Incoming Associates Getting Deferred Forum

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland just sent an email to our incoming associates informing them that they will be starting on Oct 19.

And the same day, moments later, the bar was cancelled. Between bar cancellations, states seeing COVID numbers spike, and widescale expectation of a second wave and subsequent shutdowns, is there a point at which firms give up on the class of 2020? When?

Yeah, I would bet money on Kirkland knowing in advance the bar was going to be cancelled and offering start dates to incoming associates anyway, on the same day. They didn't just give start dates either, they gave full benefits starting August 1. The reasonable assumption is that they know the bar is about to be cancelled, is trash generally, and still want the class of 2020 because they're swimming in work and need all hands on deck/do not want to delay any further. But, if you have any other information to suggest Kirkland didn't know the bar would be cancelled before sending out their start dates the same day to us, please let us know because you'll blow our group chat up with that info! Hope you're well!

[Anon115523]

Kirkland just sent an email to our incoming associates informing them that they will be starting on Oct 19.

And the same day, moments later, the bar was cancelled. Between bar cancellations, states seeing COVID numbers spike, and widescale expectation of a second wave and subsequent shutdowns, is there a point at which firms give up on the class of 2020? When?

Assuming that whatever happens, NY won't force the class of 2020 to sit for the February exam, this doesn't really change much. A good chunk (the majority?) of the v100 have already deferred to January. Of the firms that have set start dates in 2020, pretty much all of them seemed to have anticipated the possibility of an October exam (see Cravath, WLRK) and set start dates for Oct/Nov.

Also, I think it's worth noting that while America has completely fucked up its coronavirus response, a lot of the rest of the world is doing much better. Many Asian countries have a very low daily infection rate that continues to drop. For firms with a strong international presence, hopefully this means that business outside the US will start picking up. This is total speculation, but not unreasonable.

[Anonymous User]

Check the list:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LawSchool/comm ... rst_years/

This week, four of the V10s have committed to on-boarding incoming associates in the fall, five remain agnostic, and STB is the sole outlier (deferral to 2021). It's too early to say but a trend seems emerging.

My take: these firms just finished conducting their remote SA program and have been able to make a judgment call on whether it's feasible to onboard associates remotely and get them to work on assignments. Yes, some places are low on hours but others are drowning in work.

This is especially how I read KE. Oct 19 allows people in CA, TX, and elsewhere to take the online bar exam in early Oct, get some rest, then start remotely. Friends of mine who'd summered at KE worked remotely for KE during all of 3L using their school laptops. Admittedly, these 3L paid gigs are very low hours but they prove a point. If you can bill hours for them while still at school, you can certainly do so once school is out.

[Anonymous User]

State bars have really, really fucked the class of 2020 over.

[Anonymous User]

V&E delaying incoming associates to January 2021. No mention of stipend or additional advance. Things like this could differentiate firms for future classes. Makes KE look more attractive.

[Anonymous User]

V&E delaying incoming associates to January 2021. No mention of stipend or additional advance. Things like this could differentiate firms for future classes. Makes KE look more attractive.

Latham is also offering an October and November start date this year for incoming associates. Pretty surprised V&E would shoot themselves in the foot like this.

[Ultramar vistas]

V&E delaying incoming associates to January 2021. No mention of stipend or additional advance. Things like this could differentiate firms for future classes. Makes KE look more attractive.

Latham is also offering an October and November start date this year for incoming associates. Pretty surprised V&E would shoot themselves in the foot like this.

I mean they wouldn’t, voluntarily; it looks terrible when your two main home court rivals have done the right thing. They obviously don’t have the firm financials to keep up with the Joneses, but that’s not super surprising.

[Anonymous User]

I doubt they *had* to defer. Sounds like partner greed to me.

They could’ve deferred their usual September start date to November, blamed it on the October bar exam, and still kept up with the Joneses. How much money do they really save by deferring from say, November 15, until January 1?

[Anonymous User]

Yes this looks bad. It's one thing to defer with a 20k stipend or so to get people through. But absent financial support, new V&E associates lose out on ~40k and three months experience compared to LW and KE.

[Anonymous User]

Yes this looks bad. It's one thing to defer with a 20k stipend or so to get people through. But absent financial support, new V&E associates lose out on ~40k and three months experience compared to LW and KE.

Multiple other big firms have done the same. STB, Cleary, Willkie, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Yes this looks bad. It's one thing to defer with a 20k stipend or so to get people through. But absent financial support, new V&E associates lose out on ~40k and three months experience compared to LW and KE.

Multiple other big firms have done the same. STB, Cleary, Willkie, etc.

It’s a bit different for those firms. How many law students are struggling to choose between Cleary and K&E? How many law students consider those firms basically indistinguishable? In contrast, many law students who want to work in Houston decide between V&E/Latham/K&E. Every year, there are TLS threads discussing which firm to choose.

For years, V&E was the best firm in Houston for transactional work. Then Latham and K&E came to town and started competing with V&E for the top spot. Now, each of these three firms could be considered the best transactional firm in Houston. K&E distinguishes itself with its PE and bankruptcy practices and more intense culture, but V&E and Latham are basically interchangeable at this point. Students are looking for any way to differentiate the two. Now they have a big reason to NOT choose V&E.

[Anonymous User]

Yes this looks bad. It's one thing to defer with a 20k stipend or so to get people through. But absent financial support, new V&E associates lose out on ~40k and three months experience compared to LW and KE.

Multiple other big firms have done the same. STB, Cleary, Willkie, etc.

It’s a bit different for those firms. How many law students are struggling to choose between Cleary and K&E? How many law students consider those firms basically indistinguishable? In contrast, many law students who want to work in Houston decide between V&E/Latham/K&E. Every year, there are TLS threads discussing which firm to choose.

For years, V&E was the best firm in Houston for transactional work. Then Latham and K&E came to town and started competing with V&E for the top spot. Now, each of these three firms could be considered the best transactional firm in Houston. K&E distinguishes itself with its PE and bankruptcy practices and more intense culture, but V&E and Latham are basically interchangeable at this point. Students are looking for any way to differentiate the two. Now they have a big reason to NOT choose V&E.

I think it's pretty clear that, atleast before Covid, Latham is number 3. It's standout practice in Houston is capital markets. V&E has historically had a nice balance between capital markets and M&A (nice mix of public and private) and K&E has historically been mostly M&A (mostly private but now getting some big public deals as well).
As to V&E, a look at recent M&A data has shown their practice has fallen entirely off a cliff, even relative to the other top firms that have been killed as well.
And I also want to push back on the K&E "intense" culture thing. If that means they work alot of hours, that's true. So does everything else (when they have work!). But it's not a stuffy environment at all and actually pretty informal and chill. V&E is noticeably more buttoned up and serious. Idk about Latham but I haven't heard anything bad.

Anon because I don't want others to infer who I am.

[Winter is Coming]

Kirkland just sent an email to our incoming associates informing them that they will be starting on Oct 19.

And the same day, moments later, the bar was cancelled. Between bar cancellations, states seeing COVID numbers spike, and widescale expectation of a second wave and subsequent shutdowns, is there a point at which firms give up on the class of 2020? When?

Yeah, I would bet money on Kirkland knowing in advance the bar was going to be cancelled and offering start dates to incoming associates anyway, on the same day. They didn't just give start dates either, they gave full benefits starting August 1. The reasonable assumption is that they know the bar is about to be cancelled, is trash generally, and still want the class of 2020 because they're swimming in work and need all hands on deck/do not want to delay any further. But, if you have any other information to suggest Kirkland didn't know the bar would be cancelled before sending out their start dates the same day to us, please let us know because you'll blow our group chat up with that info! Hope you're well!

haha

[Anonymous User]

If anyone wants to join me in praying I don't get deferred to 2021.

v10 firms starting this fall
Cravath starting September - November.
Wachtell September - November.
Latham October - November.
Kirkland October.
Davis Polk November.
Gibson Oct - December.

v10 firms starting next year
Skadden 2021.
Simpson 2021.

v10 firms with no start date
Sullivan and Cromwell
Paul Weiss

Our Firm, who art in silence, hallowed be thy Name, thy startdate come, thy will be done, in NY as it is in LA.
Give us this day our startdate please. And forgive us this pandemic, as we forgive those who hold exams from us.
And lead us not into 2021, but deliver us this fall.
For thine is the law firm, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

[FedFan123]

If anyone wants to join me in praying I don't get deferred to 2021.

v10 firms starting this fall
Cravath starting September - November.
Wachtell September - November.
Latham October - November.
Kirkland October.
Davis Polk November.
Gibson Oct - December.

v10 firms starting next year
Skadden 2021.
Simpson 2021.

v10 firms with no start date
Sullivan and Cromwell
Paul Weiss

Our Firm, who art in silence, hallowed be thy Name, thy startdate come, thy will be done, in NY as it is in LA.
Give us this day our startdate please. And forgive us this pandemic, as we forgive those who hold exams from us.
And lead us not into 2021, but deliver us this fall.
For thine is the law firm, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

Womp

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin will start in October.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin will start in October.

Round of applause for Goodwin and all the firms that are starting in the Fall. I fully intend to ward any law students away from firms that defer to January once OCI comes around....

[Anon115523]

Goodwin will start in October.

Round of applause for Goodwin and all the firms that are starting in the Fall. I fully intend to ward any law students away from firms that defer to January once OCI comes around....

Yes, Skadden and STB are clearly inferior firms to Goodwin

[addie1412]

Goodwin will start in October.

Round of applause for Goodwin and all the firms that are starting in the Fall. I fully intend to ward any law students away from firms that defer to January once OCI comes around....

Yes, Skadden and STB are clearly inferior firms to Goodwin

Students with offers from Skadden and STB will also likely have offers from Cravath, S&C, Kirkland, Latham, DPW, Gibson Dunn, etc., none of which deferred. They probably won't be deciding between Skadden/STB and Goodwin, so that's likely not what the anon poster's advice was meant to apply to.

[Anon115523]

Goodwin will start in October.

Round of applause for Goodwin and all the firms that are starting in the Fall. I fully intend to ward any law students away from firms that defer to January once OCI comes around....

Yes, Skadden and STB are clearly inferior firms to Goodwin

Students with offers from Skadden and STB will also likely have offers from Cravath, S&C, Kirkland, Latham, DPW, Gibson Dunn, etc., none of which deferred. They probably won't be deciding between Skadden/STB and Goodwin, so that's likely not what the anon poster's advice was meant to apply to.

Skadden and STB are extreme examples, but my point is there are numerous other firms that have deferred that are still far superior to Goodwin. Examples include Hogan, Sidley, Cleary, W&C, Ropes, PH, MoFo, OMM, Cooley, Akin, A&P, Orrick, MB, Munger etc.

Goodwin was the most notorious stealther during this whole thing. Goodwin is trash. If you had to pick between a firm that laid off associates but allowed incoming associates to start on time or vice versa, any rational person would pick the latter.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin will start in October.

Round of applause for Goodwin and all the firms that are starting in the Fall. I fully intend to ward any law students away from firms that defer to January once OCI comes around....

Yes, Skadden and STB are clearly inferior firms to Goodwin

Students with offers from Skadden and STB will also likely have offers from Cravath, S&C, Kirkland, Latham, DPW, Gibson Dunn, etc., none of which deferred. They probably won't be deciding between Skadden/STB and Goodwin, so that's likely not what the anon poster's advice was meant to apply to.

Skadden and STB are extreme examples, but my point is there are numerous other firms that have deferred that are still far superior to Goodwin. Examples include Hogan, Sidley, Cleary, W&C, Ropes, PH, MoFo, OMM, Cooley, Akin, A&P, Orrick, MB, Munger etc.

Goodwin was the most notorious stealther during this whole thing. Goodwin is trash. If you had to pick between a firm that laid off associates but allowed incoming associates to start on time or vice versa, any rational person would pick the latter.

Goodwin is definitely not the "most nortorious." They were let go because of performance. And I'm sure Cleary and Ropes stealthed too.

[Wubbles]

Goodwin will start in October.

Round of applause for Goodwin and all the firms that are starting in the Fall. I fully intend to ward any law students away from firms that defer to January once OCI comes around....

Yes, Skadden and STB are clearly inferior firms to Goodwin

Students with offers from Skadden and STB will also likely have offers from Cravath, S&C, Kirkland, Latham, DPW, Gibson Dunn, etc., none of which deferred. They probably won't be deciding between Skadden/STB and Goodwin, so that's likely not what the anon poster's advice was meant to apply to.

Skadden and STB are extreme examples, but my point is there are numerous other firms that have deferred that are still far superior to Goodwin. Examples include Hogan, Sidley, Cleary, W&C, Ropes, PH, MoFo, OMM, Cooley, Akin, A&P, Orrick, MB, Munger etc.

Goodwin was the most notorious stealther during this whole thing. Goodwin is trash. If you had to pick between a firm that laid off associates but allowed incoming associates to start on time or vice versa, any rational person would pick the latter.

Goodwin is definitely not the "most nortorious." They were let go because of performance. And I'm sure Cleary and Ropes stealthed too.

"Performance"

[Anon115523]

Goodwin will start in October.

Round of applause for Goodwin and all the firms that are starting in the Fall. I fully intend to ward any law students away from firms that defer to January once OCI comes around....

Yes, Skadden and STB are clearly inferior firms to Goodwin

Students with offers from Skadden and STB will also likely have offers from Cravath, S&C, Kirkland, Latham, DPW, Gibson Dunn, etc., none of which deferred. They probably won't be deciding between Skadden/STB and Goodwin, so that's likely not what the anon poster's advice was meant to apply to.

Skadden and STB are extreme examples, but my point is there are numerous other firms that have deferred that are still far superior to Goodwin. Examples include Hogan, Sidley, Cleary, W&C, Ropes, PH, MoFo, OMM, Cooley, Akin, A&P, Orrick, MB, Munger etc.

Goodwin was the most notorious stealther during this whole thing. Goodwin is trash. If you had to pick between a firm that laid off associates but allowed incoming associates to start on time or vice versa, any rational person would pick the latter.

Goodwin is definitely not the "most nortorious." They were let go because of performance. And I'm sure Cleary and Ropes stealthed too.

"Performance"

Lol exactly--"performance." Everyone knows for sure Goodwin stealthed, maybe Cleary and Ropes did too. But Goodwin was the only one who got outed for it:

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/05/goodwin ... h-layoffs/

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/business- ... ffs-report

http://static3.businessinsider.com/layo ... er-2009-11

So I'm pretty comfortable saying Goodwin was the most notorious.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin will start in October.

Round of applause for Goodwin and all the firms that are starting in the Fall. I fully intend to ward any law students away from firms that defer to January once OCI comes around....

Yes, Skadden and STB are clearly inferior firms to Goodwin

Students with offers from Skadden and STB will also likely have offers from Cravath, S&C, Kirkland, Latham, DPW, Gibson Dunn, etc., none of which deferred. They probably won't be deciding between Skadden/STB and Goodwin, so that's likely not what the anon poster's advice was meant to apply to.

Skadden and STB are extreme examples, but my point is there are numerous other firms that have deferred that are still far superior to Goodwin. Examples include Hogan, Sidley, Cleary, W&C, Ropes, PH, MoFo, OMM, Cooley, Akin, A&P, Orrick, MB, Munger etc.

Goodwin was the most notorious stealther during this whole thing. Goodwin is trash. If you had to pick between a firm that laid off associates but allowed incoming associates to start on time or vice versa, any rational person would pick the latter.

Is there a reason you're so opposed to Goodwin besides the stealth layoffs? Not trying to argue, just wondering because I'm considering a lateral move there (hence anon).

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin will start in October.

Round of applause for Goodwin and all the firms that are starting in the Fall. I fully intend to ward any law students away from firms that defer to January once OCI comes around....

Yes, Skadden and STB are clearly inferior firms to Goodwin

Students with offers from Skadden and STB will also likely have offers from Cravath, S&C, Kirkland, Latham, DPW, Gibson Dunn, etc., none of which deferred. They probably won't be deciding between Skadden/STB and Goodwin, so that's likely not what the anon poster's advice was meant to apply to.

Skadden and STB are extreme examples, but my point is there are numerous other firms that have deferred that are still far superior to Goodwin. Examples include Hogan, Sidley, Cleary, W&C, Ropes, PH, MoFo, OMM, Cooley, Akin, A&P, Orrick, MB, Munger etc.

Goodwin was the most notorious stealther during this whole thing. Goodwin is trash. If you had to pick between a firm that laid off associates but allowed incoming associates to start on time or vice versa, any rational person would pick the latter.

Is there a reason you're so opposed to Goodwin besides the stealth layoffs? Not trying to argue, just wondering because I'm considering a lateral move there (hence anon).

I got a few friends working there. The people are great and workload is reasonable. Anon115523 obviously had some unpleasant personal experience with GP.