The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[Pretzel_Logic]

It's....really low. Like, I'd have to have my parents funnel me money it's so low.

I know it wouldn't be forever and it's not even an offer yet, but

[Bikeflip]

One thing I've noticed on jerb websites is that people love having a lawyer with a year plus experience. If you get good experience, you've got a shot on the lateral market.

[BarbellDreams]

Truth be told the lateral market starts at 2 years for the vast majority of jobs and at 3 years you truly have expansion options. Junior In House counsel also typically will be considered at 3 years which opens up an entirely new field of applications as well.

[Bikeflip]

Fair point. I'm just trying to lie to myself a bit after seeing a bunch of 3-5 prs exp preferred jerbs.

[whatsyourdeal]

About a year experience and the lateral market opens up a good deal.

4 months in to my clerk/associate gig, I was getting a lot of bites. Most of the jobs I interviewed for were of the "2-3 years of experience" variety.

I can only speak based on my own experience, but I was told by various interviewers that my steady employment gaining substantive experience was the primary reason I was able to interview, despite my limited years of experience. Each spot I applied to, I was facing applicants with 2+ years of experience (hence the many dings I received). My current job that I was offered, the listing requested 2+ years of experience in a niche that I didn't come close to having.

I was told by recruiters and attorneys that if a listing says anywhere from 1-4 years, there is a chance even if you do not possess the actual years of experience. Anything of 5+, don't bother.

[Bikeflip]

About a year experience and the lateral market opens up a good deal.

4 months in to my clerk/associate gig, I was getting a lot of bites. Most of the jobs I interviewed for were of the "2-3 years of experience" variety.

I can only speak based on my own experience, but I was told by various interviewers that my steady employment gaining substantive experience was the primary reason I was able to interview, despite my limited years of experience. Each spot I applied to, I was facing applicants with 2+ years of experience (hence the many dings I received). My current job that I was offered, the listing requested 2+ years of experience in a niche that I didn't come close to having.

I was told by recruiters and attorneys that if a listing says anywhere from 1-4 years, there is a chance even if you do not possess the actual years of experience. Anything of 5+, don't bother.

What substantive experience did you have at the time if you don't mind me asking? Also, how big a firm? Not trying to be snotty, but I am trying to copy you.

[whatsyourdeal]

About a year experience and the lateral market opens up a good deal.

4 months in to my clerk/associate gig, I was getting a lot of bites. Most of the jobs I interviewed for were of the "2-3 years of experience" variety.

I can only speak based on my own experience, but I was told by various interviewers that my steady employment gaining substantive experience was the primary reason I was able to interview, despite my limited years of experience. Each spot I applied to, I was facing applicants with 2+ years of experience (hence the many dings I received). My current job that I was offered, the listing requested 2+ years of experience in a niche that I didn't come close to having.

I was told by recruiters and attorneys that if a listing says anywhere from 1-4 years, there is a chance even if you do not possess the actual years of experience. Anything of 5+, don't bother.

What substantive experience did you have at the time if you don't mind me asking? Also, how big a firm? Not trying to be snotty, but I am trying to copy you.

No offense taken.

I got a law clerk gig prior to receiving bar results last May (Dec grad). It was at a personal injury solo practitioner. Upon getting licensed, I was able to make appearances in court.

Substantive experience: Discovery, law and motion, brief writing, court appearances, defending depositions, mediation conferences, correspondence writing, client intake, court filing, drafting pleadings.

I lateralled to a small boutique firm that does not deal with a lot if litigation. I interviewed at a few small, mid sized and big insurance defense firms.

[mr. wednesday]

It seems to be that there are three stages of post-grad hiring, with each opening more options: pre-bar, which is the most limited but has some government or legal services advantages; licensed with no experience, which opens doors at smaller places that can't afford to gamble pre-bar; and any amount licensed experience. There will always be jobs that require 2 years or 5 years or whatever but if you've passed the bar and are doing anything as a lawyer, you can definitely apply to 1-3 year experience requested positions.

From people I've spoken to, they started getting more call backs after bar results came out and a few landed positions after volunteering for 1 month - 6 months at local government offices.

[Anonymous User]

if you failed the bar, and applied to a govt job, is that an automatic ding?

I failed NY

Sorry about the test results man. As far as the auto-ding, It depends. I know my Gov gig requires that I pass within 18 months after starting, so I could fail a few times and still be ok.

[a male human]

Truly sorry to hear about your laptop, spleenworship.


If I want to get in touch with two firm partners I met at the same time:

Should I should send two individual emails (hard to send tailored content since all three of us were there and talking about the same things) instead of emailing the first-named partner and CCing the other?

If so, should I mention in each email that I am also contacting the other partner? For example, "I'm also letting John Smith know of..." In case they decide to talk about my email, I don't want them to feel like I was sneaking around.

[Lwoods]

For PI-focused recent grads, specifically animal lovers, who live / want to live in Northern California, the Animal Legal Defense Fund is looking for a fellow at their headquarters in Cotati.

Click here for more information. (two year fellowship, $39k plus benefits)

[BarbellDreams]

Truly sorry to hear about your laptop, spleenworship.


If I want to get in touch with two firm partners I met at the same time:

Should I should send two individual emails (hard to send tailored content since all three of us were there and talking about the same things) instead of emailing the first-named partner and CCing the other?

If so, should I mention in each email that I am also contacting the other partner? For example, "I'm also letting John Smith know of..." In case they decide to talk about my email, I don't want them to feel like I was sneaking around.

What in the world would they think you're sneaking around about? Are you just sending a thank you email or something? If so, just send two separate emails and while you should make sure they aren't word-for-word identical, they can certainly be the same idea with some sentences switched around or whatever.

[Anonymous User]

So a bout of self-loathing, but does anyone here feel like he/she is in the vale because they're just didn't do well enough in law school? Is being in the top 15%...granted at a T2...but a respected one in its region....really so low of a rank that I am just utterly unemployable? There are about 20 or so kids at my school who got coveted big law jobs out of a class of 220 so it was possible to be employed coming out of here but did I really need to be that high ranked? I mention big law because outside of a clerkship or government how else are we getting employed?

Is being in the top 15% at a t2 really the equivalent of bottom 2% of a tier 1 or the equivalent of being a lepper?!! Sorry for the rant. Just needed to vent and felt like my fellow valers would be sympathetic. Thanks for keeping this going...I read it everyday day...helps me get through this crappy time as an unemployed 3L.

[a male human]

Truly sorry to hear about your laptop, spleenworship.


If I want to get in touch with two firm partners I met at the same time:

Should I should send two individual emails (hard to send tailored content since all three of us were there and talking about the same things) instead of emailing the first-named partner and CCing the other?

If so, should I mention in each email that I am also contacting the other partner? For example, "I'm also letting John Smith know of..." In case they decide to talk about my email, I don't want them to feel like I was sneaking around.

What in the world would they think you're sneaking around about? Are you just sending a thank you email or something? If so, just send two separate emails and while you should make sure they aren't word-for-word identical, they can certainly be the same idea with some sentences switched around or whatever.

It's not an email aimed to thank them. It's more of a "don't forget I exist" follow-up kind of email. I guess I'll vary some words or something and send two emails.

I get paranoid when I deal with firm people, so I somehow got worried about sneaking around in case there was some etiquette about this. Thanks.

[BarbellDreams]

So a bout of self-loathing, but does anyone here feel like he/she is in the vale because they're just didn't do well enough in law school? Is being in the top 15%...granted at a T2...but a respected one in its region....really so low of a rank that I am just utterly unemployable? There are about 20 or so kids at my school who got coveted big law jobs out of a class of 220 so it was possible to be employed coming out of here but did I really need to be that high ranked? I mention big law because outside of a clerkship or government how else are we getting employed?

Is being in the top 15% at a t2 really the equivalent of bottom 2% of a tier 1 or the equivalent of being a lepper?!! Sorry for the rant. Just needed to vent and felt like my fellow valers would be sympathetic. Thanks for keeping this going...I read it everyday day...helps me get through this crappy time as an unemployed 3L.

I was around top 15% (estimated cause school doesn't rank) coming out of a T2 and didn't have a job. Many of my friends who had worse grades, did no clinics, had no journal/mock trial, and sat around all semester instead of clerking during the year to beef up the resume still got jobs, some got very good jobs. Its not about you per se, its about luck. One of my friends got a job by mass mailing a firm the day two partners happen to discuss how much work they had and needed to hire someone else. If she mass mailed them 2 weeks before they would have deleted her resume and forgot about her. Another friend got a job cause our mock trial coach was a partner at a firm and literally said whoever can get their resume to him the fastest can have a job during our practice once. The idea that 75% of jobs aren't posted is entirely true. When small firms want to hire someone they usually just ask fellow attorneys around the area. If you happen to stumble on one of those jobs that isn't posted its basically yours to lose cause you're the only one interviewing for it. In contrast, when you apply for a symplicity or craigslist posting its you and at least 50 other people, and thats best case scenario.

Its all a numbers game. Sometimes opportunity literally knocks on the door when you are doing nothing and are below median and other times you gotta put in a lot of effort even if you're strong on paper. The best thing you can do as a 3L is the following: 1.) Apply to small firms to work as a part time law clerk, many times this will lead to either permanent employment or at least a permanent la clerk position while you wait. 2.) Meet people. A lot. Email for informational interviews, talk to your professors, talk to people in public places, etc. Trust me, its 100 times more awkward to do an informational interview when you're an unemployed graduate than when you're still in school. 3.) Take practical classes. No one cares that you took Business Organizations. People care if you did a clinic where you actually presented motions, negotiated with opposing counsel and did administrative hearings. 4.) Try to do one of those oral advocacy competitions and put time into it. Saying you were a competitor is worthless, saying on your resume that you were a finalist/semifinalist is something that may raise an eyebrow. 4.) Don't stop at symplicity and craigslist. Look for other sites, spend time playing aroun with keywords on symplyhired, look through BYU's job bank and many different schools), etc. Sit down and map out where you'd be willing to work (location-wise) and expand your search. The beauty for 3L's is that you haven't signed up for the bar yet so you can technically apply to anywhere as an entry level attorney. Don't be picky here, you're at the end of the rope. 5.) Mass mail. A friend of mine got a biglaw vault firm (yes, seriously) position as a 3L in the spring from mass mailing. Its obviously a 1% chance, but you never know when a budget could open up or a person could withdraw from the accepted offer.

Finally, and most importantly: Keep your head up. Around this time two years ago I worked for a nice firm with a good salary in a cushy office and guarantees of an offer. That all ended with about a 5 minute conversation one day due to budget reasons. I then picked up 2 more offers during 3L that were both rescinded (one due to budget and another due to satellite office they hired me for not opening). It sucks, and sometimes I think that my luck can't be any worse. But life comes in stripes, and you just gotta keep pushing. Every day you don't look for something, meet with someone or mass mail is a day other people are doing it and getting ahead of you. Drink 8 cups of coffee a day if you need to, but you absolutely need to keep pushing. All you need is one offer, and while nothing can ever guarantee anything, you're at least setting yourself up with the best possible scenario you can get.

[rad lulz]

So a bout of self-loathing, but does anyone here feel like he/she is in the vale because they're just didn't do well enough in law school? Is being in the top 15%...granted at a T2...but a respected one in its region....really so low of a rank that I am just utterly unemployable? There are about 20 or so kids at my school who got coveted big law jobs out of a class of 220 so it was possible to be employed coming out of here but did I really need to be that high ranked? I mention big law because outside of a clerkship or government how else are we getting employed?

Is being in the top 15% at a t2 really the equivalent of bottom 2% of a tier 1 or the equivalent of being a lepper?!! Sorry for the rant. Just needed to vent and felt like my fellow valers would be sympathetic. Thanks for keeping this going...I read it everyday day...helps me get through this crappy time as an unemployed 3L.

I was around top 15% (estimated cause school doesn't rank) coming out of a T2 and didn't have a job. Many of my friends who had worse grades, did no clinics, had no journal/mock trial, and sat around all semester instead of clerking during the year to beef up the resume still got jobs, some got very good jobs. Its not about you per se, its about luck. One of my friends got a job by mass mailing a firm the day two partners happen to discuss how much work they had and needed to hire someone else. If she mass mailed them 2 weeks before they would have deleted her resume and forgot about her. Another friend got a job cause our mock trial coach was a partner at a firm and literally said whoever can get their resume to him the fastest can have a job during our practice once. The idea that 75% of jobs aren't posted is entirely true. When small firms want to hire someone they usually just ask fellow attorneys around the area. If you happen to stumble on one of those jobs that isn't posted its basically yours to lose cause you're the only one interviewing for it. In contrast, when you apply for a symplicity or craigslist posting its you and at least 50 other people, and thats best case scenario.

Its all a numbers game. Sometimes opportunity literally knocks on the door when you are doing nothing and are below median and other times you gotta put in a lot of effort even if you're strong on paper. The best thing you can do as a 3L is the following: 1.) Apply to small firms to work as a part time law clerk, many times this will lead to either permanent employment or at least a permanent la clerk position while you wait. 2.) Meet people. A lot. Email for informational interviews, talk to your professors, talk to people in public places, etc. Trust me, its 100 times more awkward to do an informational interview when you're an unemployed graduate than when you're still in school. 3.) Take practical classes. No one cares that you took Business Organizations. People care if you did a clinic where you actually presented motions, negotiated with opposing counsel and did administrative hearings. 4.) Try to do one of those oral advocacy competitions and put time into it. Saying you were a competitor is worthless, saying on your resume that you were a finalist/semifinalist is something that may raise an eyebrow. 4.) Don't stop at symplicity and craigslist. Look for other sites, spend time playing aroun with keywords on symplyhired, look through BYU's job bank and many different schools), etc. Sit down and map out where you'd be willing to work (location-wise) and expand your search. The beauty for 3L's is that you haven't signed up for the bar yet so you can technically apply to anywhere as an entry level attorney. Don't be picky here, you're at the end of the rope. 5.) Mass mail. A friend of mine got a biglaw vault firm (yes, seriously) position as a 3L in the spring from mass mailing. Its obviously a 1% chance, but you never know when a budget could open up or a person could withdraw from the accepted offer.

Finally, and most importantly: Keep your head up. Around this time two years ago I worked for a nice firm with a good salary in a cushy office and guarantees of an offer. That all ended with about a 5 minute conversation one day due to budget reasons. I then picked up 2 more offers during 3L that were both rescinded (one due to budget and another due to satellite office they hired me for not opening). It sucks, and sometimes I think that my luck can't be any worse. But life comes in stripes, and you just gotta keep pushing. Every day you don't look for something, meet with someone or mass mail is a day other people are doing it and getting ahead of you. Drink 8 cups of coffee a day if you need to, but you absolutely need to keep pushing. All you need is one offer, and while nothing can ever guarantee anything, you're at least setting yourself up with the best possible scenario you can get.

180 advice

[ninereal]

wooo, two gov't interviews coming up - one Friday with the rural prosecutor's office I posted about a few pages back, one Monday with the state AG.

not counting any chickens yet, but it's encouraging to finally be getting calls

[Void]

So a bout of self-loathing, but does anyone here feel like he/she is in the vale because they're just didn't do well enough in law school? Is being in the top 15%...granted at a T2...but a respected one in its region....really so low of a rank that I am just utterly unemployable? There are about 20 or so kids at my school who got coveted big law jobs out of a class of 220 so it was possible to be employed coming out of here but did I really need to be that high ranked? I mention big law because outside of a clerkship or government how else are we getting employed?

Is being in the top 15% at a t2 really the equivalent of bottom 2% of a tier 1 or the equivalent of being a lepper?!! Sorry for the rant. Just needed to vent and felt like my fellow valers would be sympathetic. Thanks for keeping this going...I read it everyday day...helps me get through this crappy time as an unemployed 3L.

I was around top 15% (estimated cause school doesn't rank) coming out of a T2 and didn't have a job. Many of my friends who had worse grades, did no clinics, had no journal/mock trial, and sat around all semester instead of clerking during the year to beef up the resume still got jobs, some got very good jobs. Its not about you per se, its about luck. One of my friends got a job by mass mailing a firm the day two partners happen to discuss how much work they had and needed to hire someone else. If she mass mailed them 2 weeks before they would have deleted her resume and forgot about her. Another friend got a job cause our mock trial coach was a partner at a firm and literally said whoever can get their resume to him the fastest can have a job during our practice once. The idea that 75% of jobs aren't posted is entirely true. When small firms want to hire someone they usually just ask fellow attorneys around the area. If you happen to stumble on one of those jobs that isn't posted its basically yours to lose cause you're the only one interviewing for it. In contrast, when you apply for a symplicity or craigslist posting its you and at least 50 other people, and thats best case scenario.

Its all a numbers game. Sometimes opportunity literally knocks on the door when you are doing nothing and are below median and other times you gotta put in a lot of effort even if you're strong on paper. The best thing you can do as a 3L is the following: 1.) Apply to small firms to work as a part time law clerk, many times this will lead to either permanent employment or at least a permanent la clerk position while you wait. 2.) Meet people. A lot. Email for informational interviews, talk to your professors, talk to people in public places, etc. Trust me, its 100 times more awkward to do an informational interview when you're an unemployed graduate than when you're still in school. 3.) Take practical classes. No one cares that you took Business Organizations. People care if you did a clinic where you actually presented motions, negotiated with opposing counsel and did administrative hearings. 4.) Try to do one of those oral advocacy competitions and put time into it. Saying you were a competitor is worthless, saying on your resume that you were a finalist/semifinalist is something that may raise an eyebrow. 4.) Don't stop at symplicity and craigslist. Look for other sites, spend time playing aroun with keywords on symplyhired, look through BYU's job bank and many different schools), etc. Sit down and map out where you'd be willing to work (location-wise) and expand your search. The beauty for 3L's is that you haven't signed up for the bar yet so you can technically apply to anywhere as an entry level attorney. Don't be picky here, you're at the end of the rope. 5.) Mass mail. A friend of mine got a biglaw vault firm (yes, seriously) position as a 3L in the spring from mass mailing. Its obviously a 1% chance, but you never know when a budget could open up or a person could withdraw from the accepted offer.

Finally, and most importantly: Keep your head up. Around this time two years ago I worked for a nice firm with a good salary in a cushy office and guarantees of an offer. That all ended with about a 5 minute conversation one day due to budget reasons. I then picked up 2 more offers during 3L that were both rescinded (one due to budget and another due to satellite office they hired me for not opening). It sucks, and sometimes I think that my luck can't be any worse. But life comes in stripes, and you just gotta keep pushing. Every day you don't look for something, meet with someone or mass mail is a day other people are doing it and getting ahead of you. Drink 8 cups of coffee a day if you need to, but you absolutely need to keep pushing. All you need is one offer, and while nothing can ever guarantee anything, you're at least setting yourself up with the best possible scenario you can get.

180 advice

[stressed2010]

Hey Barbell OP here from the self-loathing post. That was the best response I have ever gotten on this damn website. Thanks for helping a brother out. Those are some solid ideas and some truly motivational words. Got the 3L law clerk gig down...just don't know if it'll lead anywhere...they are always such teases. I'm sorry to hear about your plight...it really is a game of luck. For your sake I will keep plugging away!

[Void]

Hey Barbell OP here from the self-loathing post. That was the best response I have ever gotten on this damn website. Thanks for helping a brother out. Those are some solid ideas and some truly motivational words. Got the 3L law clerk gig down...just don't know if it'll lead anywhere...they are always such teases. I'm sorry to hear about your plight...it really is a game of luck. For your sake I will keep plugging away!

Barbell's advice was solid. The only thing I would add is just a general suggestion to keep moving. Even after graduation, don't let yourself wake up one morning and decide not to go out and hustle that day. Get involved in the ways Barbell suggests and do your best to stay involved. Meet people, volunteer- even go to court just to watch. (I once randomly sat in on a jury selection for a criminal case and ended up hitting it off with the lawyers by the end of the afternoon. If you are legitimately seeking to learn something from people, they will almost always be excited to help you). Some law students are handed jobs for basically doing nothing, but that's not going to happen for you- you need to keep going every single day and you will eventually get an offer.

[Dr. Review]

Hey Barbell OP here from the self-loathing post. That was the best response I have ever gotten on this damn website. Thanks for helping a brother out. Those are some solid ideas and some truly motivational words. Got the 3L law clerk gig down...just don't know if it'll lead anywhere...they are always such teases. I'm sorry to hear about your plight...it really is a game of luck. For your sake I will keep plugging away!

Barbell's advice was solid. The only thing I would add is just a general suggestion to keep moving. Even after graduation, don't let yourself wake up one morning and decide not to go out and hustle that day. Get involved in the ways Barbell suggests and do your best to stay involved. Meet people, volunteer- even go to court just to watch. (I once randomly sat in on a jury selection for a criminal case and ended up hitting it off with the lawyers by the end of the afternoon. If you are legitimately seeking to learn something from people, they will almost always be excited to help you). Some law students are handed jobs for basically doing nothing, but that's not going to happen for you- you need to keep going every single day and you will eventually get an offer.

I once got a callback interview at a vault firm by observing a hearing in federal court while externing for a judge. I ended up interning in house for the party in that case, clerked for the local counsel for that hearing, and now work very heavily with them as their outside counsel at a different firm. You never know who you're going to meet and how it might be meaningful.

Take every opportunity, and ALWAYS follow up.

[spleenworship]

1. Barbells the man.

2. It appears that a second armed service has declined me. Oh well. 2 more to go. And I get another shot with the one that didnt pick me today. Also, still a couple outstanding PD applications.

[chrisbru]

Bros,

I applied for a dream consulting job with an amazing, passionate firm in my target city a few weeks ago. I today got a notification that someone at the company viewed my profile on LinkedIn. So I wrote an enthusiastic and pointed email to that person directly expressing my interest in their company, and why I specifically want to be a part of their team. Good idea? Either way, super stoked that I'm being considered enough for a LinkedIn view at least.

[spleenworship]

I think that was a good move.

Good luck Bro!

[legalese_retard]

So a bout of self-loathing, but does anyone here feel like he/she is in the vale because they're just didn't do well enough in law school? Is being in the top 15%...granted at a T2...but a respected one in its region....really so low of a rank that I am just utterly unemployable? There are about 20 or so kids at my school who got coveted big law jobs out of a class of 220 so it was possible to be employed coming out of here but did I really need to be that high ranked? I mention big law because outside of a clerkship or government how else are we getting employed?

Is being in the top 15% at a t2 really the equivalent of bottom 2% of a tier 1 or the equivalent of being a lepper?!! Sorry for the rant. Just needed to vent and felt like my fellow valers would be sympathetic. Thanks for keeping this going...I read it everyday day...helps me get through this crappy time as an unemployed 3L.

I know how you feel as I am suffering from my own bout of employment leprosy. I graduated with honors from a T1 school, was on the secondary journal with multiple articles published, already passed the bar, and I am finishing up my second federal clerkship. I've been applying to several different firms, both big and small, all over my state; however, all I get are rejection letters and radio silence. I'm at a complete loss right now.