more) uchicago law students who obtained Mckinsey spots last year. They also have several active recruiting events for JD/MD/PhD students per year. It seems like a lot of effort if they are only snatching up around ten per year. The truth is no one knows how many JD/PhD/ MBAs Mckinsey hires because they don't publish this data.

Yeah, I don’t have the exact numbers (I just posted that number based on what I heard). However, I don’t think that there is all that much effort that Mckinsey puts into recruiting JD/PhD or other students. At my school basically all they do is allow these students to apply and will interview them when they come out to recruit MBA students. So they were already here anyways, and basically all they seem to be doing is casting a wider application pool by allowing JD and PhD students to apply (which doesn’t necessarily mean that they have to interview many of them or will hire many of them). I guess the nice thing is that they most likely don’t care about grades, but at the same time I would imagine a lot of the law students that do get hired have prior work or other experiences where they could have gotten hired by McKinsey anyways if they got an MBA (at least if their recruiting is anything like other business employers that is true).

[spondee]

... I don’t think that there is all that much effort that Mckinsey puts into recruiting JD/PhD or other students. At my school basically all they do is allow these students to apply and will interview them when they come out to recruit MBA students. So they were already here anyways, and basically all they seem to be doing is casting a wider application pool by allowing JD and PhD students to apply (which doesn’t necessarily mean that they have to interview many of them or will hire many of them).

This must vary by school.

At mine, they participate in the law school's OCI - separate from MBA interviewing. They also actively recruit applicants: they host cocktail receptions for 1L/2Ls (I remember invitations to two); and they had regular summer web "presentations" for rising 2Ls. The invitations for these were specific to Yale, Harvard, Columbia and NYU students, but I just assumed that was a regional thing with other invitations covering other regions. I've received more emails and information from McKinsey encouraging me to apply than I have from any law firm.

I got the strong impression that McKinsey actually likes JDs (so long as they can pass the interviews, of course). But McKinsey also suggested they were unique among management consulting firms for actively recruiting JDs.

[megaTTTron]

... I don’t think that there is all that much effort that Mckinsey puts into recruiting JD/PhD or other students. At my school basically all they do is allow these students to apply and will interview them when they come out to recruit MBA students. So they were already here anyways, and basically all they seem to be doing is casting a wider application pool by allowing JD and PhD students to apply (which doesn’t necessarily mean that they have to interview many of them or will hire many of them).

This must vary by school.

At mine, they participate in the law school's OCI - separate from MBA interviewing. They also actively recruit applicants: they host cocktail receptions for 1L/2Ls (I remember invitations to two); and they had regular summer web "presentations" for rising 2Ls. The invitations for these were specific to Yale, Harvard, Columbia and NYU students, but I just assumed that was a regional thing with other invitations covering other regions. I've received more emails and information from McKinsey encouraging me to apply than I have from any law firm.

I got the strong impression that McKinsey actually likes JDs (so long as they can pass the interviews, of course). But McKinsey also suggested they were unique among management consulting firms for actively recruiting JDs.

same thing at chicago.

[Anonymous User]

... I don’t think that there is all that much effort that Mckinsey puts into recruiting JD/PhD or other students. At my school basically all they do is allow these students to apply and will interview them when they come out to recruit MBA students. So they were already here anyways, and basically all they seem to be doing is casting a wider application pool by allowing JD and PhD students to apply (which doesn’t necessarily mean that they have to interview many of them or will hire many of them).

This must vary by school.

At mine, they participate in the law school's OCI - separate from MBA interviewing. They also actively recruit applicants: they host cocktail receptions for 1L/2Ls (I remember invitations to two); and they had regular summer web "presentations" for rising 2Ls. The invitations for these were specific to Yale, Harvard, Columbia and NYU students, but I just assumed that was a regional thing with other invitations covering other regions. I've received more emails and information from McKinsey encouraging me to apply than I have from any law firm.

I got the strong impression that McKinsey actually likes JDs (so long as they can pass the interviews, of course). But McKinsey also suggested they were unique among management consulting firms for actively recruiting JDs.

I think McKinsey actively recruits JDs at the top 5 law schools, or maybe just Yale, Harvard, Columbia and NYU. They do however solicit applications from other t-14 schools. I attend a MVPB and got selected to go through the first round of examinations after I submitted my resume online. (I later withdrew my application.)

It doesn't really matter whether or not they "actively" recruit from your school though, because if you have a decent undergrad record from a good school/good SAT and LSAT scores (the application asks for your SATs, undergrad GPA, undergrad school, etc.), you will probably be selected for a first round interview regardless of whether they actively recruit on your law school's campus. (I assume consulting asks for your SAT scores by section because the job pretty much just requires econ/basic math and therefore the quantitative SAT Math section is most indicative of consulting ability.) To get past the first round, all that really matters is your score on the exam, which tests econ/basic math ability, and to a lesser extent the case studies. To get through the later rounds, your results depend entirely on case studies. So really, on-campus active recruiting means nothing with respect to your likelihood of getting the job.

[Seally]

I’m not sure that ToTransferOrNot’s point is completely accurate. McKinsey does actively “recruit” at top law schools, but it hires a very small number of them (like I said in my previous post, I’ve heard the number as between 5-10 nationwide last year, mostly from Harvard). If McKinsey hiring is like just about any other business employer, I’d bet my wallet that all of those people that got offers had significant leadership experience (through work experience, extracurriculars, etc.). So it’s not like you just go to straight to a top law school with a liberal arts degree, have 0 work experience, have 0 leadership experience, get neither of those 2 in law school (like the typical law school grad), and then go off into management consulting.

The JD/MBA is stupid for business positions because you could just save 2 years, get just the MBA, and then get a business position. Or even better, you could go work for 2 years (go start a successful business if you were a liberal arts major and now no one will hire you), and then get an MBA in the same timeframe. If anything, I would imagine a lot of business employers will question why you want to work for them and not practice law after getting a JD.

That's a matter of opinion, there are 3 years JD/MBA programs out there, even though it's not for everyone, if you want an asset against Business grads, this mix is definitely desirable, never saw JD/MBA grads failing to achieve their goals (Unless you forget the Top 14 and go to Drexel's JD/MBA program...), most of the friends i know hold more than decent positions.


For those really wondering about Consulting salaries but don't want to invest too much time into research for X reason:

http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

Have fun =)

[ToTransferOrNot]

I’m not sure that ToTransferOrNot’s point is completely accurate. McKinsey does actively “recruit” at top law schools, but it hires a very small number of them (like I said in my previous post, I’ve heard the number as between 5-10 nationwide last year, mostly from Harvard). If McKinsey hiring is like just about any other business employer, I’d bet my wallet that all of those people that got offers had significant leadership experience (through work experience, extracurriculars, etc.). So it’s not like you just go to straight to a top law school with a liberal arts degree, have 0 work experience, have 0 leadership experience, get neither of those 2 in law school (like the typical law school grad), and then go off into management consulting.

The JD/MBA is stupid for business positions because you could just save 2 years, get just the MBA, and then get a business position. Or even better, you could go work for 2 years (go start a successful business if you were a liberal arts major and now no one will hire you), and then get an MBA in the same timeframe. If anything, I would imagine a lot of business employers will question why you want to work for them and not practice law after getting a JD.

That's a matter of opinion, there are 3 years JD/MBA programs out there, even though it's not for everyone, if you want an asset against Business grads, this mix is definitely desirable, never saw JD/MBA grads failing to achieve their goals (Unless you forget the Top 14 and go to Drexel's JD/MBA program...), most of the friends i know hold more than decent positions.


For those really wondering about Consulting salaries but don't want to invest too much time into research for X reason:

http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

Have fun =)

Problem with the three-year programs: you have to take classes through the summer. This means you can't do summer associate positions in either business or law. I don't know to what extent that kills you on the business side of things, but it certainly kills you on the law side of things.

[bdubs]

Problem with the three-year programs: you have to take classes through the summer. This means you can't do summer associate positions in either business or law. I don't know to what extent that kills you on the business side of things, but it certainly kills you on the law side of things.

That is not true. All of the three year programs in the T14 only have summer courses in between 1L and 2L, so your SA summer is open. Everyone who is in the program should have WE, so not having a 1L gig is not as big of a deal.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Problem with the three-year programs: you have to take classes through the summer. This means you can't do summer associate positions in either business or law. I don't know to what extent that kills you on the business side of things, but it certainly kills you on the law side of things.

That is not true. All of the three year programs in the T14 only have summer courses in between 1L and 2L, so your SA summer is open. Everyone who is in the program should have WE, so not having a 1L gig is not as big of a deal.

Could have sworn I've seen people talk about classes between 2L and 3L. My mistake.

[underdawg]

no one else thought it was really fucking weird that the guy who loved consulting loved it because of frequent flier miles and free food?!

i thought it was really fucking weird

[ToTransferOrNot]

no one else thought it was really fucking weird that the guy who loved consulting loved it because of frequent flier miles and free food?!

i thought it was really fucking weird

free food is a pretty big addition to compensation. Miles make vacations considerably cheaper. I do not understand the problem.

[XxSpyKEx]

I’m not sure that ToTransferOrNot’s point is completely accurate. McKinsey does actively “recruit” at top law schools, but it hires a very small number of them (like I said in my previous post, I’ve heard the number as between 5-10 nationwide last year, mostly from Harvard). If McKinsey hiring is like just about any other business employer, I’d bet my wallet that all of those people that got offers had significant leadership experience (through work experience, extracurriculars, etc.). So it’s not like you just go to straight to a top law school with a liberal arts degree, have 0 work experience, have 0 leadership experience, get neither of those 2 in law school (like the typical law school grad), and then go off into management consulting.

The JD/MBA is stupid for business positions because you could just save 2 years, get just the MBA, and then get a business position. Or even better, you could go work for 2 years (go start a successful business if you were a liberal arts major and now no one will hire you), and then get an MBA in the same timeframe. If anything, I would imagine a lot of business employers will question why you want to work for them and not practice law after getting a JD.

That's a matter of opinion, there are 3 years JD/MBA programs out there, even though it's not for everyone, if you want an asset against Business grads, this mix is definitely desirable, never saw JD/MBA grads failing to achieve their goals (Unless you forget the Top 14 and go to Drexel's JD/MBA program...), most of the friends i know hold more than decent positions.


For those really wondering about Consulting salaries but don't want to invest too much time into research for X reason:

http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

Have fun =)

Problem with the three-year programs: you have to take classes through the summer. This means you can't do summer associate positions in either business or law. I don't know to what extent that kills you on the business side of things, but it certainly kills you on the law side of things.

Kills you on the business side of things as well. Maybe even more than on the law side because experience is really important to business employers. Also, a lot of people get permanent job offers from the internship they do between their first and second year for their MBA (but, on the other hand, from what I’ve seen, it’s not quite as cut-throat as in law where your odds of finding full-time employment at a decent law firm diminishes to next to nothing if you don’t do a 2L SA).

[bdubs]

no one else thought it was really fucking weird that the guy who loved consulting loved it because of frequent flier miles and free food?!

i thought it was really fucking weird

If you don't care about giving up your life for several years, its a great gig. You travel all the time, which means you live and eat on someone elses dime. Your 80k salary (if your undergrad) goes pretty much straight into the bank. When you leave you have a shit ton of freq flier miles to take an around the world vacation.

Having zero living expenses and making 80k is about the same as working as an associate in NYC compensation/living expense wise.

It would be weird if a person had done this and actually liked it. I have a feeling that person has not experienced this personally.

[underdawg]

no one else thought it was really fucking weird that the guy who loved consulting loved it because of frequent flier miles and free food?!

i thought it was really fucking weird

free food is a pretty big addition to compensation. Miles make vacations considerably cheaper. I do not understand the problem.

thats the only thing the guy mentioned that he liked about the job, in mind numbing detail. it's pretty fucking weird

also you can bill 3000/yr and have a shit hole apt working biglaw too. it's pretty fucking weird that that's mentioned as a plus. pretty fucking weird

[Seally]

Problem with the three-year programs: you have to take classes through the summer. This means you can't do summer associate positions in either business or law. I don't know to what extent that kills you on the business side of things, but it certainly kills you on the law side of things.

That is not true. All of the three year programs in the T14 only have summer courses in between 1L and 2L, so your SA summer is open. Everyone who is in the program should have WE, so not having a 1L gig is not as big of a deal.

Agreed, but still, 3 year JD/MBA = Brutal, you'll basically have to complete a 3 years Law degree in 2 years in order to get into the MBA program, no break until Third year...

[Seally]

no one else thought it was really fucking weird that the guy who loved consulting loved it because of frequent flier miles and free food?!

i thought it was really fucking weird

If you don't care about giving up your life for several years, its a great gig. You travel all the time, which means you live and eat on someone elses dime. Your 80k salary (if your undergrad) goes pretty much straight into the bank. When you leave you have a shit ton of freq flier miles to take an around the world vacation.

Having zero living expenses and making 80k is about the same as working as an associate in NYC compensation/living expense wise.

It would be weird if a person had done this and actually liked it. I have a feeling that person has not experienced this personally.

True, 80k is pretty much on high end for Analysts, Lawyers and MBAs who get recruited start as Associates and begin with anywhere from 140k to 200k depending on the Consulting firm they sign for.
Pay for Consulting Partners is very unstable, highly performance based.


I'll avoid making a wall of text, so i will sum it up:

Consulting pros: - Less hours than Investment Banking.
- Better Benefit/Retirement Packages.
- Easier to network.
- Better global exit opportunities than Investment Banking and BigLaw.
- More collegial atmoshere, less pressure for work and people actually help each other.
- More exciting work at an earlier level, still not a walk in the park.

cons: - Consulting salaries end up 30-50% lower than Investment Banking salaries, simply because
Bonuses are not as high.
- Believe it or not, travelling is not always cool when you have a family to take
take care of, especially when they send you in the middle of Wyoming to work on a
project.
- It's fairly easy to get laid off if you do not contribute enough, naturally shy people should
worry about this.

Investment Banking pros: - Good salary and opportunities for high bonuses.
- More respected than Consulting.
- As your seniority increases, if you survive lay offs during your years,
you may end up making big bucks as a VP/MD.

cons: - Working hours are brutal, mostly 13-16 hours/day, but it can get
FAR WORSE.
- High risk profession, market has a higher chance to blow up than for
Consulting, many Investment Bankers do NOT make it to VP/MD.
- Shit Benefits/Retirement packages compared to Consulting.
- Don't think that making 200k/year as a 28 years old Associate means
you're rich, you'll have to live in the most expensive areas in order to work
in Investment Banking, Manhattan is an example, you will spend a lot and
probably won't even look at the word "saving" as long as you stay in Investment
Banking.
- Nature of work is boring, grunt work is present, you'll have to wait until you
reach VP/MD level to actually do something interesting.

BigLaw pros: - Decent/Good salary in most cases.
- Better Benefit/Retirement Packages than Investment Banking, comparable to Consulting.
- Better chance to make Partner than Investment Banking.
- Fairly good exit opportunities, you can move go Consulting/Investment Banking/In-house/
BigGov with useful assets.
- Most of the time, actual Partners knowing you won't make Partner usually give you
useful contacts and help to get decent jobs once you leave BigLaw.

cons: - Shit hours but less harsh than what Investment Bankers have to go through.
- Nature of work is far more boring than Consulting/Invesment Banking.
- In your first years, you will lack contact with pretty much everyone within the firm.
- Secretaries, Paralegals and other support staff do have an impact on a
decision wether to make an Associate go Partner or tell him to leave.


Hope it helps guys.

[005618502]

How much do these positions pay? less then biglaw? then why would people from top schools do this rather then biglaw? both sound like crazy hours and hard work, but at least with biglaw you are in an office and can maintain a relationship

[Seally]

How much do these positions pay? less then biglaw? then why would people from top schools do this rather then biglaw? both sound like crazy hours and hard work, but at least with biglaw you are in an office and can maintain a relationship

Consulting is in fact less hard than BigLaw, some choose it just because of this detail and don't care about travelling.

Pay is similar/comparable between BigLaw or Consulting.

[underdawg]

How much do these positions pay? less then biglaw? then why would people from top schools do this rather then biglaw? both sound like crazy hours and hard work, but at least with biglaw you are in an office and can maintain a relationship

free food, bro

[nicola.kirwan]

So...no perspectives on the grades question posted above?

I went through a round of interviews with McKinsey... I got the sense that everyone had pretty high grades, and it really was HYSCCN only.

Edit: In other words, this isn't a backstop incase you miss the biglaw train. If anything, getting a good consulting gig is probably harder than getting biglaw.

Well...I would think that given that the Practice of Law and Management consulting are completely different professions, one wouldn't try to jump from biglaw dreams to consulting dreams, but rather simply down a tier within their chosen profession--biglaw to mid-sized firm, for instance. So if some are thinking of management consulting as a "backup" the first mistake may have been made in not having clear career goals in mind.

That being said, Yale doesn't have GPAs, nor does Harvard or Stanford. I read elsewhere by a McKinsey consultant that they didn't ask for his law school grades at all, which is counter intuitive, but given the way those schools tend to operate, is unsurprising. I just wanted to know if anyone knew for a fact what their perspective on grad school GPA is...especially when it's not exactly reportable.

Also, after researching this a bit, I wonder if the tippy top consulting firms are definitely difficult to get into, but for reasons that people don't expect. Namely, being hired seems to be a matter of having high enough credentials to get past the initial screening and then it's really a matter of your performance with the cases, in addition to whatever specialized knowledge you may have. These firms hire right out of undergrad. I haven't gotten the impression that it's great work experience they're looking for.

Also, a current Bain consultant confirmed a suspicion of mine by saying that in the 18 months he's worked there, he's never met anyone who was hired through the website. They were all either recruited or referred. I think that while it's not automatic that one will get into a top firm by going to a a top school, it does seem to be the case that if you position yourself well, the opportunity to be recruited will be readily available to you, but you'll have to prove yourself in the interviews, which I suspect people really underestimate. There are campus organizations that devote hours upon hours to mastering those cases. I think more people probably disqualify themselves there than anywhere else.

[Anonymous User]

MVP person here. I'm not sure about the grades question. Perhaps YHS people not having grades suggests that the firms put greater weight on undergrad credentials and SAT/LSAT scores than law school grades, which would make sense, considering most consultants are MBAs/straight out of undergrads.

fwiw, I think my law school grades were the weakest part of my application and I was still selected to move onto the next round. (I did, however, have an econ/math background in undergrad, and I think McKinsey/Bain actively recruited from my undergrad anyway.) That said, I'm not convinced that attending HYSCN gives you a leg up beyond making it easier to submit an initial application, considering your results for the first round are pretty much based entirely on your score on the objective exam and for the latter two rounds your results are based on case studies. Perhaps certain schools' alumni seems more prevalent at consulting firms because the individuals from these schools tend to exhibit greater potential and interest in consulting than students from other schools. This shouldn't be confused with "getting a leg up" for simply attending a particular school. Additionally, consulting firms actively recruit at a ton of undergrads and other grad programs where they don't preferentially hire people. I have no reason to believe that they would treat law students differently.

[Anonymous User]

i attended a mckinsey presentation at uva, and the guy there said mckinsey had hired between 1-3 people form each uva law class for the past few years, and that basically nobody returns to law after entering consulting. he named one person, and he described that person as a "freak of nature."

[Renzo]

i attended a mckinsey presentation at uva, and the guy there said mckinsey had hired between 1-3 people form each uva law class for the past few years, and that basically nobody returns to law after entering consulting. he named one person, and he described that person as a "freak of nature."

The lawyer leading the recruiting pitch at my school told everyone that we should take the bar just for the achievement, even though we would never practice as lawyers if we went in to consulting.

[motiontodismiss]

What are the chances of getting sponsored for a JD/MBA from a foreign office of a big 4? Given ITE I'm really rethinking this law school thing...I would rant to my friend but he'd tell me to stop bitching and get that 170.

[nicola.kirwan]

What are the chances of getting sponsored for a JD/MBA from a foreign office of a big 4? Given ITE I'm really rethinking this law school thing...I would rant to my friend but he'd tell me to stop bitching and get that 170.

MBA sponsorship isn't uncommon, though I did read that Bain does not like its associates to stop working to go back to school...so you'd have to know the particular firm culture. Deloitte however, (not big 4, but up there) actively uses MBA sponsorship as a marketing tool.

Now, sponsoring a JD, I don't know about that one. While the consulting firms supposedly "love the way law students think," I don't see how it's in their interest to pay for a law degree that won't ultimately serve its intended end: the practice of law. Unless you are looking at joining the Tax practice at one of these firms, I'd highly doubt that they'd sponsor a law degree.