Will legal career prospects level out? Forum

[swc65]

Would also be nice to see how many of those deferrals were actually PAID deferrals (not everyone was dishing out 60k...), and how many of those deferrals turned into awkward "sorry, we don't have a place for you anymore..."s. No way do I believe that 70% or whatever of Cornell's 2009 class is working in BigLaw right now.

The one universal truth is that you can't convince an admitted 0L that prospects are anything but amazing.

I never said prospects are amazing. I just don't think the sky is falling.

[thepunisher24]

Are you in audit? I'm also in big 4 public accounting, and my mandatory hours are currently 55 hours/week through mid-March (our "busy season"). However, things are bad right now, very bad. I'm seeing a shift in the mentality of the employees at the staff/senior level. People aren't willing to work ridiculous hours for the salary we're being paid and the abuse we're taking. Since last September, I've billed over 3600 total hours (with 3000 of that being client service time), and while I have arguably one of the worst schedules of my colleagues, I do not appear to be the exception. In recent years, salaries have tumbled while the work load has only increased. From what I've seen/heard, morale is near an all-time low. Believe me, I'm looking forward to my exit before school starts in the Fall.

You billed over 3600 hours in 4.5 months huh? That's impressive, you billed more than 24 hours a day. Unless you mean to include the month of September, in which case you've billed 21.5 hours per day for 5.5 months straight. Actually, more than that, since you said "over" 3600.

Unless you're referring to September '08, in which case you've averaged over 230 hours per month. I'd say that rivals biglaw associates. Do people pad their hours at your firm? Because they sure as hell do it in biglaw firms.

No. September 2008. And rather than padding hours, the opposite is actually true. It's common practice to EAT hours to ensure budgets are met. Thanks for the sarcasm though, I appreciate it.

[swc65]

First, things really were not that bad compared to other industries. You not have a huge unemployment rate among new lawyers from top schools. Cornell for example still had 93% of their class of 2009 employed by graduation most in large private law firms (86%) --LinkRemoved-- (Salary Stats are not out yet, but I suspect they have not changed much). Also, very few firms cut salaries and many of the ones that did shifted some portion of salaries to year end bonuses (see DLA PIPER). Other firms simply froze salaries (SeeSidley Austin LLP and Winston and Strawn). Other firms, Latham, who froze salaries last year are giving associates "make whole" bonuses to make up for it and pushing their salaries up this year. Some firms are also recalling deferred associates. Other firms are still having troubles (see Mintz Levin deferring associates until 2012!! just months before the end of the world).

I am not too certain how these changes might affect people who graduate from less prestigious universities or universities that serve secondary markets. However, I think things have turned a corner in the legal market, much like the rest of the country. Also, no one wants things to returned to the frenzied craziness of 2006-7 because that level of activity was unstastainable, but I think things have leveled out. At least, I am betting about 200k plus forgone earnings on things having leveled out and possibly improving by 2013.

Those Cornell numbers are...odd. Only ONE person working for the government??? Only ONE person doing public interest??? Does Cornell's LRAP suck or something?

That does not include clerkships and it is consistent with previous years. 06- they had 4 and last year they had two.

[jason8821]

I have mentioned this before but at one point in time, I have looked into every single "Respectable/professional" career forum, and even some blue collar ones to see what people think and this is what I got. Everyone thinks their career puts in more hours period. All of my family teaches and the ones who do well easily put in 65 hours week with class time/grading/meeting with students. Architects put in 70-80 hours/week reg. Same with Residents, and a lot of doctors/surgeons and fireman say they put in tons of stressful days and long hours. Everyone from blue to white collar America is suffering as most well paying prestigious careers turn people into workaholics. I guess with my original questions is will a career in law eventually suck worse than even all these careers? I think it just comes down to who I am asking. You name it, there probably isn't one kick ass job that requires less than 50-60 hours/week when you're working your way up the ladder. Pilot, Architect, Lawyer, Doctor, Accountant, and the list goes on and on.

[swc65]

I have mentioned this before but at one point in time, I have looked into every single "Respectable/professional" career forum, and even some blue collar ones to see what people think and this is what I got. Everyone thinks their career puts in more hours period. All of my family teaches and the ones who do well easily put in 65 hours week with class time/grading/meeting with students. Architects put in 70-80 hours/week reg. Same with Residents, and a lot of doctors/surgeons and fireman say they put in tons of stressful days and long hours. Everyone from blue to white collar America is suffering as most well paying prestigious careers turn people into workaholics. I guess with my original questions is will a career in law eventually suck worse than even all these careers? I think it just comes down to who I am asking. You name it, there probably isn't one kick ass job that requires less than 50-60 hours/week when you're working your way up the ladder. Pilot, Architect, Lawyer, Doctor, Accountant, and the list goes on and on.

I think you are right about the hours. Whether you make a lot or a little, people in the US work a lot of hours, generally. That is why you should shoot for a job that you love, otherwise you end up sad and jaded!

[Renzo]

I have mentioned this before but at one point in time, I have looked into every single "Respectable/professional" career forum, and even some blue collar ones to see what people think and this is what I got. Everyone thinks their career puts in more hours period. All of my family teaches and the ones who do well easily put in 65 hours week with class time/grading/meeting with students. Architects put in 70-80 hours/week reg. Same with Residents, and a lot of doctors/surgeons and fireman say they put in tons of stressful days and long hours. Everyone from blue to white collar America is suffering as most well paying prestigious careers turn people into workaholics. I guess with my original questions is will a career in law eventually suck worse than even all these careers? I think it just comes down to who I am asking. You name it, there probably isn't one kick ass job that requires less than 50-60 hours/week when you're working your way up the ladder. Pilot, Architect, Lawyer, Doctor, Accountant, and the list goes on and on.

If firefighters actually say that, they are filthy liars. It's the easiest money you can possibly make. I'd say it's easier than stealing, but I actually think it kinda is stealing.

[crazycanuck]

If firefighters actually say that, they are filthy liars. It's the easiest money you can possibly make. I'd say it's easier than stealing, but I actually think it kinda is stealing.

Yeah, I'm sure the fire fighters who spend their summer months fighting fires in the B.C interior for 12 hours a day, every day, because fires don't take weekends, trying to protect the communities there, would say it's pretty easy money.

[crazycanuck]

Are you in audit? I'm also in big 4 public accounting, and my mandatory hours are currently 55 hours/week through mid-March (our "busy season"). However, things are bad right now, very bad. I'm seeing a shift in the mentality of the employees at the staff/senior level. People aren't willing to work ridiculous hours for the salary we're being paid and the abuse we're taking. Since last September, I've billed over 3600 total hours (with 3000 of that being client service time), and while I have arguably one of the worst schedules of my colleagues, I do not appear to be the exception. In recent years, salaries have tumbled while the work load has only increased. From what I've seen/heard, morale is near an all-time low. Believe me, I'm looking forward to my exit before school starts in the Fall.

You billed over 3600 hours in 4.5 months huh? That's impressive, you billed more than 24 hours a day. Unless you mean to include the month of September, in which case you've billed 21.5 hours per day for 5.5 months straight. Actually, more than that, since you said "over" 3600.

Unless you're referring to September '08, in which case you've averaged over 230 hours per month. I'd say that rivals biglaw associates. Do people pad their hours at your firm? Because they sure as hell do it in biglaw firms.

No. September 2008. And rather than padding hours, the opposite is actually true. It's common practice to EAT hours to ensure budgets are met. Thanks for the sarcasm though, I appreciate it.

Those kinds of hours are unheard of here. Do you happen to work in a NY or other major center office? My friend who has worked several busy seasons at my big 4 firm said his longest week ever was 68 hours, and that was once. Usually it's 50-55 for that time of year.

[Renzo]

If firefighters actually say that, they are filthy liars. It's the easiest money you can possibly make. I'd say it's easier than stealing, but I actually think it kinda is stealing.

Yeah, I'm sure the fire fighters who spend their summer months fighting fires in the B.C interior for 12 hours a day, every day, because fires don't take weekends, trying to protect the communities there, would say it's pretty easy money.

Wildland firefighters work their asses off, get paid basically nothing (at least in the US), and never complain about it because it's the coolest job ever.

They're different than municipal firefighters, who mostly sleep, work out, and cook spaghetti when they're not pretending to be "heroes" and demanding more money.

[RVP11]

If firefighters actually say that, they are filthy liars. It's the easiest money you can possibly make. I'd say it's easier than stealing, but I actually think it kinda is stealing.

Yeah, I'm sure the fire fighters who spend their summer months fighting fires in the B.C interior for 12 hours a day, every day, because fires don't take weekends, trying to protect the communities there, would say it's pretty easy money.

Wildland firefighters work their asses off, get paid basically nothing (at least in the US), and never complain about it because it's the coolest job ever.

They're different than municipal firefighters, who mostly sleep, work out, and cook spaghetti when they're not pretending to be "heroes" and demanding more money.

Depends a ton on the city and station. Many firefighters who work at stations in rough neighborhoods can average ~10 calls a shift and rarely get more than a few hours sleep in a 24 hour shift.

Firefighter in a nice suburb? Yes, you'll do way less, but it's usually somewhat reflected in the pay.

[Renzo]

If firefighters actually say that, they are filthy liars. It's the easiest money you can possibly make. I'd say it's easier than stealing, but I actually think it kinda is stealing.

Yeah, I'm sure the fire fighters who spend their summer months fighting fires in the B.C interior for 12 hours a day, every day, because fires don't take weekends, trying to protect the communities there, would say it's pretty easy money.

Wildland firefighters work their asses off, get paid basically nothing (at least in the US), and never complain about it because it's the coolest job ever.

They're different than municipal firefighters, who mostly sleep, work out, and cook spaghetti when they're not pretending to be "heroes" and demanding more money.

Depends a ton on the city and station. Many firefighters who work at stations in rough neighborhoods can average ~10 calls a shift and rarely get more than a few hours sleep in a 24 hour shift.

Firefighter in a nice suburb? Yes, you'll do way less, but it's usually somewhat reflected in the pay.

I'll bet a firefighter told you that. 10 calls in 24 hours barely qualifies as work, and those few rare firefighters who run that many will brag about it incessantly.

When I'm pope of the universe I'm going to replace most of them with volunteers.

[thepunisher24]

Are you in audit? I'm also in big 4 public accounting, and my mandatory hours are currently 55 hours/week through mid-March (our "busy season"). However, things are bad right now, very bad. I'm seeing a shift in the mentality of the employees at the staff/senior level. People aren't willing to work ridiculous hours for the salary we're being paid and the abuse we're taking. Since last September, I've billed over 3600 total hours (with 3000 of that being client service time), and while I have arguably one of the worst schedules of my colleagues, I do not appear to be the exception. In recent years, salaries have tumbled while the work load has only increased. From what I've seen/heard, morale is near an all-time low. Believe me, I'm looking forward to my exit before school starts in the Fall.

You billed over 3600 hours in 4.5 months huh? That's impressive, you billed more than 24 hours a day. Unless you mean to include the month of September, in which case you've billed 21.5 hours per day for 5.5 months straight. Actually, more than that, since you said "over" 3600.

Unless you're referring to September '08, in which case you've averaged over 230 hours per month. I'd say that rivals biglaw associates. Do people pad their hours at your firm? Because they sure as hell do it in biglaw firms.

No. September 2008. And rather than padding hours, the opposite is actually true. It's common practice to EAT hours to ensure budgets are met. Thanks for the sarcasm though, I appreciate it.

Those kinds of hours are unheard of here. Do you happen to work in a NY or other major center office? My friend who has worked several busy seasons at my big 4 firm said his longest week ever was 68 hours, and that was once. Usually it's 50-55 for that time of year.

Yes, I work in the Northeast region of the US.

[daesonesb]

I'm thinking of staying in undergrad, getting my 100 level science credits and the MCATS then being a doctor.
Pretty sure they still have jobs, and the work is interesting.

[crazycanuck]

I'm thinking of staying in undergrad, getting my 100 level science credits and the MCATS then being a doctor.
Pretty sure they still have jobs, and the work is interesting.

The hours suck and you'll be paying off your student loans into your 40s.

[thedogship]

The one universal truth is that you can't convince an admitted 0L that prospects are anything but amazing.

The thrust of TLS distilled down to one sentence. Beautiful. Kudos.

[miamiman]

This thread captures why I love tls.

1. BEGINNING: reasonable question about legal employment is posed. Responses offered. Debate ensues.

2. MIDDLE: during afforementioned debate, issue is made over allegeded "hyperbolic" language regarding prospects for employment and statistics used to support prospects. Moderator takes issue with language. Debate ensues.

3. TANGENT: during the course of primary debate, several posters go off on a tangent on hours worked in non-law fields (including accounting and emergency response). Debate ensues.

4. CONCLUSION: original post no longer receives attention. Thread shrivels and dies. Other posters marvel at its lifecourse.

[reasonabledoubt]

The one universal truth is that you can't convince an admitted 0L that prospects are anything but amazing.

The thrust of TLS distilled down to one sentence. Beautiful. Kudos.

Thrust of TLS = willful delusion?

[thedogship]

The one universal truth is that you can't convince an admitted 0L that prospects are anything but amazing.

The thrust of TLS distilled down to one sentence. Beautiful. Kudos.

Thrust of TLS = willful delusion?

In large part. There are some sane people on here with accurate and worthwhile information, but most posting consist of a lot of unfounded assertions, speculation, or stuff that is just flat out wrong.

[James Bond]

Pointless anonymous posting!

[Renzo]

Pointless anonymous posting!

WIll get you outed and banned.

[reasonabledoubt]

The one universal truth is that you can't convince an admitted 0L that prospects are anything but amazing.

The thrust of TLS distilled down to one sentence. Beautiful. Kudos.

Thrust of TLS = willful delusion?

In large part. There are some sane people on here with accurate and worthwhile information, but most posting consist of a lot of unfounded assertions, speculation, or stuff that is just flat out wrong.

I think you're right and I've caught a lot of flak pointing this out in these threads.
George Bernard Shaw: "If you're going to tell people the truth, you better make them laugh; otherwise they'll kill you."
How true it is....

[thedogship]

I think you're right and I've caught a lot of flak pointing this out in these threads.
George Bernard Shaw: "If you're going to tell people the truth, you better make them laugh; otherwise they'll kill you."
How true it is....

Oh well, the truth hurts. I think about how little I knew back when I was an 0L, and it amazes me how much more realistic my viewpoint was than 90% of the people on this site. I just wish fewer 0Ls would get on here and talk out of their asses.

[crazycanuck]

This thread captures why I love tls.

1. BEGINNING: reasonable question about legal employment is posed. Responses offered. Debate ensues.

2. MIDDLE: during afforementioned debate, issue is made over allegeded "hyperbolic" language regarding prospects for employment and statistics used to support prospects. Moderator takes issue with language. Debate ensues.

3. TANGENT: during the course of primary debate, several posters go off on a tangent on hours worked in non-law fields (including accounting and emergency response). Debate ensues.

4. CONCLUSION: original post no longer receives attention. Thread shrivels and dies. Other posters marvel at its lifecourse.

This is the structure of all TLS threads. At least we haven't got into the sex yet.

[XxSpyKEx]

I am curious as to whether or not the career prospects for future lawyer will likely level out. Like many young adults who look at schooling as an endeavor that should result in a positive ROI, I constantly question whether or not law school is a dangerous decision that I gravitate toward as a result of my upbringing and the herd mentality.

My question in short is will people stop applying to law school because there has been a proliferation of "Don't do it" all over the internet and lawyers who are publicly announcing that they graduated from t1 or even t-14 with 200k in loans an cannot find jobs. In my own personal experience this has already started. I know at least a few people who were very intelligent in college but have opted to take work experience over trying to immediately get into law school? If enough bad news spreads do you think this will eventually lead to people who go a different route and allow more legal jobs to open up for those who really want it or do you believe that people will constantly gravitate toward the prestige of a J.D's until there is such an oversupply of lawyers that only the most elite make a decent living?

The answer is no. I think I read somewhere that average law school applications were up somewhere around 25% from the previous year. It's almost counter-intuitive in that as things get shitter in terms of job prospects, more people want a shot at these jobs that are getting incredibly difficult to get. But I can understand why law school applications are going up (i.e. people can't find jobs elsewhere and want to go to law school because it insulates them from having to get a job for 3 years), but I definitely don't think it's a good move (as a lot of law school dean or admissions have also publicly stated).

My bet is that, if anything, the ABA will accredit even more law schools to accommodate the increasing supply of law school applicants.

[SteelReserve]

My question in short is will people stop applying to law school because there has been a proliferation of "Don't do it" all over the internet and lawyers who are publicly announcing that they graduated from t1 or even t-14 with 200k in loans an cannot find jobs.

The answer, simply put, is NO. People will never stop filling the ranks of any school they can get into.

I have friends, cousins, etc and I try to make them understand what is going on--I link them to sites and statistics, I tell them my anecdotal experience...but NO ONE LISTENS. It's a classic case of complete dissonance--they just hear what they want.

I have friends that have LSAT/GPA scores that ensure they will be able to, at best, get into a TTT with no scholarship...no amount of my wisdom can convince them not to go. They just nod their heads.

But the worst thing; the only argument they have that is valid is this: "No one else is hiring, I can't get a job, so what the fuck else am I going to do." I try to counter by telling them to think what it would be like to graduate with massive debt and no job, but everyone will take that risk.

It's unfortuante.