Let's talk about Atlanta! Forum

[Anonymous User]

Just to add another anecdote for how tough the Atlanta market is, I'm a rising 3L at UVA who spent a large number of bids on Atlanta and got shut out last year. I'm from the south, had grades just a hair below law review, and some family in Atlanta. Got a number of callbacks, but no offers. Many of my friends that focused on Atlanta with grades at or slightly above median also didn't get an offer out of OGI, much to the surprise of alums I spoke to, who seem to be out of touch with what the market is like now.

[hellojd]

Just to add another anecdote for how tough the Atlanta market is, I'm a rising 3L at UVA who spent a large number of bids on Atlanta and got shut out last year. I'm from the south, had grades just a hair below law review, and some family in Atlanta. Got a number of callbacks, but no offers. Many of my friends that focused on Atlanta with grades at or slightly above median also didn't get an offer out of OGI, much to the surprise of alums I spoke to, who seem to be out of touch with what the market is like now.

Does this sort of selectivity and smaller associate classes lead to any better chance at partnership at the ATL firms? Or still just shy of a snowballs chance in hell?

[BruceWayne]

Just to add another anecdote for how tough the Atlanta market is, I'm a rising 3L at UVA who spent a large number of bids on Atlanta and got shut out last year. I'm from the south, had grades just a hair below law review, and some family in Atlanta. Got a number of callbacks, but no offers. Many of my friends that focused on Atlanta with grades at or slightly above median also didn't get an offer out of OGI, much to the surprise of alums I spoke to, who seem to be out of touch with what the market is like now.

Does this sort of selectivity and smaller associate classes lead to any better chance at partnership at the ATL firms? Or still just shy of a snowballs chance in hell?

Lol hell no. Also keep in mind that the harsh reality that a lot of TLSers don't want to admit is that many of these secondary market firms (like those in Atlanta) have just switched to hiring almost completely from the top of the class at the local schools. UGA, Emory, GA State, and Mercer are still filling up the majority of the spots in the Atlanta firms summer classes.

I'll say this, and I believe I saw some article about it a while back: although this new model that firms are using (hiring very few associates, ramping up on the staff attorneys/doc reviewers etc., and STILL promoting the associates that they do hire to partnership at a very low rate, will lead to an interesting (and bad) dynamic for firms down the line. In the long run I'm not sure it's such a great idea--even if it's awesome for the firms right now. Not relevant to us now though.

[FSK]

Just to add another anecdote for how tough the Atlanta market is, I'm a rising 3L at UVA who spent a large number of bids on Atlanta and got shut out last year. I'm from the south, had grades just a hair below law review, and some family in Atlanta. Got a number of callbacks, but no offers. Many of my friends that focused on Atlanta with grades at or slightly above median also didn't get an offer out of OGI, much to the surprise of alums I spoke to, who seem to be out of touch with what the market is like now.

Does this sort of selectivity and smaller associate classes lead to any better chance at partnership at the ATL firms? Or still just shy of a snowballs chance in hell?

Lol hell no. Also keep in mind that the harsh reality that a lot of TLSers don't want to admit is that many of these secondary market firms (like those in Atlanta) have just switched to hiring almost completely from the top of the class at the local schools. UGA, Emory, GA State, and Mercer are still filling up the majority of the spots in the Atlanta firms summer classes.

I'll say this, and I believe I saw some article about it a while back: although this new model that firms are using (hiring very few associates, ramping up on the staff attorneys/doc reviewers etc., and STILL promoting the associates that they do hire to partnership at a very low rate, will lead to an interesting (and bad) dynamic for firms down the line. In the long run I'm not sure it's such a great idea--even if it's awesome for the firms right now. Not relevant to us now though.

The impending retirement of shitboomers will make the job landscape very different/interesting over the next 20 years. Just have to hope you're in a good position to take advantage of it.

[Anonymous User]

For those familiar with Kilpatrick: How much of their business is IP / IP lit? Do they have a large general (i.e. non-IP) lit section?

Also, does anyone know anything about Nelson Mullins? Selectivity? Type of work they do? Reputation? They're coming to my school's OCI for the first time this year so wasn't able to ask classmates or career services about them.

[Anonymous User]

Just to add another anecdote for how tough the Atlanta market is, I'm a rising 3L at UVA who spent a large number of bids on Atlanta and got shut out last year. I'm from the south, had grades just a hair below law review, and some family in Atlanta. Got a number of callbacks, but no offers. Many of my friends that focused on Atlanta with grades at or slightly above median also didn't get an offer out of OGI, much to the surprise of alums I spoke to, who seem to be out of touch with what the market is like now.

Does this sort of selectivity and smaller associate classes lead to any better chance at partnership at the ATL firms? Or still just shy of a snowballs chance in hell?

Lol hell no. Also keep in mind that the harsh reality that a lot of TLSers don't want to admit is that many of these secondary market firms (like those in Atlanta) have just switched to hiring almost completely from the top of the class at the local schools. UGA, Emory, GA State, and Mercer are still filling up the majority of the spots in the Atlanta firms summer classes.

I'll say this, and I believe I saw some article about it a while back: although this new model that firms are using (hiring very few associates, ramping up on the staff attorneys/doc reviewers etc., and STILL promoting the associates that they do hire to partnership at a very low rate, will lead to an interesting (and bad) dynamic for firms down the line. In the long run I'm not sure it's such a great idea--even if it's awesome for the firms right now. Not relevant to us now though.

I have experience in two secondary markets (ATL and Boston) and just wanted to push back on the bolded. I don't think its true that many have switched their recruiting models at all. In fact, the cuts have have disproportionately affected the local schools by a large measure. In Boston, for example, pretty much every major firm has slashed their summer programs by about half. In doing so, they haven't decreased their HYS+T14 hiring at all. The firms that used to take 10-15 BU/BC kids are now just taking 1-3. In ATL the effect has been a little less pronounced simply because they struggle to recruit at most of the top schools anyway, but its still happening pretty much the same way.

[Anonymous User]

While this is on the top page, any thoughts on K&S's NALP projection of having just 7 summers this year? Isn't that pretty low for them?

[rad lulz]

.,

[Anonymous User]

While this is on the top page, any thoughts on K&S's NALP projection of having just 7 summers this year? Isn't that pretty low for them?

It's basically accurate. The Fulton County Daily Report reported on June 16 (you can get it on Lexis) that K&S has 10 summers. The NALP survey you seem to be referring to (link) lists 7 projected 2Ls and 3 projected 1Ls. So those numbers appear to agree. The Daily Report article says K&S had 17 last year but that was "larger than usual." I summered (not at K&S, another Atlanta firm) in 2011, and K&S had 7 total summers then.

Welcome to the new normal...

[Anonymous User]

I have experience in two secondary markets (ATL and Boston) and just wanted to push back on the bolded. I don't think its true that many have switched their recruiting models at all. In fact, the cuts have have disproportionately affected the local schools by a large measure. In Boston, for example, pretty much every major firm has slashed their summer programs by about half. In doing so, they haven't decreased their HYS+T14 hiring at all. The firms that used to take 10-15 BU/BC kids are now just taking 1-3. In ATL the effect has been a little less pronounced simply because they struggle to recruit at most of the top schools anyway, but its still happening pretty much the same way.

This is ridiculously wrong. In this economy nobody is struggling to recruit anywhere. Just look at all the T14 kids shut out ITT. You also have no basis for your assumption that Atlanta and Boston are the same.

[Anonymous User]

I have experience in two secondary markets (ATL and Boston) and just wanted to push back on the bolded. I don't think its true that many have switched their recruiting models at all. In fact, the cuts have have disproportionately affected the local schools by a large measure. In Boston, for example, pretty much every major firm has slashed their summer programs by about half. In doing so, they haven't decreased their HYS+T14 hiring at all. The firms that used to take 10-15 BU/BC kids are now just taking 1-3. In ATL the effect has been a little less pronounced simply because they struggle to recruit at most of the top schools anyway, but its still happening pretty much the same way.

This is ridiculously wrong. In this economy nobody is struggling to recruit anywhere. Just look at all the T14 kids shut out ITT. You also have no basis for your assumption that Atlanta and Boston are the same.

Firms recruit within a certain range of students. The students shut out aren't necessarily the type of students that A+B, K&S, Jones Day, Sutherland, etc. are willing to take. Within the range of students they want, top ATL firms struggle to recruit at some of the top schools. Even after being super selective about callbacks and offers, ATL firms yield about 1 in 5 acceptances at the 3 of HYSCCN that I have spreadsheets for from the last few years.

I also wasn't saying ATL/BOS are the same, I was providing a pointed example. I said that I have experience (i.e. I have worked/seen summer associate lists at top firms in both markets). Thats my basis.

[BruceWayne]

I have experience in two secondary markets (ATL and Boston) and just wanted to push back on the bolded. I don't think its true that many have switched their recruiting models at all. In fact, the cuts have have disproportionately affected the local schools by a large measure. In Boston, for example, pretty much every major firm has slashed their summer programs by about half. In doing so, they haven't decreased their HYS+T14 hiring at all. The firms that used to take 10-15 BU/BC kids are now just taking 1-3. In ATL the effect has been a little less pronounced simply because they struggle to recruit at most of the top schools anyway, but its still happening pretty much the same way.

This is ridiculously wrong. In this economy nobody is struggling to recruit anywhere. Just look at all the T14 kids shut out ITT. You also have no basis for your assumption that Atlanta and Boston are the same.

Firms recruit within a certain range of students. The students shut out aren't necessarily the type of students that A+B, K&S, Jones Day, Sutherland, etc. are willing to take. Within the range of students they want, top ATL firms struggle to recruit at some of the top schools. Even after being super selective about callbacks and offers, ATL firms yield about 1 in 5 acceptances at the 3 of HYSCCN that I have spreadsheets for from the last few years.

I also wasn't saying ATL/BOS are the same, I was providing a pointed example. I said that I have experience (i.e. I have worked/seen summer associate lists at top firms in both markets). Thats my basis.

That you're using "HYSCCN" for Atlanta recruiting shows that you don't understand the Atlanta market. The idea that firms even divide up the schools that way is basically something constructed by TLS that only really applies to NYC firms--maybe California. I can't think of a market where that mindset is as irrelevant as Atlanta.

ATL firms aren't struggling to recruit period and they don't really care about which of the top 14 you attended outside of Harvard and Yale being a big deal and them being accustomed to recruiting from UVA and Duke. The top ATL firms DEFINITELY started shutting out students that they used to take pre-crash. Guess which one of the following groups got cut after the crash. Top of class top 14, top of class regionals (UGA, Emory, GA State, Mercer), top of class Vandy, or median and below top 14/Vandy with ties? The last group used to make up a good bit of the summer class at many Atlanta firms as evidenced by pre crash callback info and pre crash summer class sizes (I'm talking 30 people at each of Alston and K&S for example). Now that last group is borderline nonexistant at these firms when you look at callback info. Now summer classes are filled with those in the first three groups (especially the second) by a LARGE margin.

[rad lulz]

.

[Anonymous User]

I have experience in two secondary markets (ATL and Boston) and just wanted to push back on the bolded. I don't think its true that many have switched their recruiting models at all. In fact, the cuts have have disproportionately affected the local schools by a large measure. In Boston, for example, pretty much every major firm has slashed their summer programs by about half. In doing so, they haven't decreased their HYS+T14 hiring at all. The firms that used to take 10-15 BU/BC kids are now just taking 1-3. In ATL the effect has been a little less pronounced simply because they struggle to recruit at most of the top schools anyway, but its still happening pretty much the same way.

This is ridiculously wrong. In this economy nobody is struggling to recruit anywhere. Just look at all the T14 kids shut out ITT. You also have no basis for your assumption that Atlanta and Boston are the same.

Firms recruit within a certain range of students. The students shut out aren't necessarily the type of students that A+B, K&S, Jones Day, Sutherland, etc. are willing to take. Within the range of students they want, top ATL firms struggle to recruit at some of the top schools. Even after being super selective about callbacks and offers, ATL firms yield about 1 in 5 acceptances at the 3 of HYSCCN that I have spreadsheets for from the last few years.

I also wasn't saying ATL/BOS are the same, I was providing a pointed example. I said that I have experience (i.e. I have worked/seen summer associate lists at top firms in both markets). Thats my basis.

That you're using "HYSCCN" for Atlanta recruiting shows that you don't understand the Atlanta market. The idea that firms even divide up the schools that way is basically something constructed by TLS that only really applies to NYC firms--maybe California. I can't think of a market where that mindset is as irrelevant as Atlanta.

ATL firms aren't struggling to recruit period and they don't really care about which of the top 14 you attended outside of Harvard and Yale being a big deal and them being accustomed to recruiting from UVA and Duke. The top ATL firms DEFINITELY started shutting out students that they used to take pre-crash. Guess which one of the following groups got cut after the crash. Top of class top 14, top of class regionals (UGA, Emory, GA State, Mercer), top of class Vandy, or median and below top 14/Vandy with ties? The last group used to make up a good bit of the summer class at many Atlanta firms as evidenced by pre crash callback info and pre crash summer class sizes (I'm talking 30 people at each of Alston and K&S for example). Now that last group is borderline nonexistant at these firms when you look at callback info. Now summer classes are filled with those in the first three groups (especially the second) by a LARGE margin.

I used HYSCCN to anonymize which of the three I have data for (2 of the 3 are HYS). I don't think I disagree with you at all. I just think we have different interpretations of proportionality. For illustration (numbers are rough for this purpose), it used to be that if K&S took 20 students in a summer class 5-8 (25-40%) of the class would be some combo of local schools with the remaining 12-15 (60-75%) being some combo of T-14 and other top students. Now, if K&S takes 7 then only 1-2 (14-29%) are from the combo of local schools with the remaining 5-6 (71-86%) being some combo of T-14 and other top students.

In this case, local schools are disproportionately affected even though life just generally sucks for everyone.

[MyNameIsFlynn!]

I have experience in two secondary markets (ATL and Boston) and just wanted to push back on the bolded. I don't think its true that many have switched their recruiting models at all. In fact, the cuts have have disproportionately affected the local schools by a large measure. In Boston, for example, pretty much every major firm has slashed their summer programs by about half. In doing so, they haven't decreased their HYS+T14 hiring at all. The firms that used to take 10-15 BU/BC kids are now just taking 1-3. In ATL the effect has been a little less pronounced simply because they struggle to recruit at most of the top schools anyway, but its still happening pretty much the same way.

This is ridiculously wrong. In this economy nobody is struggling to recruit anywhere. Just look at all the T14 kids shut out ITT. You also have no basis for your assumption that Atlanta and Boston are the same.

I'm looking at some of the same data as the anon with whom you're arguing and it's pretty clear that Atl firms are struggling to recruit from HYSCCN. Over the past three years a number of top Atl firms have stopped even coming to OCI at some of the HYS (e.g Kilpatrick Townsend) and top firms are failing miserably to attract HYSers. Both K&S and A&B buy the minimum number of OCI slots at HYS and still consistently fail to even garner enough interest to fill those slots. The offer acceptance %s are pretty bad for HYS - many years those two firms get either nobody or just one or two from HYS

If by some fluke there was a renewed interest in Atl from HYS one year it would probably not bode well for the GA schools given the size of the market

[Anonymous User]

If by some fluke there was a renewed interest in Atl from HYS one year it would probably not bode well for the GA schools given the size of the market

While I have no grounds to comment on your fluke hypothetical, I think you are undervaluing the weirdly insular nature of the Atlanta market. At least two factors are worth consideration into your metric. (1) Many big firm attorneys adjunct at the Georgia schools for which you are struggling to hide your disdain. Thus, the tops of these classes are known commodities. (2) The HYS cachet carries huge clout, of course. But, does the bottom half of HYS garner greater interest than a kid who grew up in the Atlanta area because of his/her HYS-educated parent decided to accept a position in Atlanta a generation ago? That's a lot Georgia connections. Georgians seem to like Georgians. There's something about Waffle House and Sweet Tea and not knowing how to drive in snow.

[Anonymous User]

I used HYSCCN to anonymize which of the three I have data for (2 of the 3 are HYS). I don't think I disagree with you at all. I just think we have different interpretations of proportionality. For illustration (numbers are rough for this purpose), it used to be that if K&S took 20 students in a summer class 5-8 (25-40%) of the class would be some combo of local schools with the remaining 12-15 (60-75%) being some combo of T-14 and other top students. Now, if K&S takes 7 then only 1-2 (14-29%) are from the combo of local schools with the remaining 5-6 (71-86%) being some combo of T-14 and other top students.

In this case, local schools are disproportionately affected even though life just generally sucks for everyone.

You just pulled those percentages out of thin air. You realize that, right?

[Anonymous User]

I have experience in two secondary markets (ATL and Boston) and just wanted to push back on the bolded. I don't think its true that many have switched their recruiting models at all. In fact, the cuts have have disproportionately affected the local schools by a large measure. In Boston, for example, pretty much every major firm has slashed their summer programs by about half. In doing so, they haven't decreased their HYS+T14 hiring at all. The firms that used to take 10-15 BU/BC kids are now just taking 1-3. In ATL the effect has been a little less pronounced simply because they struggle to recruit at most of the top schools anyway, but its still happening pretty much the same way.

This is ridiculously wrong. In this economy nobody is struggling to recruit anywhere. Just look at all the T14 kids shut out ITT. You also have no basis for your assumption that Atlanta and Boston are the same.

I'm looking at some of the same data as the anon with whom you're arguing and it's pretty clear that Atl firms are struggling to recruit from HYSCCN. Over the past three years a number of top Atl firms have stopped even coming to OCI at some of the HYS (e.g Kilpatrick Townsend) and top firms are failing miserably to attract HYSers. Both K&S and A&B buy the minimum number of OCI slots at HYS and still consistently fail to even garner enough interest to fill those slots. The offer acceptance %s are pretty bad for HYS - many years those two firms get either nobody or just one or two from HYS

If by some fluke there was a renewed interest in Atl from HYS one year it would probably not bode well for the GA schools given the size of the market

Kilpatrick is not really in the same league as the others. They have also stopped interviewing and reduced slots at other southern schools.

Hardly anybody goes to CCN looking to work in Atlanta. Bottom half at those schools will not get hired at top Atlanta firms. Hardly anybody at HYS wants to work in Atlanta either. Does that mean Atlanta firms are desperately struggling to attract these students? No. Atlanta firms want people with ties who want to be there. They don't want people who don't want to be there (see, e.g., the number of out of state Emory students getting dinged).

[Anonymous User]

Have any of you guys started mass mailing Atl firms yet? If yes, have you heard anything back? More generally, can anyone speak to what the timeline is to hear back ?

[Anonymous User]

Have any of you guys started mass mailing Atl firms yet? If yes, have you heard anything back? More generally, can anyone speak to what the timeline is to hear back ?

Hear back from a mass mailing? My experience a few years ago was that hit and miss whether I heard back at all. I counted it as a good thing if i did (even though all the mass mail answers were "no thank you").

[Anonymous User]

^^^
mass mailing for NEXT summer?
I'm gonna be a 1L at emory, I know 1L summer associate jobs are close to impossible of landing, but when should I start the mass mailing. Won't hurt to try. think I read in Law School Confidential that the consensus says November 1st.

[NonTradHealthLaw]

^^^
mass mailing for NEXT summer?
I'm gonna be a 1L at emory, I know 1L summer associate jobs are close to impossible of landing, but when should I start the mass mailing. Won't hurt to try. think I read in Law School Confidential that the consensus says November 1st.

Patience, grasshopper. Focus on doing everything you can scholastically to earn one of those positions before sending employers any hamster cage lining. You and they are barred from communicating with each other, anyway: http://www.nalp.org/interpretations#1Ls

[NYSprague]

^^^
mass mailing for NEXT summer?
I'm gonna be a 1L at emory, I know 1L summer associate jobs are close to impossible of landing, but when should I start the mass mailing. Won't hurt to try. think I read in Law School Confidential that the consensus says November 1st.

Patience, grasshopper. Focus on doing everything you can scholastically to earn one of those positions before sending employers any hamster cage lining. You and they are barred from communicating with each other, anyway: http://www.nalp.org/interpretations#1Ls

You realize we were just seeing that a top Atlanta firm is taking 3 1Ls. You need to have stellar grades. Don't get so far ahead of yourself. You haven't even been in to orientation yet.

[kneedrag]

^^^
mass mailing for NEXT summer?
I'm gonna be a 1L at emory, I know 1L summer associate jobs are close to impossible of landing, but when should I start the mass mailing. Won't hurt to try. think I read in Law School Confidential that the consensus says November 1st.

Patience, grasshopper. Focus on doing everything you can scholastically to earn one of those positions before sending employers any hamster cage lining. You and they are barred from communicating with each other, anyway: http://www.nalp.org/interpretations#1Ls

You realize we were just seeing that a top Atlanta firm is taking 3 1Ls. You need to have stellar grades. Don't get so far ahead of yourself. You haven't even been in to orientation yet.

In reality, you need more to be a diversity candidate or IP.

don't bank on a 1L SA, try, just make sure you end up doing something legal that summer and it won't cut against you come 2L OCI.

[Anonymous User]

Is it time to get this thread up and running again for the new OCI season. I had some screeners with ATL firms today. Hopefully they translate to some callbacks.