Tracking COVID-19's effect on V100 associate pay/layoffs Forum

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know how much truth is in the rumors of heavy attrition at Baker Botts?

Interested in BB as well

Current BB associate. I think most of the departures during COVID have been people who other firms would have pushed out earlier. In my experience, we hardly ever asked people to leave (including people who I assumed had been pushed out). If you did good work, you could bill 1700-1800 and stick around indefinitely. I'm currently very busy and think most other associates are busy as well.

Thank you for this. Any word on whether the pay cuts that were originally marked through July will be extended?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know how much truth is in the rumors of heavy attrition at Baker Botts?

Interested in BB as well

Current BB associate. I think most of the departures during COVID have been people who other firms would have pushed out earlier. In my experience, we hardly ever asked people to leave (including people who I assumed had been pushed out). If you did good work, you could bill 1700-1800 and stick around indefinitely. I'm currently very busy and think most other associates are busy as well.

Thank you for this. Any word on whether the pay cuts that were originally marked through July will be extended?

Nothing definitive yet, but I'm cautiously optimistic that they won't be.

[Anonymous User]

How are things at S&C? Speaking as a 2021 grad who was extended a "guaranteed offer" but am concerned that if the 2020 class is pushed back then the 2021 class will ultimately suffer.

Places like S&C aren't going to screw incoming associates or summers. That's the whole schtick of being an elite white shoe law firm. Class of 2021 will be fine.

They were the only elite firm to slash their summer associates pay in half, so I can see why the Class of 2021 isn't feeling particularly secure.

True, but on the other hand, there was no summer program locking anyone down to not do anything else. And unlike Latham, Gibson Dunn, PW, and Simpson, S&C guaranteed offers, which they didn't have to do. I'm just trying to balance things here and come to an informed conclusion about how at-risk it is.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know how much truth is in the rumors of heavy attrition at Baker Botts?

Interested in BB as well

Current BB associate. I think most of the departures during COVID have been people who other firms would have pushed out earlier. In my experience, we hardly ever asked people to leave (including people who I assumed had been pushed out). If you did good work, you could bill 1700-1800 and stick around indefinitely. I'm currently very busy and think most other associates are busy as well.

Thank you for this. Any word on whether the pay cuts that were originally marked through July will be extended?

Nothing definitive yet, but I'm cautiously optimistic that they won't be.

Are you going to look if they don’t?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know how much truth is in the rumors of heavy attrition at Baker Botts?

Interested in BB as well

Current BB associate. I think most of the departures during COVID have been people who other firms would have pushed out earlier. In my experience, we hardly ever asked people to leave (including people who I assumed had been pushed out). If you did good work, you could bill 1700-1800 and stick around indefinitely. I'm currently very busy and think most other associates are busy as well.

Thank you for this. Any word on whether the pay cuts that were originally marked through July will be extended?

Nothing definitive yet, but I'm cautiously optimistic that they won't be.

I don't mean to put you on the spot, but, with everything going on, would you recommend BB to a 2L looking to stay in TX?

[Winter is Coming]

I'm not trying to be a dick here but there is this weird beating around the bush thing with discussions about firms in this thread. We are in a situation where about 50% of the top law firms in this country could not cover one month of salary expenses for there associates.

Think about that.Think about what the numbers must look like if they have to start skimming 10k off the top from associates, and how much worse it will get.

There are plenty of firms (I think the whole V20?) that didn't cut, if you have options you shouldn't be considering firms who are so over leveraged that they can't handle one slow month.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not trying to be a dick here but there is this weird beating around the bush thing with discussions about firms in this thread. We are in a situation where about 50% of the top law firms in this country could not cover one month of salary expenses for there associates.

Think about that.Think about what the numbers must look like if they have to start skimming 10k off the top from associates, and how much worse it will get.

There are plenty of firms (I think the whole V20?) that didn't cut, if you have options you shouldn't be considering firms who are so over leveraged that they can't handle one slow month.

They are already skimming like 5k off the top a month from my salary. It’s bad when they are doing this yet haven’t lowered the end of year expectations and your hours have not slowed down.

It’s like take the pay cut so that Joe in corporate won’t get laid off. Now work 200+ a month, have no weekends, and be thankful. We as partners reduced our draws. But I know you associates don’t know how our comp works so we are just delaying getting paid. You will never get the money back. As an FYI, Joe is no longer with the firm. We laid him off along with 20 to 30 other associates. You’ll see it on top law schools or above the law because we are so transparent.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not trying to be a dick here but there is this weird beating around the bush thing with discussions about firms in this thread. We are in a situation where about 50% of the top law firms in this country could not cover one month of salary expenses for there associates.

Think about that.Think about what the numbers must look like if they have to start skimming 10k off the top from associates, and how much worse it will get.

There are plenty of firms (I think the whole V20?) that didn't cut, if you have options you shouldn't be considering firms who are so over leveraged that they can't handle one slow month.

They are already skimming like 5k off the top a month from my salary. It’s bad when they are doing this yet haven’t lowered the end of year expectations and your hours have not slowed down.

It’s like take the pay cut so that Joe in corporate won’t get laid off. Now work 200+ a month, have no weekends, and be thankful. We as partners reduced our draws. But I know you associates don’t know how our comp works so we are just delaying getting paid. You will never get the money back. As an FYI, Joe is no longer with the firm. We laid him off along with 20 to 30 other associates. You’ll see it on top law schools or above the law because we are so transparent.

Is this description actually accurate on average? I know some firms/groups/associates must be still busy (maybe even busy as ever) but arent most slower? It seems like every other person who posts on tls seem busy/slammed and frustrated that there have been paycuts but I have been definitely slower and others I've talked to as well. Sure - some firms are probably taking advantage of the current market situation to reduce cost (i.e. pay cuts/layoff) even when they are generating enough revenue not do so but I have a hard time believing most firms are doing this and forcing associates to bill more than ever.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not trying to be a dick here but there is this weird beating around the bush thing with discussions about firms in this thread. We are in a situation where about 50% of the top law firms in this country could not cover one month of salary expenses for there associates.

Think about that.Think about what the numbers must look like if they have to start skimming 10k off the top from associates, and how much worse it will get.

There are plenty of firms (I think the whole V20?) that didn't cut, if you have options you shouldn't be considering firms who are so over leveraged that they can't handle one slow month.

They are already skimming like 5k off the top a month from my salary. It’s bad when they are doing this yet haven’t lowered the end of year expectations and your hours have not slowed down.

It’s like take the pay cut so that Joe in corporate won’t get laid off. Now work 200+ a month, have no weekends, and be thankful. We as partners reduced our draws. But I know you associates don’t know how our comp works so we are just delaying getting paid. You will never get the money back. As an FYI, Joe is no longer with the firm. We laid him off along with 20 to 30 other associates. You’ll see it on top law schools or above the law because we are so transparent.

Is this description actually accurate on average? I know some firms/groups/associates must be still busy (maybe even busy as ever) but arent most slower? It seems like every other person who posts on tls seem busy/slammed and frustrated that there have been paycuts but I have been definitely slower and others I've talked to as well. Sure - some firms are probably taking advantage of the current market situation to reduce cost (i.e. pay cuts/layoff) even when they are generating enough revenue not do so but I have a hard time believing most firms are doing this and forcing associates to bill more than ever.

If you have the work, you have to do it. It’s not a matter of forcing.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know how much truth is in the rumors of heavy attrition at Baker Botts?

Interested in BB as well

Current BB associate. I think most of the departures during COVID have been people who other firms would have pushed out earlier. In my experience, we hardly ever asked people to leave (including people who I assumed had been pushed out). If you did good work, you could bill 1700-1800 and stick around indefinitely. I'm currently very busy and think most other associates are busy as well.

Thank you for this. Any word on whether the pay cuts that were originally marked through July will be extended?

Nothing definitive yet, but I'm cautiously optimistic that they won't be.

I don't mean to put you on the spot, but, with everything going on, would you recommend BB to a 2L looking to stay in TX?

No offense, but BB cut salaries, deferred incoming first-years to an unspecified date in 2021 with no financial assistance (according to the reddit page tracking firms that have deferred first-years), possibly stealthed associates, and only gave summer associates $10,000. Why would you even consider them? If you have the grades for BB, then (assuming you're in Houston/Dallas and looking at firms in the area) you have the grades to go to V&E, HAK, Bracewell, Fulbright or even Kirkland, Latham, etc.

I really don't see any reason to consider BB when you are likely to have comparable options that have not taken such drastic measures in response to COVID-19.

[blair.waldorf]

I'm not trying to be a dick here but there is this weird beating around the bush thing with discussions about firms in this thread. We are in a situation where about 50% of the top law firms in this country could not cover one month of salary expenses for there associates.

Think about that.Think about what the numbers must look like if they have to start skimming 10k off the top from associates, and how much worse it will get.

There are plenty of firms (I think the whole V20?) that didn't cut, if you have options you shouldn't be considering firms who are so over leveraged that they can't handle one slow month.

Aren't law firms/lawyers some of the most risk averse and fiscally conservative people on the planet? I doubt firms were in a position in March/April where they *HAD* to cut salaries to stay afloat (i.e., they could not handle one slow month). I would guess that salary cuts, deferrals, etc. were a preventative measure--at least in March/April.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know how much truth is in the rumors of heavy attrition at Baker Botts?

Interested in BB as well

Current BB associate. I think most of the departures during COVID have been people who other firms would have pushed out earlier. In my experience, we hardly ever asked people to leave (including people who I assumed had been pushed out). If you did good work, you could bill 1700-1800 and stick around indefinitely. I'm currently very busy and think most other associates are busy as well.

Thank you for this. Any word on whether the pay cuts that were originally marked through July will be extended?

Nothing definitive yet, but I'm cautiously optimistic that they won't be.

I don't mean to put you on the spot, but, with everything going on, would you recommend BB to a 2L looking to stay in TX?

No offense, but BB cut salaries, deferred incoming first-years to an unspecified date in 2021 with no financial assistance (according to the reddit page tracking firms that have deferred first-years), possibly stealthed associates, and only gave summer associates $10,000. Why would you even consider them? If you have the grades for BB, then (assuming you're in Houston/Dallas and looking at firms in the area) you have the grades to go to V&E, HAK, Bracewell, Fulbright or even Kirkland, Latham, etc.

I really don't see any reason to consider BB when you are likely to have comparable options that have not taken such drastic measures in response to COVID-19.

BB anon from above: depending on what your options are, I would probably say to just go to the firm that you liked the best. I really like the people where I work and it makes a big difference. That said, of the firms named above, I think BB is stronger in Lit and IP than basically all of them, and is stronger in corporate than most of them. To the above anon, Bracewell, Fulbright and HAK pay well below market (both salaries and bonus) and have for a long time so it's a little weird to say they're a better choice from a financial/comp perspective. BB historically has paid market salaries and market bonus at 2000 hours and above market bonus starting at 2150 hours. I also think that a lot of other firms in TX were banking on COVID reversing pretty quickly (and used layoffs instead of comp reductions to try to right-size their firms) and that more layoffs could be coming like we saw with Bryan Cave. If Cleary is hurting, most if not all of the above firms are hurting (see leaked Kirkland email aggressively telling everyone in corporate to get on bankruptcy work).

My circumstances are different from a 2L summer but I'm in a very good position where I am. I have good work, a lot of autonomy and am used to negotiating directly with partners at Latham/Kirkland/V&E/W&C while their associates (including NSPs at Kirkland) either aren't on the call at all or aren't allowed to talk. That makes me pretty reluctant to switch to a different firm but we'll see how everything goes. My understanding is that associates billing on a 2000 hour pace are likely to receive additional comp for the months where salary was reduced, so I'm hopeful I won't take much of a financial hit if any.

[Excellent117]

I'm not trying to be a dick here but there is this weird beating around the bush thing with discussions about firms in this thread. We are in a situation where about 50% of the top law firms in this country could not cover one month of salary expenses for there associates.

Think about that.Think about what the numbers must look like if they have to start skimming 10k off the top from associates, and how much worse it will get.

There are plenty of firms (I think the whole V20?) that didn't cut, if you have options you shouldn't be considering firms who are so over leveraged that they can't handle one slow month.

Aren't law firms/lawyers some of the most risk averse and fiscally conservative people on the planet? I doubt firms were in a position in March/April where they *HAD* to cut salaries to stay afloat (i.e., they could not handle one slow month). I would guess that salary cuts, deferrals, etc. were a preventative measure--at least in March/April.

Risk averse, sure, but also frequently financially illiterate, generally poor at managing, and a rampant problem with golden handcuffs.

[Wearthewildthingsr]

Is Greenberg Traurig still the dumpster fire that TLS makes it out to be? Cap markets group? Did they reverse their pay cut yet?

[Spectator]

Is Greenberg Traurig still the dumpster fire that TLS makes it out to be? Cap markets group? Did they reverse their pay cut yet?

Yes, they are still the dumpster fire that TLS makes them out to be.

Besides the ongoing paycuts, they completely ghosted their incoming class.

[Anon115523]

Has any firm that announced paycuts reversed them yet?

[Lacepiece23]

Has any firm that announced paycuts reversed them yet?

Lol.

[Anonymous User]

Has any firm that announced paycuts reversed them yet?

Lol.

I recall seeing an article on ATL of a firm that reduced their salary cuts by half, but I could just be imagining it.

[Anonymous User]

Has any firm that announced paycuts reversed them yet?

Lol.

I recall seeing an article on ATL of a firm that reduced their salary cuts by half, but I could just be imagining it.

Yes, it was Bryan Cave and they coupled that with layoffs.

[Anonymous User]

Interested in BB as well

Current BB associate. I think most of the departures during COVID have been people who other firms would have pushed out earlier. In my experience, we hardly ever asked people to leave (including people who I assumed had been pushed out). If you did good work, you could bill 1700-1800 and stick around indefinitely. I'm currently very busy and think most other associates are busy as well.

Thank you for this. Any word on whether the pay cuts that were originally marked through July will be extended?

Nothing definitive yet, but I'm cautiously optimistic that they won't be.

I don't mean to put you on the spot, but, with everything going on, would you recommend BB to a 2L looking to stay in TX?

No offense, but BB cut salaries, deferred incoming first-years to an unspecified date in 2021 with no financial assistance (according to the reddit page tracking firms that have deferred first-years), possibly stealthed associates, and only gave summer associates $10,000. Why would you even consider them? If you have the grades for BB, then (assuming you're in Houston/Dallas and looking at firms in the area) you have the grades to go to V&E, HAK, Bracewell, Fulbright or even Kirkland, Latham, etc.

I really don't see any reason to consider BB when you are likely to have comparable options that have not taken such drastic measures in response to COVID-19.

BB anon from above: depending on what your options are, I would probably say to just go to the firm that you liked the best. I really like the people where I work and it makes a big difference. That said, of the firms named above, I think BB is stronger in Lit and IP than basically all of them, and is stronger in corporate than most of them. To the above anon, Bracewell, Fulbright and HAK pay well below market (both salaries and bonus) and have for a long time so it's a little weird to say they're a better choice from a financial/comp perspective. BB historically has paid market salaries and market bonus at 2000 hours and above market bonus starting at 2150 hours. I also think that a lot of other firms in TX were banking on COVID reversing pretty quickly (and used layoffs instead of comp reductions to try to right-size their firms) and that more layoffs could be coming like we saw with Bryan Cave. If Cleary is hurting, most if not all of the above firms are hurting (see leaked Kirkland email aggressively telling everyone in corporate to get on bankruptcy work).

My circumstances are different from a 2L summer but I'm in a very good position where I am. I have good work, a lot of autonomy and am used to negotiating directly with partners at Latham/Kirkland/V&E/W&C while their associates (including NSPs at Kirkland) either aren't on the call at all or aren't allowed to talk. That makes me pretty reluctant to switch to a different firm but we'll see how everything goes. My understanding is that associates billing on a 2000 hour pace are likely to receive additional comp for the months where salary was reduced, so I'm hopeful I won't take much of a financial hit if any.

If BB were to raise salaries, they probably have to let associates know today. Or is the plan to make the decision in August?

[Anonymous User]

If BB were to raise salaries, they probably have to let associates know today. Or is the plan to make the decision in August?

The paycheck on ~7/31 is for July 15-31 so they don't need to make the decision until early August.

[Anonymous User]

How long do people expect these paycuts to stay in place? I hear st least until September but how likely is it that this will be the end of this disaster?

[Anonymous User]

SullCrom layed out ~50 staff. Rather supprised given their super high PPP.

[unlicensedpotato]

SullCrom layed out ~50 staff. Rather supprised given their super high PPP.

ATL really twisting the knife by describing S&C as a "Top 20 Am Law Firm"

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/07/layoffs ... -law-firm/

[Anon115523]

SullCrom layed out ~50 staff. Rather supprised given their super high PPP.

ATL really twisting the knife by describing S&C as a "Top 20 Am Law Firm"

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/07/layoffs ... -law-firm/

We OwN oUr OwN bUiLdInG and yet S&C fucks over their summer class by paying them significantly less than many v50s and has to cut staff. Amazing when you consider their PPP is $4.6 million. Seriously, how greedy can you be?