Fall bonuses Forum

[Joachim2017]

This is exactly what many of us said would and should happen to the legal industry. A huge number of firms constantly auto-matching and falling lockstep behind market leaders on pay is not rational behavior. Contrary to the intro paragraph of the Vault page of like 50 law firms, not every firm is "elite" and not every firm "takes only the very best and brightest" from "only the top law schools."

There really is a gap between firms like Davis Polk or S&C, on the one hand, and Arnold & Porter or Kramer Levin or whatever, on the other. Firms like Cravath need to decide which side they fall on, but it's healthy and rational, from a business perspective, for there to be further separation among firms along metrics like pay and bonus. Not everyone can be a DPW, and masking that behind lockstep market-conforming compensation only obfuscates reality.

It sucks for associates at lower tier firms, obviously, but having the expectation that things would be otherwise is setting yourself up for disappointment sooner or later.

The flip side of all this is that firms should absolutely not be able to get away with saying things like "we are an elite firm" or "compensation leaders" or whatever. And that applies to Cravath. This isn't 1995. No one can ride on their name forever. Hold everyone accountable to their own reality.

[Anonymous User]

"In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing."

[cisscum]

What a joke.

[Anonymous User]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

[NoLongerALurker]

CravaTTTh joining the cheese plate club.

[Anonymous User]

CravaTTTh joining the cheese plate club.

Skadden will surely follow.

[Anonymous User]

People at Cravath are livid.

[Anonymous User]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

At PW. Suspect we’ll do the same thing now. Heard from a few partners that this was their preference. At this point I wouldn’t really mind waiting in case CSM beats the scale by a bit in December just in time for January OCI

[NoLongerALurker]

CravaTTTh joining the cheese plate club.

Skadden will surely follow.

I thought Skadden was the founding member of the cheese plate club. No need for them to follow.

[Popopo2019]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

At PW. Suspect we’ll do the same thing now. Heard from a few partners that this was their preference. At this point I wouldn’t really mind waiting in case CSM beats the scale by a bit.

They prefer to show how little they appreciate their associates relative to (some of) their competitors and you’re ok with that?

[Auxilio]

I completely get why firms would just roll this into later bonuses etc.

But god damn if it isn't disappointing for us 1200 hour track people.

[Ultramar vistas]

Understand that people want their money now, but got to look at the long game. I’d much rather any increased bonuses this year get baked into the standard end of year bonus, because that’s more likely to be sticky year-on-year.

Summer bonuses didn’t re-occur, sadly. But if the Cravath bonus scale goes up by a good amount, I’d take that over a bonus 2 months earlier that is framed as a special bonus, every single time.

[Anonymous User]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

At PW. Suspect we’ll do the same thing now. Heard from a few partners that this was their preference. At this point I wouldn’t really mind waiting in case CSM beats the scale by a bit.

They prefer to show how little they appreciate their associates relative to (some of) their competitors and you’re ok with that?

Apparently some clients saw the news and reacted poorly to it - I know i know it doesn’t make a lot of sense given high partner profits and such but clients will react how they want. Was told that partners don’t have a problem with the dollar amount, just had some concerns abt the optics. Would obviously have preferred to get the money sooner but I have no doubt that we’ll be trued up so ultimately doesn’t matter whether I get it October or December.

[Popopo2019]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

At PW. Suspect we’ll do the same thing now. Heard from a few partners that this was their preference. At this point I wouldn’t really mind waiting in case CSM beats the scale by a bit.

They prefer to show how little they appreciate their associates relative to (some of) their competitors and you’re ok with that?

Apparently some clients saw the news and reacted poorly to it - I know i know it doesn’t make a lot of sense given high partner profits and such but clients will react how they want. Was told that partners don’t have a problem with the dollar amount, just had some concerns abt the optics. Would obviously have preferred to get the money sooner but I have no doubt that we’ll be trued up so ultimately doesn’t matter whether I get it October or December.

You have more faith than I do in boomer partners at any firm. Economic slowdown because of second COVID wave and clients don’t want to pay/work dries up, you really think they’re going to true you up?

[Joachim2017]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

At PW. Suspect we’ll do the same thing now. Heard from a few partners that this was their preference. At this point I wouldn’t really mind waiting in case CSM beats the scale by a bit.

They prefer to show how little they appreciate their associates relative to (some of) their competitors and you’re ok with that?

Apparently some clients saw the news and reacted poorly to it - I know i know it doesn’t make a lot of sense given high partner profits and such but clients will react how they want. Was told that partners don’t have a problem with the dollar amount, just had some concerns abt the optics. Would obviously have preferred to get the money sooner but I have no doubt that we’ll be trued up so ultimately doesn’t matter whether I get it October or December.

You have more faith than I do in boomer partners at any firm. Economic slowdown because of second COVID wave and clients don’t want to pay/work dries up, you really think they’re going to true you up?

No, I doubt it'll be a true-up in the winter because if Cravath slightly raises in Dec/Jan, firms that gave fall bonuses like DPW and S&C will match that. So if the peers across from you are in that category, you're still coming up short.

[JusticeSquee]

Pack it up boys, the dream is dead.

[NoLongerALurker]

Just lol at all the KE, Cravath, Skadden and Latham people who laughed at Freshfields and Shearman at OCI and now wish they were there though.

[JusticeSquee]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

At PW. Suspect we’ll do the same thing now. Heard from a few partners that this was their preference. At this point I wouldn’t really mind waiting in case CSM beats the scale by a bit.

They prefer to show how little they appreciate their associates relative to (some of) their competitors and you’re ok with that?

Apparently some clients saw the news and reacted poorly to it - I know i know it doesn’t make a lot of sense given high partner profits and such but clients will react how they want. Was told that partners don’t have a problem with the dollar amount, just had some concerns abt the optics. Would obviously have preferred to get the money sooner but I have no doubt that we’ll be trued up so ultimately doesn’t matter whether I get it October or December.

Please stfu about client perception. It is a stupid take and a false narrative. Clients don’t give a fuck about what associates are paid. Clients give a fuck about what they are charged. Rates will go up next year regardless of whether or not these bonuses are paid out. Boomer partners are just being greedy fucks because destroying the planet and perma-fucking the economy apparently wasn’t enough for them.

[Anonymous User]

This is exactly what many of us said would and should happen to the legal industry. A huge number of firms constantly auto-matching and falling lockstep behind market leaders on pay is not rational behavior. Contrary to the intro paragraph of the Vault page of like 50 law firms, not every firm is "elite" and not every firm "takes only the very best and brightest" from "only the top law schools."

There really is a gap between firms like Davis Polk or S&C, on the one hand, and Arnold & Porter or Kramer Levin or whatever, on the other. Firms like Cravath need to decide which side they fall on, but it's healthy and rational, from a business perspective, for there to be further separation among firms along metrics like pay and bonus. Not everyone can be a DPW, and masking that behind lockstep market-conforming compensation only obfuscates reality.

It sucks for associates at lower tier firms, obviously, but having the expectation that things would be otherwise is setting yourself up for disappointment sooner or later.

The flip side of all this is that firms should absolutely not be able to get away with saying things like "we are an elite firm" or "compensation leaders" or whatever. And that applies to Cravath. This isn't 1995. No one can ride on their name forever. Hold everyone accountable to their own reality.

As someone from K&E, I always kind of knew that the S&Cs, Debevoises, etc. viewed me as lower-tier and not in their league, despite vault ranking, but nice that K&E confirmed that and removed all doubt this fall. But lol at Cravath telling their associates they are 2nd tier.

[NoLongerALurker]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

At PW. Suspect we’ll do the same thing now. Heard from a few partners that this was their preference. At this point I wouldn’t really mind waiting in case CSM beats the scale by a bit.

They prefer to show how little they appreciate their associates relative to (some of) their competitors and you’re ok with that?

Apparently some clients saw the news and reacted poorly to it - I know i know it doesn’t make a lot of sense given high partner profits and such but clients will react how they want. Was told that partners don’t have a problem with the dollar amount, just had some concerns abt the optics. Would obviously have preferred to get the money sooner but I have no doubt that we’ll be trued up so ultimately doesn’t matter whether I get it October or December.

Please stfu about client perception. It is a stupid take and a false narrative. Clients don’t give a fuck about what associates are paid. Clients give a fuck about what they are charged. Rates will go up next year regardless of whether or not these bonuses are paid out. Boomer partners are just being greedy fucks because destroying the planet and perma-fucking the economy apparently wasn’t enough for them.

+1. Absolute garbage to even lend a second of credence to such a bullshit excuse.

[Man from Nantucket]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

At PW. Suspect we’ll do the same thing now. Heard from a few partners that this was their preference. At this point I wouldn’t really mind waiting in case CSM beats the scale by a bit.

They prefer to show how little they appreciate their associates relative to (some of) their competitors and you’re ok with that?

Apparently some clients saw the news and reacted poorly to it - I know i know it doesn’t make a lot of sense given high partner profits and such but clients will react how they want. Was told that partners don’t have a problem with the dollar amount, just had some concerns abt the optics. Would obviously have preferred to get the money sooner but I have no doubt that we’ll be trued up so ultimately doesn’t matter whether I get it October or December.

Found the Cravath partner.

[legalpotato]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

At PW. Suspect we’ll do the same thing now. Heard from a few partners that this was their preference. At this point I wouldn’t really mind waiting in case CSM beats the scale by a bit.

They prefer to show how little they appreciate their associates relative to (some of) their competitors and you’re ok with that?

Apparently some clients saw the news and reacted poorly to it - I know i know it doesn’t make a lot of sense given high partner profits and such but clients will react how they want. Was told that partners don’t have a problem with the dollar amount, just had some concerns abt the optics. Would obviously have preferred to get the money sooner but I have no doubt that we’ll be trued up so ultimately doesn’t matter whether I get it October or December.

Please stfu about client perception. It is a stupid take and a false narrative. Clients don’t give a fuck about what associates are paid. Clients give a fuck about what they are charged. Rates will go up next year regardless of whether or not these bonuses are paid out. Boomer partners are just being greedy fucks because destroying the planet and perma-fucking the economy apparently wasn’t enough for them.

This. Either the ppl pusing this are bootlickers, dumb, or partners literally trying to spread a false narrative to trick the dumb/bootlickers. If you are in a v20 that said no bonuses, it is 100% about partner greed and you should be furious.

[Ultramar vistas]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

At PW. Suspect we’ll do the same thing now. Heard from a few partners that this was their preference. At this point I wouldn’t really mind waiting in case CSM beats the scale by a bit.

They prefer to show how little they appreciate their associates relative to (some of) their competitors and you’re ok with that?

Apparently some clients saw the news and reacted poorly to it - I know i know it doesn’t make a lot of sense given high partner profits and such but clients will react how they want. Was told that partners don’t have a problem with the dollar amount, just had some concerns abt the optics. Would obviously have preferred to get the money sooner but I have no doubt that we’ll be trued up so ultimately doesn’t matter whether I get it October or December.

Please stfu about client perception. It is a stupid take and a false narrative. Clients don’t give a fuck about what associates are paid. Clients give a fuck about what they are charged. Rates will go up next year regardless of whether or not these bonuses are paid out. Boomer partners are just being greedy fucks because destroying the planet and perma-fucking the economy apparently wasn’t enough for them.

So weirdly angry.

If 100% of partners that I know and trust have the same take (delaying payment is about managing client perceptions), and I (and others, clearly) faithfully report that on these boards, don’t get mad about it. Just passing on what I’m told, from people with very little reason to lie given how furious we’ll be in December if it turns out to have been a smokescreen.

[daedalus2309]

Apparently some clients saw the news and reacted poorly to it - I know i know it doesn’t make a lot of sense given high partner profits and such but clients will react how they want. Was told that partners don’t have a problem with the dollar amount, just had some concerns abt the optics. Would obviously have preferred to get the money sooner but I have no doubt that we’ll be trued up so ultimately doesn’t matter whether I get it October or December.

Please stfu about client perception. It is a stupid take and a false narrative. Clients don’t give a fuck about what associates are paid. Clients give a fuck about what they are charged. Rates will go up next year regardless of whether or not these bonuses are paid out. Boomer partners are just being greedy fucks because destroying the planet and perma-fucking the economy apparently wasn’t enough for them.

+1. Absolute garbage to even lend a second of credence to such a bullshit excuse.

Not to pile on the guy quoted above (who I think is just the messenger here) but literally lol at the idea that client perception or client difficulty is keeping CSM, Skadden, etc from matching. Pull up the SP 500 and then tell me with a straight face that these firms’ major clients are hurting.

[Joachim2017]

Two-sentence message: “In light of recent announcements from some law firms, we confirm that we will be determining 2020 bonuses in the fourth quarter in accordance with our customary timing.”

Second sentence is essentially “thank u for your service”

At PW. Suspect we’ll do the same thing now. Heard from a few partners that this was their preference. At this point I wouldn’t really mind waiting in case CSM beats the scale by a bit.

They prefer to show how little they appreciate their associates relative to (some of) their competitors and you’re ok with that?

Apparently some clients saw the news and reacted poorly to it - I know i know it doesn’t make a lot of sense given high partner profits and such but clients will react how they want. Was told that partners don’t have a problem with the dollar amount, just had some concerns abt the optics. Would obviously have preferred to get the money sooner but I have no doubt that we’ll be trued up so ultimately doesn’t matter whether I get it October or December.

Please stfu about client perception. It is a stupid take and a false narrative. Clients don’t give a fuck about what associates are paid. Clients give a fuck about what they are charged. Rates will go up next year regardless of whether or not these bonuses are paid out. Boomer partners are just being greedy fucks because destroying the planet and perma-fucking the economy apparently wasn’t enough for them.

So weirdly angry.

If 100% of partners that I know and trust have the same take (delaying payment is about managing client perceptions), and I (and others, clearly) faithfully report that on these boards, don’t get mad about it. Just passing on what I’m told, from people with very little reason to lie given how furious we’ll be in December if it turns out to have been a smokescreen.

The way to look at it seems to be: if you're the firm, you can more easily negotiate rates or collections with the client if you DON'T have to tell them you're giving your associates a bonus in the middle of a pandemic. It's true that the client ultimately just cares about the rate, but the rate is asked for and agreed to, and in that horse trading, it will help the firm to be able to say that the rate is based on XYZ, where XYZ doesn't have to involve also justifying more money for associates. Is that in fact how the negotiations with clients on rates and collections works? I don't know. If there are people who do lurking, would love to hear about it.