School OCI Data Forum

[rayiner]

PENN LAW OCI 2010

128 uniques

242 offices

ouch.

I'd imagine it sounds worse than it is. Penn is an NYC-focused school. Their OCI will consist mostly of V100 firms and their major-market offices. They're not going to have a large number of secondary-market offices like UVA/Michigan, which traditionally spread out their graduates.

Even still, Michigan/UVA get those firms - at least most of them - in addition to the regional shops.

The question is how many they hire and how that hiring affects placement overall. If someone who could get Kirkland from Michigan goes to Wisconsin biglaw that doesn't really help Michigan's overall placemen. And that does happen: eg, there were a lot more NU folks at Kirkland Chicago last year than Michigan folks.

[Anonymous User]

The data anon posted just further distresses me about Vandy's ability to place in BIGLAW outside of the South.

--LinkRemoved--

[09042014]

I can't wait until the next NLJ250 numbers come out. Shit is going to get intense around here.

Which markets no offered the class of 2010 the most?

I am calculating this right now.

Cool.

[holydonkey]

PENN LAW OCI 2010

128 uniques

242 offices

TY!

Now we just need HYS and Chicago for the entire T14

[darkarmour]

fwiw, out of Penn's 128 unique employers, 71 are V100 firms.

and for FALL 2009 OCI, Penn had 131 uniques, 261 offices.

[darkarmour]

.

[KibblesAndVick]

You're the best.

[keg411]

I'll believe this when I see their placement from last year and the coming fall.

I can't wait until the next NLJ250 numbers come out. Shit is going to get intense around here.

Which markets no offered the class of 2010 the most?

I am calculating this right now.

From everything I've read anecdotally it was probably Chicago, but I could be wrong since I don't have the hard data.

[SuichiKurama]

The question is how many they hire and how that hiring affects placement overall. If someone who could get Kirkland from Michigan goes to Wisconsin biglaw that doesn't really help Michigan's overall placemen. And that does happen: eg, there were a lot more NU folks at Kirkland Chicago last year than Michigan folks.

Anyway you look at it that comes out better for Michigan and UVA. So basically their getting almost as much OCI attention from NYC as Penn, plus their getting additional options from other markets. What's just as likely as your scenario is that the Michigan students go to Kirkland NYC, but they also go to Wisconsin, Texas, and Atlanta; while everyone from Penn is fighting for the same spots in NYC with every other top 14 school (including 2 that have home field advantage). Michigan has home field advantage in Chicago after UChicago and arguably NU. UVA has home field advantage in DC (though it's exceeded by HYS there and matched by CC) and home-field advantage in the South. Penn really doesn't have a home market advantage and it doesn't have much of a leg up on Michigan and UVA in NYC.

[Anonymous User]

Balancing that, Kurama, is that all the hiring data I've seen points to NYC firms going deeper into Penn's class than into UVA/Michigan's.

[darkarmour]

Balancing that, Kurama, is that all the hiring data I've seen points to NYC firms going deeper into Penn's class than into UVA/Michigan's.

this is commonly assumed to be true around these parts.

ALSO, since it appears ppl might have forgotten about recent NLJ250 placement statistics, here!

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

[270910]

Balancing that, Kurama, is that all the hiring data I've seen points to NYC firms going deeper into Penn's class than into UVA/Michigan's.

outed as flame, Penn doesn't even give GPAs for you to compare with other data

[SuichiKurama]

Balancing that, Kurama, is that all the hiring data I've seen points to NYC firms going deeper into Penn's class than into UVA/Michigan's.

I've seen the hiring charts for UVA and Michigan. If NYC firms are going deeper into Penn's class than what those charts list for UVA/Michigan it needs to be HYS CCP.

[sbalive]

The question is how many they hire and how that hiring affects placement overall. If someone who could get Kirkland from Michigan goes to Wisconsin biglaw that doesn't really help Michigan's overall placemen. And that does happen: eg, there were a lot more NU folks at Kirkland Chicago last year than Michigan folks.

Anyway you look at it that comes out better for Michigan and UVA. So basically their getting almost as much OCI attention from NYC as Penn, plus their getting additional options from other markets. What's just as likely as your scenario is that the Michigan students go to Kirkland NYC, but they also go to Wisconsin, Texas, and Atlanta; while everyone from Penn is fighting for the same spots in NYC with every other top 14 school (including 2 that have home field advantage). Michigan has home field advantage in Chicago after UChicago and arguably NU. UVA has home field advantage in DC (though it's exceeded by HYS there and matched by CC) and home-field advantage in the South. Penn really doesn't have a home market advantage and it doesn't have much of a leg up on Michigan and UVA in NYC.

Penn also has fewer students than either Michigan or UVA. Plus, bear in mind that you get jobs in places like Wisconsin and Atlanta with local ties.

Nothing I've seen in this thread suggests that any school is being disproportionately favored or harmed by the contraction in SA slots.

[rayiner]

The question is how many they hire and how that hiring affects placement overall. If someone who could get Kirkland from Michigan goes to Wisconsin biglaw that doesn't really help Michigan's overall placemen. And that does happen: eg, there were a lot more NU folks at Kirkland Chicago last year than Michigan folks.

Anyway you look at it that comes out better for Michigan and UVA. So basically their getting almost as much OCI attention from NYC as Penn, plus their getting additional options from other markets. What's just as likely as your scenario is that the Michigan students go to Kirkland NYC, but they also go to Wisconsin, Texas, and Atlanta; while everyone from Penn is fighting for the same spots in NYC with every other top 14 school (including 2 that have home field advantage). Michigan has home field advantage in Chicago after UChicago and arguably NU. UVA has home field advantage in DC (though it's exceeded by HYS there and matched by CC) and home-field advantage in the South. Penn really doesn't have a home market advantage and it doesn't have much of a leg up on Michigan and UVA in NYC.

Better in terms of getting interviews, I agree, but the question is how much that really has a bearing on overall placement. A few people with ties will end up going to secondary markets from UVA/Mich, but that doesn't mean that people who couldn't have gotten NYC offers are the ones going to those markets.

Remember, the secondary markets (Atlanta, etc) have largely battened down the hatches and cut hiring way down. So the fact that there are 150-200 more offices at UVA or whatever doesn't mean much if they're markets like Richmond that don't hire many SAs, have gotten grade-selective ITE, and which most people don't have the ties for anyway.

There is also countervailing factors. NYC V100 firms are used to hiring a whole mess of Penn grads. --LinkRemoved-- That inclination will still exist and will offset the advantages the UVA/Mich get from having secondary market firms come to their OCI.

[como]

I can't wait until the next NLJ250 numbers come out. Shit is going to get intense around here.

Which markets no offered the class of 2010 the most?

I am calculating this right now.

Cool.

I used NALP data for the V100 firms. These numbers reflect the percentage of offers made to the 2009 SA class. I only calculated numbers for five markets (NYC, DC, SF, Chi, LA). I will do Boston later.

NYC - 88%
DC - 81%
SF - 78%
Chicago - 77%
LA - 79%

The numbers for cross-sections of the Vault100 nationwide are as follows:

V5 - 99%
V10 - 97%
V25 - 92%
V50 - 89%
V100 - 84%

Obviously the data cannot capture the situation in each city perfectly, but they seem to reflect my assumptions pretty accurately.

[09042014]

Which markets no offered the class of 2010 the most?

I am calculating this right now.

Cool.

I used NALP data for the V100 firms. These numbers reflect the percentage of offers made to the 2009 SA class. I only calculated numbers for five markets (NYC, DC, SF, Chi, LA). I will do Boston later.

NYC - 88%
DC - 81%
SF - 78%
Chicago - 77%
LA - 79%

The numbers for cross-sections of the Vault100 nationwide are as follows:

V5 - 99%
V10 - 97%
V25 - 92%
V50 - 89%
V100 - 84%

Obviously the data cannot capture the situation in each city perfectly, but they seem to reflect my assumptions pretty accurately.

Nice work. I'm surprised DC was so terrible, I heard they did well.

It looks like CCN, Penn and Cornell will do okay in next years NALP.

[como]

Well, I think one thing to consider is that many of the non-NYC markets have substantial non-Vault firms. If those firms extended large percentages of offers, that would not be reflected in the stats.

Since I'm not super tech-saavy, I don't know how to post the .xls I created to run these numbers. If anyone wants a copy emailed to them (or if you can explain how to post a spreadsheet), pm me. I have data for each V100 firm in each of those cities, so long as it was on NALP.

[JusticeHarlan]

I used NALP data for the V100 firms. These numbers reflect the percentage of offers made to the 2009 SA class. I only calculated numbers for five markets (NYC, DC, SF, Chi, LA). I will do Boston later.

NYC - 88%
DC - 81%
SF - 78%
Chicago - 77%
LA - 79%

The numbers for cross-sections of the Vault100 nationwide are as follows:

V5 - 99%
V10 - 97%
V25 - 92%
V50 - 89%
V100 - 84%

Obviously the data cannot capture the situation in each city perfectly, but they seem to reflect my assumptions pretty accurately.

Thanks for the data here (would love to see Boston, when you get a chance).

Forgive a 0L for asking a stupid question, but is the offer rate a considered a decent proxy for the relative strengths of a give market (or set of firms, if looking at offer rate by Vault echelon)?

[como]

I used NALP data for the V100 firms. These numbers reflect the percentage of offers made to the 2009 SA class. I only calculated numbers for five markets (NYC, DC, SF, Chi, LA). I will do Boston later.

NYC - 88%
DC - 81%
SF - 78%
Chicago - 77%
LA - 79%

The numbers for cross-sections of the Vault100 nationwide are as follows:

V5 - 99%
V10 - 97%
V25 - 92%
V50 - 89%
V100 - 84%

Obviously the data cannot capture the situation in each city perfectly, but they seem to reflect my assumptions pretty accurately.

Thanks for the data here (would love to see Boston, when you get a chance).

Forgive a 0L for asking a stupid question, but is the offer rate a considered a decent proxy for the relative strengths of a give market (or set of firms, if looking at offer rate by Vault echelon)?

It might be a better proxy for which markets were hit the hardest initially. However, there are all sorts of ways to interpret the future using these numbers. It could be that the markets that held onto most of their classes were too liberal and now have too many employees. It could be that those offices have the most work (and projected work), so they hold onto the most people. It's hard to say for sure based on the numbers alone. However, you can get a better picture by considering other market indicators.

[JusticeHarlan]

Thanks como, that makes sense.

[lawschoollll]

Balancing that, Kurama, is that all the hiring data I've seen points to NYC firms going deeper into Penn's class than into UVA/Michigan's.

this is commonly assumed to be true around these parts.

ALSO, since it appears ppl might have forgotten about recent NLJ250 placement statistics, here!

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

OK, forgive me because I always mix up the years, but: does the latest NALP data (linked above) show the percentage of a school's class that was placed into full-time associate jobs for class of 2009 (OCI 2007, SA 2008, c/o 2009)? Is this data inclusive of no-offers at the end of summer '08?

Also, anyone know when the new NALP figures are released?

[98234872348]

great post, como

[markymark]

I'd imagine it sounds worse than it is. Penn is an NYC-focused school. Their OCI will consist mostly of V100 firms and their major-market offices. They're not going to have a large number of secondary-market offices like UVA/Michigan, which traditionally spread out their graduates.

If someone with the data could comment on this it would be helpful. If you could come up with some sort of approximate breakdown between NYC, Philly/Wilmington, DC, etc. I'll love you forever and pay you 100 internets.

APPROXIMATE NUMBERS

total: 242 offices
new york offices: 81
DC: 57
Philly: 19
California offices: 31

Does this consider the off-site, Penn only regional interviews (Miami, Denver, LA, SF, SV, Chicago). Those are basically OCI (in fact, probably better than OCI because if you are interested in those cities, you are basically guaranteed those interviews and they don't cut into your bidding for the main event).

[darkarmour]

Does this consider the off-site, Penn only regional interviews (Miami, Denver, LA, SF, SV, Chicago). Those are basically OCI (in fact, probably better than OCI because if you are interested in those cities, you are basically guaranteed those interviews and they don't cut into your bidding for the main event).

NOPE. The numbers do not encompass the regional interview program (which, as markymark states, is very much like OCI).

In light of that point, here's updated figure for PENN LAW OCI 2010, inclusive of the regional interview program.

new numbers (not including resume drops):

139 UNIQUES
281 OFFICES

misc: 51 RESUME DROPS