2014 Texas OCI (UT and other schools bidding on TX) Forum

[Anonymous User]

any news about Bickel 3l CBs?

[Anonymous User]

Any word on Susman Godfrey Houston or Perkins Coie Dallas?

[Anonymous User]

I have offers at V&E, Latham, K&E, and Jones Day right now. All Houston. Does anyone have any advice when it comes to choosing between these firms? I want to do corporate/energy work in Houston. Long-term career goals: Work for a firm as long as possible (plus the whole pipe-dream partner thing, but if that doesn't work out then lateral to a different firm or move in-house).

For corporate work, my understanding is that it's V&E/Latham > K&E > Jones Day. Does that sound right?

In terms of the people I met, I would say I got along best with the people at V&E by far. Then Jones Day, which I also really liked. Then Kirkland. Then Latham.

In terms of hours, I've heard that Jones Day might be the lightest (only talking about the Houston office, I am aware of the whole "Jones Day, Night, and Weekends" thing). I've heard that people tend to work more hours at Latham than at V&E. And that K&E in general is a sweatshop, but at least people get better compensation for it. Latham and K&E both seemed to have out-of-state cultures and hours/expectations. So in terms of hours, I was thinking Jones Day > V&E > Latham > K&E. I also realize that all firms will have long hours and this is only a minor consideration because it is so practice group/who you're working for dependent.

I like the idea of being in a headquarter office, which makes V&E appealing. But Latham is killing it right now, and K&E will probably ascend to that top tier shortly. K&E also offers a $20k bonus, which sounds amazing to me. And their end-of-the-year bonuses are also generally above-market. I would be lying if I said I didn't care about the money, but at the same time, I'm not sure I like the idea of just doing private equity. I've never done PE and don't know if I'll like it. The other 3 firms would give me flexibility in choosing my practice group in corporate.

Any thoughts/advice?

[Anonymous User]

I have offers at V&E, Latham, K&E, and Jones Day right now. All Houston. Does anyone have any advice when it comes to choosing between these firms? I want to do corporate/energy work in Houston. Long-term career goals: Work for a firm as long as possible (plus the whole pipe-dream partner thing, but if that doesn't work out then lateral to a different firm or move in-house).

For corporate work, my understanding is that it's V&E/Latham > K&E > Jones Day. Does that sound right?

In terms of the people I met, I would say I got along best with the people at V&E by far. Then Jones Day, which I also really liked. Then Kirkland. Then Latham.

In terms of hours, I've heard that Jones Day might be the lightest (only talking about the Houston office, I am aware of the whole "Jones Day, Night, and Weekends" thing). I've heard that people tend to work more hours at Latham than at V&E. And that K&E in general is a sweatshop, but at least people get better compensation for it. Latham and K&E both seemed to have out-of-state cultures and hours/expectations. So in terms of hours, I was thinking Jones Day > V&E > Latham > K&E. I also realize that all firms will have long hours and this is only a minor consideration because it is so practice group/who you're working for dependent.

I like the idea of being in a headquarter office, which makes V&E appealing. But Latham is killing it right now, and K&E will probably ascend to that top tier shortly. K&E also offers a $20k bonus, which sounds amazing to me. And their end-of-the-year bonuses are also generally above-market. I would be lying if I said I didn't care about the money, but at the same time, I'm not sure I like the idea of just doing private equity. I've never done PE and don't know if I'll like it. The other 3 firms would give me flexibility in choosing my practice group in corporate.

Any thoughts/advice?

It sounds like you should take V&E or Latham since you are not sold on PE. No reason to pick Jones Day over your other options. See if you can do a second look at Latham and meet more people. Congrats on the awesome options!

[Anonymous User]

I have offers at V&E, Latham, K&E, and Jones Day right now. All Houston. Does anyone have any advice when it comes to choosing between these firms? I want to do corporate/energy work in Houston. Long-term career goals: Work for a firm as long as possible (plus the whole pipe-dream partner thing, but if that doesn't work out then lateral to a different firm or move in-house).

For corporate work, my understanding is that it's V&E/Latham > K&E > Jones Day. Does that sound right?

In terms of the people I met, I would say I got along best with the people at V&E by far. Then Jones Day, which I also really liked. Then Kirkland. Then Latham.

In terms of hours, I've heard that Jones Day might be the lightest (only talking about the Houston office, I am aware of the whole "Jones Day, Night, and Weekends" thing). I've heard that people tend to work more hours at Latham than at V&E. And that K&E in general is a sweatshop, but at least people get better compensation for it. Latham and K&E both seemed to have out-of-state cultures and hours/expectations. So in terms of hours, I was thinking Jones Day > V&E > Latham > K&E. I also realize that all firms will have long hours and this is only a minor consideration because it is so practice group/who you're working for dependent.

I like the idea of being in a headquarter office, which makes V&E appealing. But Latham is killing it right now, and K&E will probably ascend to that top tier shortly. K&E also offers a $20k bonus, which sounds amazing to me. And their end-of-the-year bonuses are also generally above-market. I would be lying if I said I didn't care about the money, but at the same time, I'm not sure I like the idea of just doing private equity. I've never done PE and don't know if I'll like it. The other 3 firms would give me flexibility in choosing my practice group in corporate.

Any thoughts/advice?

My thoughts: V&E or Latham.

Jones Day is fine, good firm, fairly busy office, but not top tier work in Houston, especially in the energy sector.

K&E, wants to grow, is growing. Also full of young people. That being said, they have several partners that would be mid-level associates at other firms. Not convinced of their ability to stay busy long term. Also, the bonus sounds great, but what about down the road? They spent a TON of money trying to lure ppl into that office. Are you willing to risk foregoing a bonus/raise for several years because they went so far in the hole to open the office? This is possible because they threw money at every single lateral that came over there. Also, from what I hear, the office is almost totally focused on PE, I would want more diversity, but thats just me. Also, if you arent sure PE is what you want to do, not where to go.

Latham seems like a good bet, growing still, hasnt no-offered anyone since the office opened, busy as fuck and pays NYC lockstep. Also pays a bonus to first years of 15K I think. Larger more established office than K&E, and more diversified practice.

V&E is a good place to go, and if you liked them the best, then go there. Great work, and good reputation. Big office, and the headquarters of the firm. I think they recently changed their compensation to be closer to NYC.

As far as hours... really? you will be busy no matter where you go. Iff you liked V&E the best, go there.

[Anonymous User]

I have offers at V&E, Latham, K&E, and Jones Day right now. All Houston. Does anyone have any advice when it comes to choosing between these firms? I want to do corporate/energy work in Houston. Long-term career goals: Work for a firm as long as possible (plus the whole pipe-dream partner thing, but if that doesn't work out then lateral to a different firm or move in-house).

For corporate work, my understanding is that it's V&E/Latham > K&E > Jones Day. Does that sound right?

In terms of the people I met, I would say I got along best with the people at V&E by far. Then Jones Day, which I also really liked. Then Kirkland. Then Latham.

In terms of hours, I've heard that Jones Day might be the lightest (only talking about the Houston office, I am aware of the whole "Jones Day, Night, and Weekends" thing). I've heard that people tend to work more hours at Latham than at V&E. And that K&E in general is a sweatshop, but at least people get better compensation for it. Latham and K&E both seemed to have out-of-state cultures and hours/expectations. So in terms of hours, I was thinking Jones Day > V&E > Latham > K&E. I also realize that all firms will have long hours and this is only a minor consideration because it is so practice group/who you're working for dependent.

I like the idea of being in a headquarter office, which makes V&E appealing. But Latham is killing it right now, and K&E will probably ascend to that top tier shortly. K&E also offers a $20k bonus, which sounds amazing to me. And their end-of-the-year bonuses are also generally above-market. I would be lying if I said I didn't care about the money, but at the same time, I'm not sure I like the idea of just doing private equity. I've never done PE and don't know if I'll like it. The other 3 firms would give me flexibility in choosing my practice group in corporate.

Any thoughts/advice?

My thoughts: V&E or Latham.

Jones Day is fine, good firm, fairly busy office, but not top tier work in Houston, especially in the energy sector.

K&E, wants to grow, is growing. Also full of young people. That being said, they have several partners that would be mid-level associates at other firms. Not convinced of their ability to stay busy long term. Also, the bonus sounds great, but what about down the road? They spent a TON of money trying to lure ppl into that office. Are you willing to risk foregoing a bonus/raise for several years because they went so far in the hole to open the office? This is possible because they threw money at every single lateral that came over there. Also, from what I hear, the office is almost totally focused on PE, I would want more diversity, but thats just me. Also, if you arent sure PE is what you want to do, not where to go.

Latham seems like a good bet, growing still, hasnt no-offered anyone since the office opened, busy as fuck and pays NYC lockstep. Also pays a bonus to first years of 15K I think. Larger more established office than K&E, and more diversified practice.

V&E is a good place to go, and if you liked them the best, then go there. Great work, and good reputation. Big office, and the headquarters of the firm. I think they recently changed their compensation to be closer to NYC.

As far as hours... really? you will be busy no matter where you go. Iff you liked V&E the best, go there.

Regarding compensation, isn't V&E on NYC lockstep?

[Anonymous User]

I have offers at V&E, Latham, K&E, and Jones Day right now. All Houston. Does anyone have any advice when it comes to choosing between these firms? I want to do corporate/energy work in Houston. Long-term career goals: Work for a firm as long as possible (plus the whole pipe-dream partner thing, but if that doesn't work out then lateral to a different firm or move in-house).

For corporate work, my understanding is that it's V&E/Latham > K&E > Jones Day. Does that sound right?

In terms of the people I met, I would say I got along best with the people at V&E by far. Then Jones Day, which I also really liked. Then Kirkland. Then Latham.

In terms of hours, I've heard that Jones Day might be the lightest (only talking about the Houston office, I am aware of the whole "Jones Day, Night, and Weekends" thing). I've heard that people tend to work more hours at Latham than at V&E. And that K&E in general is a sweatshop, but at least people get better compensation for it. Latham and K&E both seemed to have out-of-state cultures and hours/expectations. So in terms of hours, I was thinking Jones Day > V&E > Latham > K&E. I also realize that all firms will have long hours and this is only a minor consideration because it is so practice group/who you're working for dependent.

I like the idea of being in a headquarter office, which makes V&E appealing. But Latham is killing it right now, and K&E will probably ascend to that top tier shortly. K&E also offers a $20k bonus, which sounds amazing to me. And their end-of-the-year bonuses are also generally above-market. I would be lying if I said I didn't care about the money, but at the same time, I'm not sure I like the idea of just doing private equity. I've never done PE and don't know if I'll like it. The other 3 firms would give me flexibility in choosing my practice group in corporate.

Any thoughts/advice?

I think the last few responses hit it on the head. I think you have nothing to lose with Latham or V&E, and potentially a lot of downside with some of the other options. I would just take one of the two offers soon and never look back.

[Anonymous User]

Regarding compensation, isn't V&E on NYC lockstep?

It's my understanding that V&E is on TX lockstep

[Anonymous User]

Regarding compensation, isn't V&E on NYC lockstep?

It's my understanding that V&E is on TX lockstep

Base Salary according to Vault (http://www.vault.com/company-profiles/l ... rview.aspx):

All U.S. offices
1st year: $160,000
2nd year:$170,000
3rd year:$185,000
4th year:$210,000
5th year:$230,000
6th year:$250,000
7th year:$265,000
8th year:$280,000
Summer associate: $3,077/week

Is that not right? And what is TX lockstep anyway?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone hear of a Jackson Walker Houston offer? Still waiting on them.

[Anonymous User]

I have offers at Akin Gump (Houston) and Jones Day (Houston). Does anyone have advice choosing between these firms? I want to do corporate/transactional work.

[Anonymous User]

I have offers at Akin Gump (Houston) and Jones Day (Houston). Does anyone have advice choosing between these firms? I want to do corporate/transactional work.

I didn't write this, but I found it very helpful:

Agreed on the analysis re LW v. VE v. KE. But I would strongly caution against BB - the Houston office isn't nearly the Corporate player it once was. I would rank (mostly focusing on work quality) the Houston Corp groups as follows:

LW/VE

BG/AK

Sidley/KE/BB/STB

Akin/Paul Hastings

NRF/Locke Lord/Jones Day/Mayer Brown

HayBoo/Porter Hedges/Winston & Strawn/TK/Baker & McKenzie

Gardere/Jackson Walker/Winstead/Strasburger

On a personal note, which people did you like better? And what are your thoughts on the black-box compensation system at Jones Day (as opposed to national lockstep at Akin)?

They're both similarly-sized offices and are national firms, so I think there should be a lot of overlap in terms of work quality. Akin might be a touch more established in Houston, but I don't really think there's a wrong choice here.

[de5igual]

Regarding compensation, isn't V&E on NYC lockstep?

It's my understanding that V&E is on TX lockstep

Base Salary according to Vault (http://www.vault.com/company-profiles/l ... rview.aspx):

All U.S. offices
1st year: $160,000
2nd year:$170,000
3rd year:$185,000
4th year:$210,000
5th year:$230,000
6th year:$250,000
7th year:$265,000
8th year:$280,000
Summer associate: $3,077/week

Is that not right? And what is TX lockstep anyway?

TX lockstep was (maybe still is at some places) a more compressed salary increase per class year. Most firms in Texas follow the national scale now.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone heard from Beck Redden?

[Anonymous User]

Hunton & Williams (Dallas)?

[Anonymous User]

AG (Dallas) post-CB?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone heard from Beck Redden?

Bump

[Anonymous User]

Some thoughts from the other side.

I’m a new associate at a “big law” firm in Texas and I’ve just finished up my first summer, OCI and call back period from the other side of recruiting.

So I thought I would pass along something that I’ve learned in hopes that it will help someone. Every place is different but I think there is some fundamental truth here.
Cover letters: Short and sweet—Here is my resume. I hope you find it valuable towards your recruiting goals. We can find out everything we need to know in your resume, and EVERYONE is a hard worker with a strong work ethic. The longer the cover letter, the more chances you have to make a typo.

Resumes: unless you have had a previous career, DO NOT have a two page resume. Hobbies, only if you have something really interesting (everyone likes golf and baseball). Undergrad GPA is a double edge sword. Those with 4.0’s risk annoying the partner that got a 3.9, and getting dinged by the partner that got a 2.1; or too low may get you dinged from getting an interview—just stick to the stander “cum” honors.
Schools—It does matter where you went to school, but is not impossible to overcome. Rule of thumb, the “higher” ranked your school is the “less” of a quality person you need to be and the converse is true. I know that is a likely given, but what people sometimes don’t realize is that each firm (and offices) ranks schools different. It may because that’s where the managing partner went or that firm/office has had good luck with students from that school. Two pieces of advice: if you come from a lower ranked school (say from Texas) be realistic in your expectations—YOU WILL NOT start in New York Big Law (unless your dad is the managing partner). If a firm does not COME to your OCI and there are no associates from your school at that firm, you are unlikely to get an interview (unless someone important is willing to go to bat for you with someone important in the firm). If you come from a high ranking school, still be careful. There is a fine line between arrogance and confidence. Even low ranking schools produce rain makers, and the Sr. Partner from the TTT can put a damper on your career just as easily as the guy who went to a T-14.

Connections to the city or state. I know this is a big deal for those wanting to come to Texas. Do you have to have connections? No. Does it help? Yes. If you don’t have connections, figure something out about the city and say it’s cool. If asked why Texas, there is no right answer, but the wrong answer is “Everyone else wants to come here,” or “this is where energy is so I want to be here.”

OCI—It’s brutal. There really is no real reason. You have twenty minutes to sell yourself, and even then you may have been dinged in the first 30 seconds. A lot depends on who the firm sends. Even more important is what the firm has told them they are looking for. It’s almost a game of chance, but remember all you need is one.

Callbacks—A lot like OCI, but EVERYONE will be asked to comment on you. Did they ask the 1st year associate what they thought? YES. How about the partner I met in the hallway while waiting to be interviewed? YES. How about . . . ? YES, YES and YES. What to take from this? If you have an opportunity to meet a lot of the lawyers, then do it. Getting less feedback can be just as bad as bad feedback. Also, callbacks are NOT the time to show how fashion forward you are or try out that silly tie. Guys, wear a GD tie. Ladies, I know it is sexist, but you should wear pantyhose. Why? Not for the male pig of a partner, but for the old school lady partner that thinks it is still appropriate business dress. You can likely ditch them after the first week of the summer.

Accepting a summer-- While it is worthy to ask why a firm had a low offer ratio, don’t put much stock in high offer ratios either. There are ways to “game” the offer ratios. Choose the firm you think you will excel at. If you are uncertain about accepting a summer offer go for a second look and ask them why you. What makes them want you? If you think that is you then I think you have a solid chance of getting the offer.

The summer—two aspects: work and social. How you do will answer the only following real questions. Can they do the work? Will they do the work? (because if you think associate life is like summer life, then I suggest you go to small law) Am I willing to be in the office with this person at 2:00 AM drafting an emergency motion? Can I take this person in front of a client?

Associate offers—If the firm gives you a choice of picking practice groups (I know some do rotations), I suggest you think wisely and ask questions before picking. Make sure that group is hiring. Ask what the other summers interests are. Picking two small groups that will only hire one associate is dangerous if there are more than one summers interested. While you may be liked, you may find yourself out in the cold in both sections. Also, show interest in all sections, even if you are not entirely sure. A perceived lack of interest is a sure fire way to not get an offer. It is likely easier to transfer sections after a year or two, than it will be to get hired as a lateral. 2L grades are important not because it will make you, but because bad grades will break you. A firm that says something to the effect, “We have room for everyone,” is lying through its teeth. It knows some people will just not make it and some will accept other offers. It is a numbers game and it has plenty of data to help figure out what they need.

Cold offers—Are there cold offers? Every firm is different, but I think the answer is leaning towards no. Is a firm just extending an offer because they worry that you will make its ratio look bad—I don’t think so. It may seem like a cold offer, but a firm is not going to take on the expense of an associate because it worries that it might have a low offer ratio. Like football, there are depth charts. The firm may be waiting to see where the first string offers land, or that may be the firm can’t put you where you wanted to be (like being put on special teams because you didn’t make the cut as a running back). A “cold” offer is still an offer, the firm just knows it’s not the offer you wanted. Trust me, a big firm has no worries about extending a “no offer.”

So there are my thoughts. Every place is different, but just my observations from the other side after being on your side of the game not too long ago. Good luck. Oh, and there are such things as 3L summers—few and far between but they are out there.

[Anonymous User]

if you come from a lower ranked school (say from Texas) be realistic in your expectations—YOU WILL NOT start in New York Big Law (unless your dad is the managing partner)

There's quite a few of us at UT who've accepted offers in New York Big Law...

[Anonymous User]

if you come from a lower ranked school (say from Texas) be realistic in your expectations—YOU WILL NOT start in New York Big Law (unless your dad is the managing partner)

There's quite a few of us at UT who've accepted offers in New York Big Law...

I think OP was referring to schools more along the lines of SMU/Baylor

Edit: considering I don't think many people would consider UT "lower ranked"

[Anonymous User]

if you come from a lower ranked school (say from Texas) be realistic in your expectations—YOU WILL NOT start in New York Big Law (unless your dad is the managing partner)

There's quite a few of us at UT who've accepted offers in New York Big Law...

I think OP was referring to schools more along the lines of SMU/Baylor

Edit: considering I don't think many people would consider UT "lower ranked"

OP here, I was actually thinking lower. I guess I should have said unranked, but I see the ambiguity in my statement.

[Anonymous User]

Any movement the past couple of days? I can't help but F5 this thread all day.

Specifically waiting to hear back post-CB from Porter Hedges, Gardere (Houston/Dallas), Hunton & Williams (Dallas), and Thompson Coe (Dallas).

[Anonymous User]

Any movement the past couple of days? I can't help but F5 this thread all day.

Specifically waiting to hear back post-CB from Porter Hedges, Gardere (Houston/Dallas), Hunton & Williams (Dallas), and Thompson Coe (Dallas).

I emailed PH about some NALP reimbursement crap that I needed to figure out today and I asked where they were at with offers. They told me they are still making decisions and are aiming to let everyone know by mid to end of next week.

[Anonymous User]

I know Hunton and Williams Dallas gave offers quickly after CBs

[Anonymous User]

Do you all think it is appropriate to send emails checking the status of offers?