Biglawyers. Are any of you happy? Was this job better than others you've had? Forum

[Alive97]

4-5k would take years to pay back 45k plus your lost earnings and career advancement.

If you actually love your career and its sustainable for a middle class or better lifestyle you would be insane to go to law school.

Says the most bitter person on this board.

[Danger Zone]

4-5k would take years to pay back 45k plus your lost earnings and career advancement.

If you actually love your career and its sustainable for a middle class or better lifestyle you would be insane to go to law school.

Says the most bitter person on this board.

How many people have to rise up and join the biglaw sucks chorus before it becomes believable to know nothing 0Ls?

Count me among the chorus.

[zot1]

4-5k would take years to pay back 45k plus your lost earnings and career advancement.

If you actually love your career and its sustainable for a middle class or better lifestyle you would be insane to go to law school.

Says the most bitter person on this board.

How many people have to rise up and join the biglaw sucks chorus before it becomes believable to know nothing 0Ls?

Count me among the chorus.

Although I'm not in biglaw myself, I know many people who are and not a single one of them has a different answer than "money" when you ask them what they like about the job.

I also know many counting the days to move in-house.

And a few who have jumped ship altogether for a 50k/year job.

I'd say if you look for it, you'd see tons of dissatisfied people. Also, this is not the first "are people happy in biglaw thread" available on TLS. I don't see many "are government attorneys truly happy" threads popping up.

[180kickflip]

...

[zot1]

You're trying to find someone to agree with you to justify your decision. In that case go to law school, get biglaw, then come and comment here in a few years. Good luck!

[Alive97]

4-5k would take years to pay back 45k plus your lost earnings and career advancement.

If you actually love your career and its sustainable for a middle class or better lifestyle you would be insane to go to law school.

Says the most bitter person on this board.

How many people have to rise up and join the biglaw sucks chorus before it becomes believable to know nothing 0Ls?

Count me among the chorus.

It is possible to know what one is getting into when entering law school, and to be far from a know nothing.

Mod: outed and warned for 0L in employment forum.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

Asking for a friend...

You can't go to law school assuming you will do well enough to get a big law job. Even if you're the most brilliant person ever, you can get really ill or maybe a close relative dies during 1L and then your plan is out the window.

I don't think the debt would be worth the raise at the job.

Thank you for the response. Definitely true that even at a t10, biglaw isn't any sort of guarantee

Granted that maybe the lower top 7-14 these days is actually different from CCN, but biglaw is pretty achievable for those with work experience (and many of those without) CCN and above... that said, the reason not to go to law school is because biglaw is a terrible goal. And, generally people should not go to law school thinking that they will do public interest or government, because most people end up rationalizing some large pro bono case their future law firm won and go on saying as a 2L/3L, "I'm proud to be going to work at Such, and Such, and the Other Guy LLP, because of it's commitment to x." --And no one should go through life being that large of a hypocrite.

Ultimately, it's all weighing money vs. leisure (/and basic health and living), but if money is your driver above all else, then law is poor answer and should only be a fallback position--the business people typically make more for less student debt, not to mention that there are other options these days than just finance, law and medicine.

[krads153]

^Yeah, like coding bootcamp for 9 weeks, come out making 100K a year... not sure how job security is in knowing just Ruby, but that's a lot faster/easier route than others.

[Danger Zone]

It is possible to know what one is getting into when entering law school, and to be far from a know nothing.

Mod: outed and warned for 0L in employment forum.

Maybe know nothing is too strong, but doesn't it seem relatively obvious that people who actually work at big firms have a way better understanding about, uh, working at a big law firm? Compared to someone who has never even been to a single law school class?

[Anonymous User]

I actually prefer it better to legal aid centers I've interned in. In my LS clinic, when the professor/legal aid lawyer learned I was going to big law, s/he asked how I'd feel about defending the big companies when they dropped toxic chemicals in the water and killed a million whales. When I explained how whales travel in small matriarchal groups and communicate with other groups to keep several miles distance from one another and that therefore killing a million whales in one dump was unlikely, s/he replied this was typical rationalizing and I will fit right one in with the other greedy lawyers. This particular lawyer owned multiple properties by inheritance, and was bringing in a fair share from each one.

I was scolded me pretty severely for leaving to see an immediate family member who suffered a brain injury in a car accident without waiting for a reply to grant me permission when they needed my list of something unrelated to the subject matter of the clinic for a political conference they were going to. Needless to say, I got my worst grade in law school for not putting the clinic first. I never complained about any of it, but this same person would cancel all activity if their child had an ear infection, but a loved one's brain injury was not an acceptable excuse as they will still have the brain injury in a few days.

In big law, the hours are rough but I have no doubt that even if a family member suffered only a mild injury and something critically important was due the next day, I'd be sent off. While there are definitely crazy people in big law, my experience has been the free market is much better at keeping out sociopaths than legal aid where keeping one's job is not performance based. I'm not saying big law is great, but that legal jobs are almost uniformly shitty.

[Anonymous User]

In big law, the hours are rough but I have no doubt that even if a family member suffered only a mild injury and something critically important was due the next day, I'd be sent off.

I don't know about that - I know of people in biglaw with cancer undergoing chemotherapy who were still getting ASAP research emails while they were getting treatment. A lot of it depends on who you work for.

But yes, there are a lot of "trust fund" kids in public interest - they are probably the only people who should be pursuing law in the first place these days, given how expensive it is to attend.

And non profits vary depending on if they are unionized or not. On average, I'd say non profits work considerably less than biglawyers (still 40 hours a week though), but I do know some people who pull 60 hour weeks in non-profits as well.

[Danger Zone]

I actually prefer it better to legal aid centers I've interned in. In my LS clinic, when the professor/legal aid lawyer learned I was going to big law, s/he asked how I'd feel about defending the big companies when they dropped toxic chemicals in the water and killed a million whales. When I explained how whales travel in small matriarchal groups and communicate with other groups to keep several miles distance from one another and that therefore killing a million whales in one dump was unlikely, s/he replied this was typical rationalizing and I will fit right one in with the other greedy lawyers. This particular lawyer owned multiple properties by inheritance, and was bringing in a fair share from each one.

I was scolded me pretty severely for leaving to see an immediate family member who suffered a brain injury in a car accident without waiting for a reply to grant me permission when they needed my list of something unrelated to the subject matter of the clinic for a political conference they were going to. Needless to say, I got my worst grade in law school for not putting the clinic first. I never complained about any of it, but this same person would cancel all activity if their child had an ear infection, but a loved one's brain injury was not an acceptable excuse as they will still have the brain injury in a few days.

In big law, the hours are rough but I have no doubt that even if a family member suffered only a mild injury and something critically important was due the next day, I'd be sent off. While there are definitely crazy people in big law, my experience has been the free market is much better at keeping out sociopaths than legal aid where keeping one's job is not performance based. I'm not saying big law is great, but that legal jobs are almost uniformly shitty.

Sounds like you just had a horrible professor

[zot1]

I actually prefer it better to legal aid centers I've interned in. In my LS clinic, when the professor/legal aid lawyer learned I was going to big law, s/he asked how I'd feel about defending the big companies when they dropped toxic chemicals in the water and killed a million whales. When I explained how whales travel in small matriarchal groups and communicate with other groups to keep several miles distance from one another and that therefore killing a million whales in one dump was unlikely, s/he replied this was typical rationalizing and I will fit right one in with the other greedy lawyers. This particular lawyer owned multiple properties by inheritance, and was bringing in a fair share from each one.

I was scolded me pretty severely for leaving to see an immediate family member who suffered a brain injury in a car accident without waiting for a reply to grant me permission when they needed my list of something unrelated to the subject matter of the clinic for a political conference they were going to. Needless to say, I got my worst grade in law school for not putting the clinic first. I never complained about any of it, but this same person would cancel all activity if their child had an ear infection, but a loved one's brain injury was not an acceptable excuse as they will still have the brain injury in a few days.

In big law, the hours are rough but I have no doubt that even if a family member suffered only a mild injury and something critically important was due the next day, I'd be sent off. While there are definitely crazy people in big law, my experience has been the free market is much better at keeping out sociopaths than legal aid where keeping one's job is not performance based. I'm not saying big law is great, but that legal jobs are almost uniformly shitty.

Sounds like you just had a horrible professor

[Anonymous User]

I actually prefer it better to legal aid centers I've interned in. In my LS clinic, when the professor/legal aid lawyer learned I was going to big law, s/he asked how I'd feel about defending the big companies when they dropped toxic chemicals in the water and killed a million whales. When I explained how whales travel in small matriarchal groups and communicate with other groups to keep several miles distance from one another and that therefore killing a million whales in one dump was unlikely, s/he replied this was typical rationalizing and I will fit right one in with the other greedy lawyers. This particular lawyer owned multiple properties by inheritance, and was bringing in a fair share from each one.

I was scolded me pretty severely for leaving to see an immediate family member who suffered a brain injury in a car accident without waiting for a reply to grant me permission when they needed my list of something unrelated to the subject matter of the clinic for a political conference they were going to. Needless to say, I got my worst grade in law school for not putting the clinic first. I never complained about any of it, but this same person would cancel all activity if their child had an ear infection, but a loved one's brain injury was not an acceptable excuse as they will still have the brain injury in a few days.

In big law, the hours are rough but I have no doubt that even if a family member suffered only a mild injury and something critically important was due the next day, I'd be sent off. While there are definitely crazy people in big law, my experience has been the free market is much better at keeping out sociopaths than legal aid where keeping one's job is not performance based. I'm not saying big law is great, but that legal jobs are almost uniformly shitty.

Sounds like you just had a horrible professor

Right, but my experience has been that unless someone is a rainmaker, there are market forces that control how crazy somebody can be to last in big law. The clients can be crazy and people definitely can get nasty when they are stressed, but at least at my firm none of the partners are abusive. You may have a crazy junior or midlevel, but these people likely get filtered out. It's also possible that my firm happens to focus on not employing assholes like how an admissions dean at my alma matter told me they use personal statements to filter out assholes. It might also be I don't really take things people say when they're stressed seriously, and the only times people have been nasty to me have been late and night when they clearly need a break.

[Anonymous User]

Right, but my experience has been that unless someone is a rainmaker, there are market forces that control how crazy somebody can be to last in big law. The clients can be crazy and people definitely can get nasty when they are stressed, but at least at my firm none of the partners are abusive. You may have a crazy junior or midlevel, but these people likely get filtered out. It's also possible that my firm happens to focus on not employing assholes like how an admissions dean at my alma matter told me they use personal statements to filter out assholes.

Define crazy. If anything I think senior associates and young partners (none of whom bring in business) are more likely to be like your legal aid professor than rainmakers.

[Anonymous User]

Right, but my experience has been that unless someone is a rainmaker, there are market forces that control how crazy somebody can be to last in big law. The clients can be crazy and people definitely can get nasty when they are stressed, but at least at my firm none of the partners are abusive. You may have a crazy junior or midlevel, but these people likely get filtered out. It's also possible that my firm happens to focus on not employing assholes like how an admissions dean at my alma matter told me they use personal statements to filter out assholes.

Define crazy. If anything I think senior associates and young partners (none of whom bring in business) are more likely to be like your legal aid professor than rainmakers.

This is my experience as well. Rainmakers care less about details, etc. and also are typically older, so they are probably closer to retirement and more chill. They are also established so if something minor goes wrong, it's not the end of the world.

Young partners and seniors have a lot more to lose than rainmakers and expect everything to be perfect ime.

[Desert Fox]

4-5k would take years to pay back 45k plus your lost earnings and career advancement.

If you actually love your career and its sustainable for a middle class or better lifestyle you would be insane to go to law school.

Says the most bitter person on this board.

Op already has a career they love. Why would you risk that? For a little more money? For prefstoge? Only a fool would risk a career they loved. Not a ton of lawyers both love their job and make a lot of money.

[Desert Fox]

I actually prefer it better to legal aid centers I've interned in. In my LS clinic, when the professor/legal aid lawyer learned I was going to big law, s/he asked how I'd feel about defending the big companies when they dropped toxic chemicals in the water and killed a million whales. When I explained how whales travel in small matriarchal groups and communicate with other groups to keep several miles distance from one another and that therefore killing a million whales in one dump was unlikely, s/he replied this was typical rationalizing and I will fit right one in with the other greedy lawyers. This particular lawyer owned multiple properties by inheritance, and was bringing in a fair share from each one.

I was scolded me pretty severely for leaving to see an immediate family member who suffered a brain injury in a car accident without waiting for a reply to grant me permission when they needed my list of something unrelated to the subject matter of the clinic for a political conference they were going to. Needless to say, I got my worst grade in law school for not putting the clinic first. I never complained about any of it, but this same person would cancel all activity if their child had an ear infection, but a loved one's brain injury was not an acceptable excuse as they will still have the brain injury in a few days.

In big law, the hours are rough but I have no doubt that even if a family member suffered only a mild injury and something critically important was due the next day, I'd be sent off. While there are definitely crazy people in big law, my experience has been the free market is much better at keeping out sociopaths than legal aid where keeping one's job is not performance based. I'm not saying big law is great, but that legal jobs are almost uniformly shitty.

Nope that same sort of asshole exists in biglaw too. Big law is horrendous at keeping psychopaths out.

I think to escape the psychopaths you need a place with non lawyer culture. Like in house or non elite government gigs (i.e. Not ADA or DOJ)

[Anonymous User]

I'm in my second year of biglaw as a litigator. I've had very little responsibility, virtually no partner contact, and no trouble billing 2200+ hours a year. That means hours upon hours of dumb, meaningless work that hardly ever makes it into final work product or helps the client in any way.

Here are some facts about litigating in biglaw that law students may not realize:

1. You will usually be on the wrong side of the case you're working on. Clients don't hire big law firms when they have good arguments. There are exceptions, but they prove the rule.

2. Most cases that you will work on will settle well before trial. If and when they do, the work product that you spent your nights and weekends producing will disappear into the void. If anyone remembers your work it's probably because you delivered late or because you made a mistake.

3. The cases that don't settle are nightmares. 250 billable hours per month, work every night and weekend, tons of confusion among associates, stressed out emails from partners and senior associates at all hours of the night and weekends. And even then you usually still settle, it just comes on the eve of trial instead of before discovery.

4. Associates who last in biglaw are OCD worry-warts who live to please their superiors. Sure, there is the rare dynamic and brilliant associate who makes an immediate impression upon partners. But most associates who survive do so because they constantly and reflexively think about pleasing their superiors, no matter where they are and no matter what else they're doing -- days, nights and weekends. A backbone, a personal life, and a sense of pride are all liabilities in biglaw.

[Tls2016]

In big law, the hours are rough but I have no doubt that even if a family member suffered only a mild injury and something critically important was due the next day, I'd be sent off.

I don't know about that - I know of people in biglaw with cancer undergoing chemotherapy who were still getting ASAP research emails while they were getting treatment. A lot of it depends on who you work for.

But yes, there are a lot of "trust fund" kids in public interest - they are probably the only people who should be pursuing law in the first place these days, given how expensive it is to attend.

And non profits vary depending on if they are unionized or not. On average, I'd say non profits work considerably less than biglawyers (still 40 hours a week though), but I do know some people who pull 60 hour weeks in non-profits as well.

I've known senior associates that were called while actually in the ER for themselves, not a family member.Same with women in labor. You can be sure that if you left for a family emergency you would be called if someone needed something you had. Yes, people won't keep you at work if a family member has an emergency but they will still call you.
And, once I had to come back to work in the evening after a close friend's funeral after he died in a freak accident. I was able to go to the funeral but I stil had to come back to the office right after.

[Anonymous User]

Right, but my experience has been that unless someone is a rainmaker, there are market forces that control how crazy somebody can be to last in big law. The clients can be crazy and people definitely can get nasty when they are stressed, but at least at my firm none of the partners are abusive. You may have a crazy junior or midlevel, but these people likely get filtered out. It's also possible that my firm happens to focus on not employing assholes like how an admissions dean at my alma matter told me they use personal statements to filter out assholes.

Define crazy. If anything I think senior associates and young partners (none of whom bring in business) are more likely to be like your legal aid professor than rainmakers.

I didn't mean that one was crazy and one wasn't, but was saying that you'd be likelier to overlook craziness if the person brings in business. Sports are a pretty good model of this - teams are likelier to forgive off the field and locker room drama if the player performs.

I agree that young partners are likely to be more demanding for a number of reasons, not least of which is the increased competition in today's market. However, a person would need to have a ton of control to always turn off their craziness when around a superior when the difference between those we consider crazy and those we consider normal tends to turn on the individual's self control. At some point crazy people invariably do something crazy, and likely wouldn't be valuable enough to compensate for their craziness.

[JCougar]

Just found out that someone I know that did FedClerk quit Biglaw after like three months. Was top 5% at a T20.

I'm pretty sure that this meant forfeiting the clerkship bonus. It was an extremely prestigious firm.

I can't imagine how bad Biglaw was if you did all that work to get it, and yet you couldn't stand it for 3 months. I think I could stand anything for at least a year or two.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

Just found out that someone I know that did FedClerk quit Biglaw after like three months. Was top 5% at a T20.

I'm pretty sure that this meant forfeiting the clerkship bonus. It was an extremely prestigious firm.

I can't imagine how bad Biglaw was if you did all that work to get it, and yet you couldn't stand it for 3 months. I think I could stand anything for at least a year or two.

No clerkship prior, but I left within 7 months... most who hate it just leave as soon as a more appealing job comes along. For some people it takes a week to find a more appealing offer and for others it takes years (very dependent on resume, practice group etc.).

[Desert Fox]

COA clerk at my firm left after 2 months. Not the same guy since my firm isn't prestigious.

[zot1]

But the money is good!