86/200 Class of Cornell 2011 have SA Positions: abovethelaw Forum

[270910]

Maybe I'm not reading Lat's analysis correctly but to me this read that 40% get summer associate positions that doesn't exactly correlate into an offer for employment after law school.

I wonder if that rate will be lower?

Well, firms do their best to screen carefully and make as close to 100% offers as possible. More importnatly, many of those currently working as SAs from Cornell will go on to clerk (and thus not be reported as 'employed in an NLJ 250 firm after graduation'), work for the govt, etc. So a lot of people still have the 40-60% at graduation NLJ250 statistic in their head and don't realize that to get 40-60% employed at graduation requires MANY more serving as summer associates.

[rayiner]

Right. 63% NLJ250 requires:

+10% for ppl who go to clerkships,
+5% for people who go to fed gov/PI, etc.

Assume 95% offer rates in NYC and you need over 80% getting SAs.

[pasteurizedmilk]

Cornell typically has about 190 graduates each year, so this is about 45% getting NYC biglaw SAs. Huge fall from 80% during the boom, but actually marginally better than I expected.

I was encouraged by this # as well.

[XxSpyKEx]

If only there were ways to make money outside of BIGLAW...

Look, if your only reason for going to law school is because you want a BIGLAW job making $160k a year, don't go to law school. Don't do it. Go to law school because you want to be a lawyer -- regardless of biglaw or small law. For the majority of lawyers, law is not lucrative for the first 5 - 7 years. For many biglaw associates, law is lucrative for the first 5 years and then you get laid off or aren't "partnership material" and you're making $45k a year as a newly minted solo.

Also, not much Cornell can do to make law firms hire. Prestige of your degree doesn't generate cash flow. Law is a profession. You provide professional services to clients. If clients aren't willing to pay you for those services, you're unemployed.

You guys might not like this, but many clients are jumping ship from biglaw firms. They don't want to pay a first year associate $400 an hour and a partner $650 an hour and be billed every time one of them so much has a dream about the case. There is NO justification to charge a client $400 an hour for a first year associate. For the first time ever, many biglaw firms are willing to drop their rates in order to retain clients. This creates less of a demand and profit margin on first year associates, who are essentially useless. The outrageous gravy train of biglaw is over -- they're going to drop their rates and cut the fat in order to survive.

The bad news for you is that a law degree, no matter where it's from, more and more is not a guaranteed six figure salary out of law school. You're going to have to earn it and struggle for awhile.

Honestly, I would be perfectly happy leaving law school making $45K /year if I could a) not have to repay student loans, which comes out to a non-dischargable, no tangible assets mortgage and b) didn't have to work more than 40-45 hours a week. (FYI- the average american makes slightly more money than $45K /year and only works 40 hours a week). The problem is that realistically you can't get out of law school with a degree that will get you that $45K /year job for less than $150-200K (unless you are a complete nerd with no life and just happened to have a 3.95 UGPA, and an equally stellar LSAT score), and that you can't find law firms where you only need to work 40-45 hours a week. More typically, it's around 60 hours a week for $50K /year, and that's if you are lucky enough to find a job at a small law firm at all. I blame law schools for being dickheads and jacking up tuition to unjustifiable levels (tuition has gone up 3 times the consumer price index in the past years!), and that basically forces law students to fight fiercely for these biglaw positions that they are going to hate because it's the only way you can get out of law school and comfortably repay their student loans.

[chadwick218]

40% is better than I would have expected ... what will be interesting to see is how many receive offers. Offer rates should be considerably higher this summer than last as class sizes were adjusted beforehand.

[pasteurizedmilk]

40% is better than I would have expected ... what will be interesting to see is how many receive offers. Offer rates should be considerably higher this summer than last as class sizes were adjusted beforehand.

this would make a lot of sense. Firms know what's up now (or at least they should)

[Grizz]

40% is better than I would have expected ... what will be interesting to see is how many receive offers. Offer rates should be considerably higher this summer than last as class sizes were adjusted beforehand.

I really hope this is true as well. And it makes perfect sense.

[badwithpseudonyms]

40% is better than I would have expected ... what will be interesting to see is how many receive offers. Offer rates should be considerably higher this summer than last as class sizes were adjusted beforehand.

Okay, that seems likely. But is it better to be a 2L SA and be no offered or to not get a 2L SA at all?

[Grizz]

But is it better to be a 2L SA and be no offered or to not get a 2L SA at all?

Someone risk the banhammer by posting a philosoraptor meme

[Anonymous User]

But is it better to be a 2L SA and be no offered or to not get a 2L SA at all?

Someone risk the banhammer by posting a philosoraptor meme

Why is philosoraptor bannable? He raises good questions.

[Grizz]

But is it better to be a 2L SA and be no offered or to not get a 2L SA at all?

Someone risk the banhammer by posting a philosoraptor meme

Why is philosoraptor bannable? He raises good questions.

Why are you anonymous?

[let/them/eat/cake]

40% is better than I would have expected ... what will be interesting to see is how many receive offers. Offer rates should be considerably higher this summer than last as class sizes were adjusted beforehand.

I really hope this is true as well. And it makes perfect sense.

+1. thinking offer rates are going to be as low as 09 or 10 is asinine. no-offering has to be the absolute worst thing a firm can do for its recruiting reputation, and will prob be avoided at all costs.

these numbers were better than I expected, and are, honestly, not THAT bad.

also, philosoraptor is awesome. and would have been perfect for that ridiculous question.

while on the subject of raptors:

http://xkcd.com/87/ and http://xkcd.com/135/

[Lincoln]

40% is better than I would have expected ... what will be interesting to see is how many receive offers. Offer rates should be considerably higher this summer than last as class sizes were adjusted beforehand.

With regards to adjusting class size, I believe you're right. A good friend of mine from a T10 school is currently a SA at a V10 firm (one which also does OCI at Cornell). His SA class is 60 people, down from 150 in 2008, according to him. If a firm cuts its summer associate class by that much, it would seem that they are doing it not to no-offer a bunch of people, but because they expect that's approximately how many they will end up hiring. In light of this, I think it's fair to say that the statistics released by Cornell provide a reasonably accurate indication of what percentage of the class will end up with Big Law offers, even if a certain number of people choose not to accept them.

Whether that number is a positive or negative surprise is in the eye of the beholder, and, I suspect, strongly correlates with whether that person decided to apply to law school before or after the crash.

[badwithpseudonyms]

Apparently my attempt at humor was quite poor.

Edit: Lincoln's last comment was spot on.