2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools Forum

[legends159]

I'm glad rayiner came in to make sense of this information. If only he had done so earlier we could've shaved off 15 pages of "zOMG Duke, NYU, Vanderbilt sucks etc"

[Ikki]

IF the NJL report occurred before the crash, what do you guys think can be interpreted from the data? Other than the percentage that got no offers.

[handlesthetruth]

.

[09042014]

IF the NJL report occurred before the crash, what do you guys think can be interpreted from the data? Other than the percentage that got no offers.

Having a SA with a new york firm summer of 2009 was win.

[09042014]

Should I be totally put off of IU Bloomington because of this (not in top 50!), or is there a reasonable explanation?

Hypothesis: Some Indiana firms might be medium law, but not NLJ250.

You can test it by looking up Indiana firms on NALP, and seeing if their entire firm (all offices) add up to less than 160 lawyers, but still pays six figures.

I bet you won't find many. But it's a possibility.

[Fark-o-vision]

Should I be totally put off of IU Bloomington because of this (not in top 50!), or is there a reasonable explanation?

Hypothesis: Some Indiana firms might be medium law, but not NLJ250.

You can test it by looking up Indiana firms on NALP, and seeing if their entire firm (all offices) add up to less than 160 lawyers, but still pays six figures.

I bet you won't find many. But it's a possibility.

Yeah, the only excuse (and I'm not saying I buy it) is that they are pretty upfront that they don't focus on biglaw placement because, well, they aren't going to get it. Supposedly their focus on medium, small, government, etc. has garnered good results for them, but I can't testify to it. that's just the way they sell it. Remember that their major markets seem to be Indianapolis and Louisville, where you might make market but probably won't be NLJ250.

[spondee]

Many 2010 grads were deferred, too, and some haven't started working at their firms yet. They might've been lucky enough to get an offer, but they won't show up on this chart yet.

[09042014]

Should I be totally put off of IU Bloomington because of this (not in top 50!), or is there a reasonable explanation?

Hypothesis: Some Indiana firms might be medium law, but not NLJ250.

You can test it by looking up Indiana firms on NALP, and seeing if their entire firm (all offices) add up to less than 160 lawyers, but still pays six figures.

I bet you won't find many. But it's a possibility.

Yeah, the only excuse (and I'm not saying I buy it) is that they are pretty upfront that they don't focus on biglaw placement because, well, they aren't going to get it. Supposedly their focus on medium, small, government, etc. has garnered good results for them, but I can't testify to it. that's just the way they sell it. Remember that their major markets seem to be Indianapolis and Louisville, where you might make market but probably won't be NLJ250.

I bet even in Indie and Louisville most market paying firms are NLJ250

[KMaine]

Dammit so I can't financially justify going to Cornell at sticker?

It depends on your risk/reward calculus. I personally think C/O 2013 will be in decent shape at least within T14 (back over 50% NLJ250 placement), with C/O 2014 being somewhat better. It won't be 2006, 2007 when below median people from CCN were getting V10 offers, but it might be as good as C/O 2004 (did OCI in the 2001-2002 recession) when MVPNDNC placed in the 50-55% range.

Is Penn that much better than Cornell? Like is it worth waiting a year to retake the LSAT just to aim for Penn?

No.

I agree only because the retake is a risk. If you are certain that you can do better, you may get some more money at Cornell and/or Penn. I ultimately made my decision between schools 7-14 based on personal factors. Your chances at Biglaw/Clerkships/Very Elite Firms may be marginally increased by going to MVP over Cornell, but I don't think the difference is strong enough to overcome significant $ or a significant personal preference.

[beach_terror]

Should I be totally put off of IU Bloomington because of this (not in top 50!), or is there a reasonable explanation?

Hypothesis: Some Indiana firms might be medium law, but not NLJ250.

You can test it by looking up Indiana firms on NALP, and seeing if their entire firm (all offices) add up to less than 160 lawyers, but still pays six figures.

I bet you won't find many. But it's a possibility.

Yeah, the only excuse (and I'm not saying I buy it) is that they are pretty upfront that they don't focus on biglaw placement because, well, they aren't going to get it. Supposedly their focus on medium, small, government, etc. has garnered good results for them, but I can't testify to it. that's just the way they sell it. Remember that their major markets seem to be Indianapolis and Louisville, where you might make market but probably won't be NLJ250.

Seems like the list (or another list) would be more useful if it listed %s of grads at firms making market pay in that region. NLJ250 is still useful, but yeah, just sayin'.

[Fark-o-vision]

Should I be totally put off of IU Bloomington because of this (not in top 50!), or is there a reasonable explanation?

Hypothesis: Some Indiana firms might be medium law, but not NLJ250.

You can test it by looking up Indiana firms on NALP, and seeing if their entire firm (all offices) add up to less than 160 lawyers, but still pays six figures.

I bet you won't find many. But it's a possibility.

Yeah, the only excuse (and I'm not saying I buy it) is that they are pretty upfront that they don't focus on biglaw placement because, well, they aren't going to get it. Supposedly their focus on medium, small, government, etc. has garnered good results for them, but I can't testify to it. that's just the way they sell it. Remember that their major markets seem to be Indianapolis and Louisville, where you might make market but probably won't be NLJ250.

I bet even in Indie and Louisville most market paying firms are NLJ250

I guess I may have overstated the "probably."

[Knock]

Any idea the rate of no-offers for different markets for this past SA class?

[bk1]

Dammit so I can't financially justify going to Cornell at sticker?

It depends on your risk/reward calculus. I personally think C/O 2013 will be in decent shape at least within T14 (back over 50% NLJ250 placement), with C/O 2014 being somewhat better. It won't be 2006, 2007 when below median people from CCN were getting V10 offers, but it might be as good as C/O 2004 (did OCI in the 2001-2002 recession) when MVPNDNC placed in the 50-55% range.

So you're saying that they all will be placing more than 50% of their class into the NLJ250 at OCI this fall?

[09042014]

Any idea the rate of no-offers for different markets for this past SA class?

Some firms are available on Above the law. But the NLJ data should be available within the week. I wish they broke SA data down by school. That would give us a lot of valuable data.

[rayiner]

Dammit so I can't financially justify going to Cornell at sticker?

It depends on your risk/reward calculus. I personally think C/O 2013 will be in decent shape at least within T14 (back over 50% NLJ250 placement), with C/O 2014 being somewhat better. It won't be 2006, 2007 when below median people from CCN were getting V10 offers, but it might be as good as C/O 2004 (did OCI in the 2001-2002 recession) when MVPNDNC placed in the 50-55% range.

So you're saying that they all will be placing more than 50% of their class into the NLJ250 at OCI this fall?

Remember that there is a big difference between the NLJ250 number and the OCI outcomes.

NLJ250 % = oci_% * offer_rate - clerkship_% - government_% + 3L_hiring_%.

So let's take Michigan's data from this year. About 45% NLJ250, with 8% federal clerkships. Assume that everyone with a federal clerkship got an SA. Assume also that the overall offer rate for Michigan students was about 85%. That means about 60% of the class got something out of 2L OCI. Maybe 70% could have gotten something when you factor in all of the PI people, etc.

[BruceWayne]

Dammit so I can't financially justify going to Cornell at sticker?

It depends on your risk/reward calculus. I personally think C/O 2013 will be in decent shape at least within T14 (back over 50% NLJ250 placement), with C/O 2014 being somewhat better. It won't be 2006, 2007 when below median people from CCN were getting V10 offers, but it might be as good as C/O 2004 (did OCI in the 2001-2002 recession) when MVPNDNC placed in the 50-55% range.

I'm curious where you're getting this CCN grouping from since in every year they've (NYU) placed worse than at least one of MVPBDN and last year worse than 3 of them. In addition, they've never placed as well or better than CC.

[FiveSermon]

Dammit so I can't financially justify going to Cornell at sticker?

It depends on your risk/reward calculus. I personally think C/O 2013 will be in decent shape at least within T14 (back over 50% NLJ250 placement), with C/O 2014 being somewhat better. It won't be 2006, 2007 when below median people from CCN were getting V10 offers, but it might be as good as C/O 2004 (did OCI in the 2001-2002 recession) when MVPNDNC placed in the 50-55% range.

I'm curious where you're getting this CCN grouping from since in every year they've placed worse than at least one of MVPBDN and last year worse than 3 of them. In addition, they've never placed as well or better than CC.

That's not really the point here. Cornell has outplaced Duke 2/3 of the last 3 classes. People don't really care. CCN is just...there.

It's probably due to their higher LSAT medians. If you look at all the tiers they almost perfectly correspond to LSAT medians. HYS. CCN. The rest of T14.

[rundoxierun]

Dammit so I can't financially justify going to Cornell at sticker?

It depends on your risk/reward calculus. I personally think C/O 2013 will be in decent shape at least within T14 (back over 50% NLJ250 placement), with C/O 2014 being somewhat better. It won't be 2006, 2007 when below median people from CCN were getting V10 offers, but it might be as good as C/O 2004 (did OCI in the 2001-2002 recession) when MVPNDNC placed in the 50-55% range.

I'm curious where you're getting this CCN grouping from since in every year they've placed worse than at least one of MVPBDN and last year worse than 3 of them. In addition, they've never placed as well or better than CC.

My god man, you are really adamant about this. CCN doesnt exist in real life anyway. The only "tier" within the T-14 I have ever heard of in real life is HYS.

ETA: law schools are pretty tiny. 5-10% swings can result from completely random factors. Stop making fine lines within school rankings.

[Magnificent]

Dammit so I can't financially justify going to Cornell at sticker?

It depends on your risk/reward calculus. I personally think C/O 2013 will be in decent shape at least within T14 (back over 50% NLJ250 placement), with C/O 2014 being somewhat better. It won't be 2006, 2007 when below median people from CCN were getting V10 offers, but it might be as good as C/O 2004 (did OCI in the 2001-2002 recession) when MVPNDNC placed in the 50-55% range.

I'm curious where you're getting this CCN grouping from since in every year they've placed worse than at least one of MVPBDN and last year worse than 3 of them. In addition, they've never placed as well or better than CC.

dude they won't respond to you

just like they kept ignoring my points

for some reason we have people trying to conform reality to their preconceived notions....as a result there has been alot of denial going on in this thread

[BruceWayne]

That's not really the point here. Cornell has outplaced Duke 2/3 of the last 3 classes. People don't really care. CCN is just...there.

It's probably due to their higher LSAT medians. If you look at all the tiers they almost perfectly correspond to LSAT medians. HYS. CCN. The rest of T14.

That makes sense if that's why, but from his/her post, it looks like he was talking about career placement.

My god man, you are really adamant about this. CCN doesnt exist in real life anyway. The only "tier" within the T-14 I have ever heard of in real life is HYS.

Yeah I know, that's why I'm asking. In real life it doesn't exist but on here it seems to. There's a lot of things on here like that; I'm just wondering why/where TLS gets a lot of their jargon from. See: 70 percent of "CCN" getting jobs from OCI, 50 percent at "MVBP", and "Michigan is declining" etc.

[FiveSermon]

That's not really the point here. Cornell has outplaced Duke 2/3 of the last 3 classes. People don't really care. CCN is just...there.

It's probably due to their higher LSAT medians. If you look at all the tiers they almost perfectly correspond to LSAT medians. HYS. CCN. The rest of T14.

That makes sense if that's why, but from his/her post, it looks like he was talking about career placement.

My god man, you are really adamant about this. CCN doesnt exist in real life anyway. The only "tier" within the T-14 I have ever heard of in real life is HYS.

Yeah I know, that's why I'm asking. In real life it doesn't exist but on here it seems to. There's a lot of things on here like that; I'm just wondering why/where TLS gets a lot of their jargon from. See: 70 percent of "CCN" getting jobs from OCI, 50 percent at "MVBP", and "Michigan is declining" etc.

I think we can properly attribute it to TLS's tendency to view the LSAT as some kind of IQ test. Higher LSAT median = smarter students. 168 median? Stupid school. 169? Kind of dumb but ok. 170? Average. 173? Hi there Harvard.

[Marionberry]

Nobody really has any fucking idea what they're talking about. Take the rankings for what they are, but don't try to read too much into them.

[rayiner]

Dammit so I can't financially justify going to Cornell at sticker?

It depends on your risk/reward calculus. I personally think C/O 2013 will be in decent shape at least within T14 (back over 50% NLJ250 placement), with C/O 2014 being somewhat better. It won't be 2006, 2007 when below median people from CCN were getting V10 offers, but it might be as good as C/O 2004 (did OCI in the 2001-2002 recession) when MVPNDNC placed in the 50-55% range.

I'm curious where you're getting this CCN grouping from since in every year they've (NYU) placed worse than at least one of MVPBDN and last year worse than 3 of them. In addition, they've never placed as well or better than CC.

The 2011 OCI data, which has CLS and NYU tied at ~70% placement out of OCI. Also, the scads of NYU grads at every V10 I've seen the summer class lists for.

[rman1201]

Nobody really has any fucking idea what they're talking about. Take the rankings for what they are, but don't try to read too much into them.

TINTCR. These rankings are extremely helpful if you're Biglaw or bust and plan on entering law school in 2007.

[PomasThynchon]

Nobody really has any fucking idea what they're talking about. Take the rankings for what they are, but don't try to read too much into them. Out of my mouth comes lots of caca

FTFY